Hebrews 6:6

Heb 6:6 Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Sun Jul 12 15:57:04 EDT 1998

Previous message: Reitzenstein Poimandres 1904 Next message: Rom. 1:4 EN DUNAMEI adverbial or adjectival You wrote:>> To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying aboutsuch ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply tonon-Christians instead?Thanks,Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne College<<I take the antecedent to be “those who have tasted the gift ofenlightenment”. In my estimation, the author wishes those who “taste”Christianity to realize that if they find it unpleasant, they will not beable to receive redemption. If they push away the plate, in other words,there is no other food at hand.And no, I do not think it refers to non-christians- for they have not “tasted”.As someone argued long ago- Hebrews was written to Jewish christians whowere leaving the church and returning to Judaism. This is not right, saysthe author; if you give up on Christ, you will have given up on anypossibility of salvation.Best to all,Jim++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDjwest at highland.net

Previous message: Reitzenstein Poimandres 1904Next message: Rom. 1:4 EN DUNAMEI adverbial or adjectival More information about the mailing list

Hebrews 6 Kelley Mata kmata at westernseminary.edu
Tue Oct 27 19:27:37 EST 1998

 

hO LOGOS hO LOGOS I have always wondered why most translations render parapesontas in Hebrews6:6 as an adverbial participle while all the preceding participles in thatpassage (which are in the same coordinating construction) are translated asadjectival and as conditional. This has always seemed strange to me. Whythe change? Anyone have any suggestions?Serving him with you,Kelley

 

hO LOGOShO LOGOS

Hebrews 6 Kelley Mata kmata at westernseminary.edu
Tue Oct 27 19:27:37 EST 1998

 

hO LOGOS hO LOGOS I have always wondered why most translations render parapesontas in Hebrews6:6 as an adverbial participle while all the preceding participles in thatpassage (which are in the same coordinating construction) are translated asadjectival and as conditional. This has always seemed strange to me. Whythe change? Anyone have any suggestions?Serving him with you,Kelley

 

hO LOGOShO LOGOS

Hebrews 6 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Oct 28 06:46:35 EST 1998

 

LOGOS in John and SOPHIA in Proverbs hO LOGOS At 4:27 PM -0800 10/27/98, Kelley Mata wrote:>I have always wondered why most translations render parapesontas in Hebrews>6:6 as an adverbial participle while all the preceding participles in that>passage (which are in the same coordinating construction) are translated as>adjectival and as conditional. This has always seemed strange to me. Why>the change?>Anyone have any suggestions?Interesting question, and, I think, a legitimate one. The Greek text of Heb 6:4-6: (4) ADUNATON GAR TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS GEUSAMENOUS TE THS DWREAS THS EPOURANIOU KAI METOCOUS GENHQENTAS PNEUMATOS hAGIOU (5) KAI KALON GEUSAMENOUS QEOU hRHMA DUNAMEIS TE MELLONTOS AIWNOS (6) KAI PARAPESONTAS PALIN ANAKAINIZEIN EIS METANOIAN, …Certainly the chief subject of ADUNATON … PALIN ANAKAINIZEIN EIS METANOIAN must be the substantival participle TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS. The question is whether the succeeding participles, GEUSAMENOUS, GENHQENTAS, and GEUSAMENOUS are linked by conjunctions so that they are really part of TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS. I think it can be reasonably argued that they are, but IF they are, then I think it is reasonable to understand PARAPESONTAS also as attributive rather than adverbial, thus yielding the sense: “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of holy spirit and have tasted the word of God and miracles of the age-to-come and have fallen away …; that is to say, it is reasonable to understand the TOUS following GAR as including all of these aorist participles within the large substantive, inasmuch as the conjunctions, indeed the tightly-linking conjunctions TE … KAI, seem intended to constitute all of them into a single characterization of these particular ‘backsliders.’ It is possible, I suppose, to understand the KAI preceding PARAPESONTAS as adverbial rather than as a conjunction, “even after they have fallen away” and in that way make this participle different from the rest, therefore circumstantial and adverbial rather than attributive–BUT at least as convincing a case (if not a more convincing one) can be made for the KAI before PARAPESONTAS as a conjunction parallel to the TE following GEUSAMENOUS and the KAI preceding METOCOUS GENHQENTAS and the KAI preceding KALON GEUSAMENOUS QEOU hRHMA.My guess is that the reason translators have taken that final participle PARAPESONTAS as adverbial-circumstantial is that they want to construe it with the infinitive PALIN AKANAINIZEIN rather than with the series of substantival participles introduced by TOUS, and I would guess also that they are emboldened to this view by the fact that the other participles all describe the positive consequences of successful conversion while PARAPESONTAS refers to ‘backsliding.’Nevertheless, upon close examination of this whole sequence, it seems to me that any explanation of the KAI preceding PARAPESONTAS as merely adverbial rather than conjunctive is highly suspect. Consequently I think I would join Kelley in what I take to be a protest against the understanding of this sequence by “most translations.”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

