2 Corinthians 5:17

2 Cor 5:17 sandra hack polaski shpolaski at btsr.edu
Tue Jul 23 14:09:04 EDT 2002

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens I’m considering the famously terse 2 Cor 5:17a:hWSTE EI TIS EN CRISTW KAINH KTISISwith the help, as it turns out, of my _Precise Parallel NT_ (about whichthere was some discussion on this list a little while ago). Most of thetranslations add both a form of the verb “to be” and a “he is” or “there is”to the phrase:…if any man be in Christ he is a new creature…(KJV)…if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation… (NIV)…if anyone is in Christ there is a new creation… ((NRSV)…whoever is in Christ is a new creation… (NAB)and so forth. The Rheims NT, though, offers this translation:If then any be in Christ a new creature,…making the whole thing the protasis of a statement that will be completed by…the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new.In its favor, this translation requires the addition of fewer elements tomake sense. Against it, it seems to assume an argument that the text hasn’tmade (that in Christ one is a new creature), whereas the other translationshave this assertion being made in this verse.Any ideas?–Sandra Hack Polaski*********************************************Sandra Hack Polaski shpolaski at btsr.eduAssociate Professor of New TestamentBaptist Theological Seminary at Richmond

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdensGal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens

2 Cor 5:17 c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jul 23 16:02:31 EDT 2002

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens on 7/23/02 11:09 AM, sandra hack polaski wrote:> I’m considering the famously terse 2 Cor 5:17a:> hWSTE EI TIS EN CRISTW KAINH KTISIS> with the help, as it turns out, of my _Precise Parallel NT_ (about which> there was some discussion on this list a little while ago). Most of the> translations add both a form of the verb “to be” and a “he is” or “there is”> to the phrase:> …if any man be in Christ he is a new creature…(KJV)> …if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation… (NIV)> …if anyone is in Christ there is a new creation… ((NRSV)> …whoever is in Christ is a new creation… (NAB)> and so forth. The Rheims NT, though, offers this translation:> If then any be in Christ a new creature,…> making the whole thing the protasis of a statement that will be completed by> …the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new.> In its favor, this translation requires the addition of fewer elements to> make sense. Against it, it seems to assume an argument that the text hasn’t> made (that in Christ one is a new creature), whereas the other translations> have this assertion being made in this verse.> Any ideas?> –Sandra Hack PolaskiCAIRE Sandra,2COR. 5:17 hWSTE EI TIS EN CRISTWi, KAINH KTISIS: TA ARCAIA PARHLQEN, IDOUGEGONEN KAINA: Following a hunch, I took a look at the Vulgate . . .2Cor. 5:17 si qua ergo in Christo nova creatura vetera transierunt eccefacta sunt novaIt appears that The Rheims NT may have followed the Vulgate in making EI TIS EN CRISTWi, KAINH KTISIS the protasis.. . . and then, following habit I took a look at H.A.W. Meyer who faultsthis reading ” . . . the apodosis would contain nothing else than was in theprotasis; besides the prefixing of EN CRISTWi would not be adequatelyaccounted for. “. . . following another habit I took a look at H. Alford who similar toMeyer states “. . . the second member would be a mere reassertion of thefirst.” Not sure I understand Meyer’s comment about the position of EN CRISTWi.Greetings,Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdensGal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens

2 Cor 5:17 Mark DelCogliano cassian at dellepro.com
Tue Jul 23 16:47:07 EDT 2002

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens > on 7/23/02 11:09 AM, sandra hack polaski wrote:> > > I’m considering the famously terse 2 Cor 5:17a:> > hWSTE EI TIS EN CRISTW KAINH KTISIS> > …The Rheims NT, though, offers this translation:> > If then any be in Christ a new creature,…Clayton Stirling Bartholomew wrote:: > 2Cor. 5:17 si qua ergo in Christo nova creatura vetera transierunt ecce> facta sunt nova> > It appears that The Rheims NT may have followed the Vulgate in making> EI TIS EN CRISTWi, KAINH KTISIS the protasis.Clay’s hunch is on the money. The [Douay]-Rheims translation was made fromthe Vulgate. Interestingly, the Latin here is far looser than the NT usuallyexhibits: I suppose QUA ERGO attempts to approximate the hWSTE, indicatingresult. But there is nothing in the Latin corresponding to the Greek TIS,which may validate the Rheims translation. Indeed, that is a perfectlyacceptable way of construing the Latin.In any event, I don’t the Rheims translation can be relied on forunderstanding the Greek, at least in 2 Cor 5:17.Mark DelCogliano

