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Acts 20:28

cwconrad wrote: several years ago ... I posted a suggestion that the thanksgiving of 1 Cor 1:4-7
1 Corinthians 1:4 wrote:Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῇ χάριτι τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ δοθείσῃ ὑμῖν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 5 ὅτι ἐν παντὶ ἐπλουτίσθητε ἐν αὐτῷ, ἐν παντὶ λόγῳ καὶ πάσῃ γνώσει, 6 καθὼς τὸ μαρτύριον τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐβεβαιώθη ἐν ὑμῖν, 7 ὥστε ὑμᾶς μὴ ὑστερεῖσθαι ἐν μηδενὶ χαρίσματι ἀπεκδεχομένους τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·
is ironic or even sarcastic, in view of the attitudes and behavior of the Corinthian congregation which Paul goes on to critique in some detail throughout the letter.
Greek doesn't seem to use "so called" as much as we do in English. The sense of λεγομένος "are said be" seems to be not so often used or perhaps only a part of the meaning of a broader "so called" in English. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — January 24th, 2014, 8:30 am
Well, these things (along with humour) are always hard to judge and harder to appreciate. I think that during the 20th century when aspect emerged, pretended then reigned in the analysis of verbs, there was a lot of attention given to that one particular clue to meaning. It seems that that fixation on verbal aspect as a trinary discretisation asserted or reinforced the idea that language can be analysed into some thing like a state diagramme. That left questions like this that require a more "softer" analysis on the back burner. Of course when we read something terse it is easier to see that perhaps there is some impoliteness involved. When it is a question of politeness, we really have to take an educated guess at it. As you say, that is something that there is easily going to be a conscensus about. Analysis of language were the outcome of the analysis is a single right answer makes understanding things such as this unnaturally difficult. There is a need to consider what was not said, but could have been said - "Have you just removed your shoes?" (What's that smell like dead fish?), OR what was said, and what people could have easily misunderstood - "Every Christmas Bon bon is a Pulitzer Prize" (Pull-it surprise). Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — January 24th, 2014, 7:51 am
 
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Acts 20:28 wrote:Προσέχετε οὖν ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ Θεοῦ,
I don't have a definite opinion on this, but I think that this could be a mild rebuke (reminder) not to mind each other's business, and get to the job at hand in the face of (coming) outside opposition, rather than quarreling and meddling among themselves. There are two ways of taking the παντὶ, ἐν ᾧ here. One is as all everywhere with out distinction or limitation (all = in every place) and the other is all who are in that particular place (all = don't neglect any one of them) I think that is put mildly because if it was very strongly worded, it could be: διάμενε ἐν τῇ ἐπαύλει / νομῇ σου "Stay in your fold / pasture" (Without respect as a shepherd) βόσκησον τὰ πρόβατα σου "Tend your sheep." (Disorganised sheep or small number) βόσκησον τὸ ἴδικον σου ποίμνιον / τὴν ποίμνην "Tend your own flock." (Emphasise to keep away from others) βόσκησον τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Tend your flock." (Neutral statement, I think) ποίμαινε τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Shepherd your flock." (upgrade to a verb involving more skill) σπούδασον ποιμαίνειν τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Give attention to your shepherding of the flock" (I take commands with σπουδάζω to be an idicator of confidence) πρόσεχε τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Give heed to your flock" (No specific verb is said, because he trusts their judgement) Has anyone else thought about rudeness and politeness in Greek? Could someone criticise my thoughts on the langauge here please.
Well, I've thought about it, one time in particular, several years ago, when I posted a suggestion that the thanksgiving of 1 Cor 1:4-7
1 Cor 1:4 Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῇ χάριτι τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ δοθείσῃ ὑμῖν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 5 ὅτι ἐν παντὶ ἐπλουτίσθητε ἐν αὐτῷ, ἐν παντὶ λόγῳ καὶ πάσῃ γνώσει, 6 καθὼς τὸ μαρτύριον τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐβεβαιώθη ἐν ὑμῖν, 7 ὥστε ὑμᾶς μὴ ὑστερεῖσθαι ἐν μηδενὶ χαρίσματι ἀπεκδεχομένους τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·
is ironic or even sarcastic, in view of the attitudes and behavior of the Corinthian congregation which Paul goes on to critique in some detail throughout the letter. Then there's the obvious sarcasm of Gal 5:12
Ὄφελον καὶ ἀποκόψονται οἱ ἀναστατοῦντες ὑμᾶς.
But this item in Acts 20:28 seems to me a bit more difficult to judge. Why didn't they have emoticons back in those days? It would have helped to gauge things like this. I was a bit surprised, Stephen, that you did not make reference to the dialogue of the risen Jesus with Peter in John 21 and the recurrent, slightly-reformulated imperatives, βόσκε τὰ ἀρνία μου, ποίμαινε τὰ πρόβατά μου, βόσκε τὰ πρόβατά μου. following upon the varied questions, ἀγαπᾷς με;, ἀγαπᾷς με;, φιλεῖς με; -- but regarding that dialogue πολλὰ ἀμφισβητητέον. The question is a fascinating one, but I am doubtful that any wholly satisfying consensus on the matter is to be found. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — January 24th, 2014, 7:01 am
 
Acts 20:28 wrote: Προσέχετε οὖν ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ Θεοῦ,
I don't have a definite opinion on this, but I think that this could be a mild rebuke (reminder) not to mind each other's business, and get to the job at hand in the face of (coming) outside opposition, rather than quarreling and meddling among themselves. There are two ways of taking the παντὶ, ἐν ᾧ here. One is as all everywhere with out distinction or limitation (all = in every place) and the other is all who are in that particular place (all = don't neglect any one of them) I think that is put mildly because if it was very strongly worded, it could be: διάμενε ἐν τῇ ἐπαύλει / νομῇ σου "Stay in your fold / pasture" (Without respect as a shepherd) βόσκησον τὰ πρόβατα σου "Tend your sheep." (Disorganised sheep or small number) βόσκησον τὸ ἴδικον σου ποίμνιον / τὴν ποίμνην "Tend your own flock." (Emphasise to keep away from others) βόσκησον τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Tend your flock." (Neutral statement, I think) ποίμαινε τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Shepherd your flock." (upgrade to a verb involving more skill) σπούδασον ποιμαίνειν τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Give attention to your shepherding of the flock" (I take commands with σπουδάζω to be an idicator of confidence) πρόσεχε τὸ ποίμνιον σου "Give heed to your flock" (No specific verb is said, because he trusts their judgement) Has anyone esle thought about rudeness and politeness in Greek? Could someone criticise my thoughts on the langauge here please. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — January 24th, 2014, 3:27 am