 

LOGOS in John and SOPHIA in ProverbshO LOGOS

Hebrews 6 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Oct 28 06:46:35 EST 1998

 

LOGOS in John and SOPHIA in Proverbs hO LOGOS At 4:27 PM -0800 10/27/98, Kelley Mata wrote:>I have always wondered why most translations render parapesontas in Hebrews>6:6 as an adverbial participle while all the preceding participles in that>passage (which are in the same coordinating construction) are translated as>adjectival and as conditional. This has always seemed strange to me. Why>the change?>Anyone have any suggestions?Interesting question, and, I think, a legitimate one. The Greek text of Heb 6:4-6: (4) ADUNATON GAR TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS GEUSAMENOUS TE THS DWREAS THS EPOURANIOU KAI METOCOUS GENHQENTAS PNEUMATOS hAGIOU (5) KAI KALON GEUSAMENOUS QEOU hRHMA DUNAMEIS TE MELLONTOS AIWNOS (6) KAI PARAPESONTAS PALIN ANAKAINIZEIN EIS METANOIAN, …Certainly the chief subject of ADUNATON … PALIN ANAKAINIZEIN EIS METANOIAN must be the substantival participle TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS. The question is whether the succeeding participles, GEUSAMENOUS, GENHQENTAS, and GEUSAMENOUS are linked by conjunctions so that they are really part of TOUS hAPAX FWTISQENTAS. I think it can be reasonably argued that they are, but IF they are, then I think it is reasonable to understand PARAPESONTAS also as attributive rather than adverbial, thus yielding the sense: “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of holy spirit and have tasted the word of God and miracles of the age-to-come and have fallen away …; that is to say, it is reasonable to understand the TOUS following GAR as including all of these aorist participles within the large substantive, inasmuch as the conjunctions, indeed the tightly-linking conjunctions TE … KAI, seem intended to constitute all of them into a single characterization of these particular ‘backsliders.’ It is possible, I suppose, to understand the KAI preceding PARAPESONTAS as adverbial rather than as a conjunction, “even after they have fallen away” and in that way make this participle different from the rest, therefore circumstantial and adverbial rather than attributive–BUT at least as convincing a case (if not a more convincing one) can be made for the KAI before PARAPESONTAS as a conjunction parallel to the TE following GEUSAMENOUS and the KAI preceding METOCOUS GENHQENTAS and the KAI preceding KALON GEUSAMENOUS QEOU hRHMA.My guess is that the reason translators have taken that final participle PARAPESONTAS as adverbial-circumstantial is that they want to construe it with the infinitive PALIN AKANAINIZEIN rather than with the series of substantival participles introduced by TOUS, and I would guess also that they are emboldened to this view by the fact that the other participles all describe the positive consequences of successful conversion while PARAPESONTAS refers to ‘backsliding.’Nevertheless, upon close examination of this whole sequence, it seems to me that any explanation of the KAI preceding PARAPESONTAS as merely adverbial rather than conjunctive is highly suspect. Consequently I think I would join Kelley in what I take to be a protest against the understanding of this sequence by “most translations.”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

 

LOGOS in John and SOPHIA in ProverbshO LOGOS

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 14 14:50:46 EDT 1998

 

Philo Exsecr. Mark 2:23b To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying aboutsuch ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply tonon-Christians instead?Thanks,Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne College_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Philo Exsecr.Mark 2:23b

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 14 14:50:46 EDT 1998

 

Philo Exsecr. Mark 2:23b To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying aboutsuch ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply tonon-Christians instead?Thanks,Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne College_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Philo Exsecr.Mark 2:23b