 

Gal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdensGal 6:2 and 6:5 – bearing burdens

[] 2 Cor 5:7 Lauren Albrecht laurenski5485 at yahoo.com
Wed Jun 10 12:37:00 EDT 2009

 

[] Galatians 1:6-7 [] 2 Cor 5:7 2 Cor 5:7  Anyone know why KJV has this whole Scripture in parenthesis?  I haven’t found much on the subject of ‘walking by faith’; which is actually walking through (dia Strong# 1223). Any previous blogs on this subject? Thanks if this ‘makes it’ to the question forum. Lauren Albrecht

 

[] Galatians 1:6-7[] 2 Cor 5:7

[] 2 Cor 5:7 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Jun 10 13:03:49 EDT 2009

 

[] 2 Cor 5:7 [] FYI: Oxyrhynchus Papyri available at Internet Archive On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Lauren Albrecht wrote:> 2 Cor 5:7> Anyone know why KJV has this whole Scripture in parenthesis? I > haven’t found much on the subject of ‘walking by faith’; which is > actually walking through (dia Strong# 1223). Any previous blogs on > this subject?> Thanks if this ‘makes it’ to the question forum.Note that it is in parentheses, not in brackets, which latter might seem to indicate some question about reliability of the Greek text being translated. I think the parentheses here simply mean that the editors understood this sentence as an explanatory note about the proposition just stated previous to this. The verse in question is certainly present in the TR, from which KJV translated.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] 2 Cor 5:7[] FYI: Oxyrhynchus Papyri available at Internet Archive

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Jorge Chiri Gutierrez jchiri at bo.net
Sun Jun 7 17:47:31 EDT 1998

 

Perfect outside the indicative Perfect outside the indicative I would want some ideas for this verse:It is very important to read the words KAINE PTISIS like “new creation”instead new person or new creature inside. The most popular versions of theEnglish bibles and in the Spanish, empathize this words en relation to theperson. Concretely, this verse is not for evangelism.The context is describing about the relation between the peoples form the 1Cor 5: 1-13. The new relation between people en Jesus Christ is now in a newcreation. The correct translation of the KAINE PTISIS is in the Gal. 6:15.I would want to say and give more arguments. Thank’s very much. I do not know write English very well. Excuse me. (Gracias a J. Stamm por las observaciones de mi inglés. Esta segunda notasolo corrige errores de escritura)Jorge Chiri GutierrezCasiila 556Tel. 52348Fax. 52348Cochabamba – Bolivia.

 

Perfect outside the indicativePerfect outside the indicative

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 12 09:56:54 EDT 1998

 