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Justin Winger jwinger at westmont.edu
Mon Jun 15 01:48:18 EDT 1998

 

Clement & Polycarp Mark 2:23b Edgar: I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on theBible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, Idid write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows. I found that the author was a very educated person who used theskill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them topersevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish Christians(thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’srhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his argument.The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warningpassages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6), 10:25-38, and12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A FormalAnalysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring 1992),which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire work mayvery possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that thestring of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers (i.e.,the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued thatPARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWShAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the otherwarning passages. As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I argued thatit is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to losehis/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into one ofthe most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that is notthe focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many differentways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. Thequestions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it take? Isit turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity*completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. Butagain, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want morespecific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too long.Justin At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?> >Thanks,> >Edgar Foster> >Classics Major> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> > > > > >_________________________________________________________>DO YOU YAHOO!?>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> > >

 

Clement & PolycarpMark 2:23b

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Justin Winger jwinger at westmont.edu
Mon Jun 15 01:48:18 EDT 1998

 

Clement & Polycarp Mark 2:23b Edgar: I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on theBible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, Idid write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows. I found that the author was a very educated person who used theskill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them topersevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish Christians(thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’srhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his argument.The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warningpassages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6), 10:25-38, and12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A FormalAnalysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring 1992),which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire work mayvery possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that thestring of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers (i.e.,the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued thatPARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWShAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the otherwarning passages. As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I argued thatit is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to losehis/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into one ofthe most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that is notthe focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many differentways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. Thequestions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it take? Isit turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity*completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. Butagain, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want morespecific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too long.Justin At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?> >Thanks,> >Edgar Foster> >Classics Major> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> > > > > >_________________________________________________________>DO YOU YAHOO!?>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> > >

 

Clement & PolycarpMark 2:23b

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS John M. Sweigart jsweiger at cswnet.com
Mon Jun 15 09:45:36 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b LXX 1 Kings 8:11 Justin Winger wrote:> > Edgar:> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on the> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, I> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.> I found that the author was a very educated person who used the> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish Christians> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his argument.> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6), 10:25-38, and> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring 1992),> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire work may> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that the> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers (i.e.,> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the other> warning passages.> As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I argued that> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into one of> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that is not> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many different> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it take? Is> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. But> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want more> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too long.> > Justin> > At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to> >non-Christians instead?> >> >Thanks,> >> >Edgar Foster> >> >Classics Major> >> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> >> >> >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________> >DO YOU YAHOO!?> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> >> >> >—> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To unsubscribe,> mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> >> >> >> >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To unsubscribe, mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jsweiger at cswnet.comJustin;Perhaps an analysis of the semantic domain of the Greek word SWTHRIAwould be within the confines of the list. I for one would like to seethat issue discussed from a lexical point of view since there is apopular tendency to use the term as a technical term rather than ageneric term which I believe it is.– *************************************************Rev. John M. SweigartUS Army Chaplain (retired)Pastor, Cumberland Presbyterian ChurchContributing Author: Inthebeginning.orgBox 895 Dover, AR 72387(501)-331-2980***********************

 

Mark 2:23bLXX 1 Kings 8:11

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS John M. Sweigart jsweiger at cswnet.com
Mon Jun 15 09:45:36 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b LXX 1 Kings 8:11 Justin Winger wrote:> > Edgar:> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on the> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, I> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.> I found that the author was a very educated person who used the> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish Christians> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his argument.> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6), 10:25-38, and> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring 1992),> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire work may> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that the> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers (i.e.,> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the other> warning passages.> As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I argued that> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into one of> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that is not> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many different> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it take? Is> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. But> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want more> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too long.> > Justin> > At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to> >non-Christians instead?> >> >Thanks,> >> >Edgar Foster> >> >Classics Major> >> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> >> >> >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________> >DO YOU YAHOO!?> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> >> >> >—> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To unsubscribe,> mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> >> >> >> >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To unsubscribe, mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jsweiger at cswnet.comJustin;Perhaps an analysis of the semantic domain of the Greek word SWTHRIAwould be within the confines of the list. I for one would like to seethat issue discussed from a lexical point of view since there is apopular tendency to use the term as a technical term rather than ageneric term which I believe it is.– *************************************************Rev. John M. SweigartUS Army Chaplain (retired)Pastor, Cumberland Presbyterian ChurchContributing Author: Inthebeginning.orgBox 895 Dover, AR 72387(501)-331-2980***********************

 

Mark 2:23bLXX 1 Kings 8:11

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Dale M. Wheeler dalemw at teleport.com
Mon Jun 15 12:32:24 EDT 1998

 

re; Mk 2:23 DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:50:46 -0700 (PDT); Edgar Foster wrote:>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?This is probably NOT an appropriate question for since theanswer will depend as much on one’s theological presuppositions brought to the text as it will on the actual data…moreover toanswer such a question would take an IMMENSELY long response, dealing with the whole of the book of Hebrews. Nevertheless,there ARE some grammatical and lexical things involved which you do need to wrestle with in order to come to a conclusion (I’mtrying to keep it short in the following):1) PARAPESONTAS is the last participle in a chain of ptcs which(IMHO) MUST be read as all referring to the same person/peoplebecause there is ONE article governing the whole string. So ALLthe things which are said to be true of these folks (“enlightened,tasted heavenly gift/eschatological powers, become partners with/partakers of the HS”) includes that they have/can “fall away”.So when you look in the book of Hebrew for other uses of theseconcepts (“enlightened” Heb 10:32; “partner” Heb 1:9; 3:1, 14;12:8), remember that whatever you decide these mean, thesefolks can “fall away.”2) “To fall away”, IMHO, should be defined FIRST within Hebrews,not by 20th Century Christian theological jargon. I’d suggest for your appraisal Heb 3:17; 4:11; also consider AFISTHMI in 3:12.If these are appropriate cross-references, then that means thatthe semantic field of “fall away” is “to not enter into God’sRest/Palestine”. I’d further suggest for your appraisal thatas a result of this definition, a third alternative to the traditional two–both of which are based on the supposition thathe is discussing their justified/regenerate standing (ie., youcan lose your “salvation”, ie., you won’t go to heaven; and youcan’t lose it)–is warranted. If “fall away” refers to “notentering rest, but falling in the wilderness”, then you haveto deal with the fact that these people had experienced the Passover (which would seem to be an image of forgiveness andentrance into covenant, ie., “saved”) and that certain ones thatmost would expect to be “in heaven” won’t be; Moses as the mostprime example. A third alternative would be that what is lostis not the justified standing, but rather temporal relationshipwith God and the body, and eternal rewards; ie., the passage isdealing with “santification” and “rewards” issues, not “justification/regeneration” issues…note the context of thisdiscussion in 6:1 is “go on to maturity”.3) A couple of other things to wrestle with: ADUNATOS can haveboth a “objective” and a “subjective” impossibility nuance to it; ie., there are some things which are objectively impossible(can’t jump to the moon from earth…not even Michael Jordan, itsobjectively impossible) and somethings which are objectivelypossible, but subjectively impossible (Acts 4:20; Peter and JohnCOULD have shut their mouths; OU + DUNAMAI). So it may eitherbe objectively impossible for these folks to come back or it may be subjectively impossible (ie., from a human perspectiveit is unlikely in the extreme)4) The text is tantilizingly ambiguous as to who the agent in”renewing to repentance” is; it doesn’t say that “they can’tcome back”; it doesn’t say that “you can’t bring them back”;all it says is that its ADUNATOS for “someone” to renew them.Its important to note that this is a passive concept (cf., BAGD, “ADUNATOS,” 2), so there is an implied agent. It isnot necessary to read the agent as God, as some do; it couldjust as easily be “other members of the community”; thoughit would seem unlikely given the passive nature of the phrasethat he’s referring to the fallen individuals themselves.5) The following metaphor of field burning has ONE articleagain to indicate the ground which is blessed and “close to being cursed”, ie., the SAME ground. Moreover, the metaphoris NOT one of destruction, but of attempted restoration. Every time one sees “fire” in the NT, it doesn’t refer to hell…in this case field burning is a farming procedure todestroy certain plants and weeds, esp., thorns, so that the field can be replanted and become productive again. Idon’t know about the rest of the USA, but they still do this here in Oregon.Well, those are some things that I found that I had to wrestle with in terms of trying to figure out what this passage means; I hope you enjoy your journey… (-:XAIREIN…***********************************************************************Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D.Research Professor in Biblical Languages Multnomah Bible College8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw at teleport.com ***********************************************************************