Clement & Polycarp LXX 1 Kings 8:11 At 5:47 PM -0400 6/07/98, Jorge Chiri Gutierrez wrote:>I would want some ideas for this verse:> >It is very important to read the words KAINE PTISIS like “new creation”>instead new person or new creature inside. The most popular versions of the>English bibles and in the Spanish, empathize this words en relation to the>person. Concretely, this verse is not for evangelism.> >The context is describing about the relation between the peoples form the 1>Cor 5: 1-13. The new relation between people en Jesus Christ is now in a new>creation. The correct translation of the KAINE PTISIS is in the Gal. 6:15.> >I would want to say and give more arguments.Although several days have passed, I see that there’s still been noresponse to this post, and for that reason I’ll leap in and take a stab atit.(a) I think you mean KAINH KTISIS.(b) I think you should not feel obligated to write in English; go ahead andwrite your post in Spanish–some of our members will be able to read itwhile others won’t; for my part, I think I can understand the Spanish wellenough although I could not possibly respond in it. Certainly there isnothing in our rules that says English is the only permissible language ofdiscussion.I am not altogether clear on what you are trying to argue above, and that’swhy I suggest that perhaps you should go on and write in Spanish. I think Isee the sense for KAINH KTISIS that you are arguing FOR, but I can’t quitefigure out what interpretation of it that you are arguing AGAINST.My own understanding of the phrase in 2 Cor 5:17 is that transformation ofthe individual believer begins with faith’s inception and the believer’sincorporation through baptism into the believing community, the “body” ofChrist, and that from this point the believer lives simultaneously in theflesh and in “this evil world age” and in the spirit and in “the age tocome.” But it is the newly-begun life in “the age to come” that makes itpossible to say that this believer is KAINH KTISIS, “a brand new creature.”Now it may be that some of my own theological assumptions have entered intothe above formulation, but I have really meant to express no more than myunderstanding of the way Paul is using his terms within his ownmore-or-less consistent phraseology, and I’ll readily admit that myunderstanding of Paul’s phraseology has been shaped by Bultmann’s chapteron “Pauline anthropology” in his _Theology of the NT_.Now to the more precise point or question: does KTISIS here refer to thecreature or to the whole of creation? I think it refers to BOTH, althoughprimarily or in the first place to the creature; yet I think it refers tothe whole of creation in a sense also, because the newly-created individualis not an isolated entity created by God in and for him/herself but ratheris an integral part of the whole process of God’s recreation of theuniverse, even if the full recreation of the universe has yet to beconsummated.Now, have I rightly understood your question, and if so, does this help atall. Now that I’ve expressed myself, I would expect that others would shootdown my view or subject it to their own critique.Regards, cwcCarl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

 

Clement & PolycarpLXX 1 Kings 8:11

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 12 09:56:54 EDT 1998

 

Clement & Polycarp LXX 1 Kings 8:11 At 5:47 PM -0400 6/07/98, Jorge Chiri Gutierrez wrote:>I would want some ideas for this verse:> >It is very important to read the words KAINE PTISIS like “new creation”>instead new person or new creature inside. The most popular versions of the>English bibles and in the Spanish, empathize this words en relation to the>person. Concretely, this verse is not for evangelism.> >The context is describing about the relation between the peoples form the 1>Cor 5: 1-13. The new relation between people en Jesus Christ is now in a new>creation. The correct translation of the KAINE PTISIS is in the Gal. 6:15.> >I would want to say and give more arguments.Although several days have passed, I see that there’s still been noresponse to this post, and for that reason I’ll leap in and take a stab atit.(a) I think you mean KAINH KTISIS.(b) I think you should not feel obligated to write in English; go ahead andwrite your post in Spanish–some of our members will be able to read itwhile others won’t; for my part, I think I can understand the Spanish wellenough although I could not possibly respond in it. Certainly there isnothing in our rules that says English is the only permissible language ofdiscussion.I am not altogether clear on what you are trying to argue above, and that’swhy I suggest that perhaps you should go on and write in Spanish. I think Isee the sense for KAINH KTISIS that you are arguing FOR, but I can’t quitefigure out what interpretation of it that you are arguing AGAINST.My own understanding of the phrase in 2 Cor 5:17 is that transformation ofthe individual believer begins with faith’s inception and the believer’sincorporation through baptism into the believing community, the “body” ofChrist, and that from this point the believer lives simultaneously in theflesh and in “this evil world age” and in the spirit and in “the age tocome.” But it is the newly-begun life in “the age to come” that makes itpossible to say that this believer is KAINH KTISIS, “a brand new creature.”Now it may be that some of my own theological assumptions have entered intothe above formulation, but I have really meant to express no more than myunderstanding of the way Paul is using his terms within his ownmore-or-less consistent phraseology, and I’ll readily admit that myunderstanding of Paul’s phraseology has been shaped by Bultmann’s chapteron “Pauline anthropology” in his _Theology of the NT_.Now to the more precise point or question: does KTISIS here refer to thecreature or to the whole of creation? I think it refers to BOTH, althoughprimarily or in the first place to the creature; yet I think it refers tothe whole of creation in a sense also, because the newly-created individualis not an isolated entity created by God in and for him/herself but ratheris an integral part of the whole process of God’s recreation of theuniverse, even if the full recreation of the universe has yet to beconsummated.Now, have I rightly understood your question, and if so, does this help atall. Now that I’ve expressed myself, I would expect that others would shootdown my view or subject it to their own critique.Regards, cwcCarl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

 

Clement & PolycarpLXX 1 Kings 8:11

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Braulio Barillas parakal at quetzal.net
Sat Jun 13 00:12:07 EDT 1998

 

The Third Heaven The Third Heaven (At 09:56 12/06/98 -0400, you wrote:>At 5:47 PM -0400 6/07/98, Jorge Chiri Gutierrez wrote:>>I would want some ideas for this verse:(snip)>Although several days have passed, I see that there’s still been no>response to this post, and for that reason I’ll leap in and take a stab at>it.(snip)>Regards, cwc>Carl W. Conrad>Department of Classics, Washington University>Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/> >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=parakal at quetzal.netDear B-greeks:I re-mailed to Jorge Chiri last sunday (June 07) in a private mail.I wrote Mr. Chiri in this form because the item isn’t gramatical.Also invite Mr. Chiri to suscribe the list. If he wants to mail me thet’s ok. Greetings BraulioBraulio Barillasparakal at quetzal.net

 

The Third HeavenThe Third Heaven

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Braulio Barillas parakal at quetzal.net
Sat Jun 13 00:12:07 EDT 1998

 

The Third Heaven The Third Heaven (At 09:56 12/06/98 -0400, you wrote:>At 5:47 PM -0400 6/07/98, Jorge Chiri Gutierrez wrote:>>I would want some ideas for this verse:(snip)>Although several days have passed, I see that there’s still been no>response to this post, and for that reason I’ll leap in and take a stab at>it.(snip)>Regards, cwc>Carl W. Conrad>Department of Classics, Washington University>Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/> >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=parakal at quetzal.netDear B-greeks:I re-mailed to Jorge Chiri last sunday (June 07) in a private mail.I wrote Mr. Chiri in this form because the item isn’t gramatical.Also invite Mr. Chiri to suscribe the list. If he wants to mail me thet’s ok. Greetings BraulioBraulio Barillasparakal at quetzal.net

 

The Third HeavenThe Third Heaven

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Jorge Chiri Gutierrez jchiri at bo.net
Sun Jun 7 07:31:19 EDT 1998

 

I would want some ideas for this verse:It is very important to read the words KAINE PTISIS like “new creation”instead new person or new creature inside. The most popular versions of theEnglish bibles and in the spanish, enfatize this words en relation to theperson. Concretely, this verse is not for evangelism.The context is describing about the relation betwen the peoples form the 1Cor 5: 1-13. The new relarion betwen people en Jesus Crist is now in a newcreation. The correct translation of teh KAINE PTISIS is in the Gal. 6:15.I would want to say and give more arguments. Thank’s very much. I do not know write Englis very well. Excuse me.Jorge Chiri GutierrezCasiila 556Tel. 52348Fax. 52348Cochabamba – Bolivia.

 

 

ABOUT 2 Cor 5:17 (Jorge Chiri G.) Jorge Chiri Gutierrez jchiri at bo.net
Sun Jun 7 07:31:19 EDT 1998

 

I would want some ideas for this verse:It is very important to read the words KAINE PTISIS like “new creation”instead new person or new creature inside. The most popular versions of theEnglish bibles and in the spanish, enfatize this words en relation to theperson. Concretely, this verse is not for evangelism.The context is describing about the relation betwen the peoples form the 1Cor 5: 1-13. The new relarion betwen people en Jesus Crist is now in a newcreation. The correct translation of teh KAINE PTISIS is in the Gal. 6:15.I would want to say and give more arguments. Thank’s very much. I do not know write Englis very well. Excuse me.Jorge Chiri GutierrezCasiila 556Tel. 52348Fax. 52348Cochabamba – Bolivia.

 

 

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