 

re; Mk 2:23DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Dale M. Wheeler dalemw at teleport.com
Mon Jun 15 12:32:24 EDT 1998

 

re; Mk 2:23 DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:50:46 -0700 (PDT); Edgar Foster wrote:>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?This is probably NOT an appropriate question for since theanswer will depend as much on one’s theological presuppositions brought to the text as it will on the actual data…moreover toanswer such a question would take an IMMENSELY long response, dealing with the whole of the book of Hebrews. Nevertheless,there ARE some grammatical and lexical things involved which you do need to wrestle with in order to come to a conclusion (I’mtrying to keep it short in the following):1) PARAPESONTAS is the last participle in a chain of ptcs which(IMHO) MUST be read as all referring to the same person/peoplebecause there is ONE article governing the whole string. So ALLthe things which are said to be true of these folks (“enlightened,tasted heavenly gift/eschatological powers, become partners with/partakers of the HS”) includes that they have/can “fall away”.So when you look in the book of Hebrew for other uses of theseconcepts (“enlightened” Heb 10:32; “partner” Heb 1:9; 3:1, 14;12:8), remember that whatever you decide these mean, thesefolks can “fall away.”2) “To fall away”, IMHO, should be defined FIRST within Hebrews,not by 20th Century Christian theological jargon. I’d suggest for your appraisal Heb 3:17; 4:11; also consider AFISTHMI in 3:12.If these are appropriate cross-references, then that means thatthe semantic field of “fall away” is “to not enter into God’sRest/Palestine”. I’d further suggest for your appraisal thatas a result of this definition, a third alternative to the traditional two–both of which are based on the supposition thathe is discussing their justified/regenerate standing (ie., youcan lose your “salvation”, ie., you won’t go to heaven; and youcan’t lose it)–is warranted. If “fall away” refers to “notentering rest, but falling in the wilderness”, then you haveto deal with the fact that these people had experienced the Passover (which would seem to be an image of forgiveness andentrance into covenant, ie., “saved”) and that certain ones thatmost would expect to be “in heaven” won’t be; Moses as the mostprime example. A third alternative would be that what is lostis not the justified standing, but rather temporal relationshipwith God and the body, and eternal rewards; ie., the passage isdealing with “santification” and “rewards” issues, not “justification/regeneration” issues…note the context of thisdiscussion in 6:1 is “go on to maturity”.3) A couple of other things to wrestle with: ADUNATOS can haveboth a “objective” and a “subjective” impossibility nuance to it; ie., there are some things which are objectively impossible(can’t jump to the moon from earth…not even Michael Jordan, itsobjectively impossible) and somethings which are objectivelypossible, but subjectively impossible (Acts 4:20; Peter and JohnCOULD have shut their mouths; OU + DUNAMAI). So it may eitherbe objectively impossible for these folks to come back or it may be subjectively impossible (ie., from a human perspectiveit is unlikely in the extreme)4) The text is tantilizingly ambiguous as to who the agent in”renewing to repentance” is; it doesn’t say that “they can’tcome back”; it doesn’t say that “you can’t bring them back”;all it says is that its ADUNATOS for “someone” to renew them.Its important to note that this is a passive concept (cf., BAGD, “ADUNATOS,” 2), so there is an implied agent. It isnot necessary to read the agent as God, as some do; it couldjust as easily be “other members of the community”; thoughit would seem unlikely given the passive nature of the phrasethat he’s referring to the fallen individuals themselves.5) The following metaphor of field burning has ONE articleagain to indicate the ground which is blessed and “close to being cursed”, ie., the SAME ground. Moreover, the metaphoris NOT one of destruction, but of attempted restoration. Every time one sees “fire” in the NT, it doesn’t refer to hell…in this case field burning is a farming procedure todestroy certain plants and weeds, esp., thorns, so that the field can be replanted and become productive again. Idon’t know about the rest of the USA, but they still do this here in Oregon.Well, those are some things that I found that I had to wrestle with in terms of trying to figure out what this passage means; I hope you enjoy your journey… (-:XAIREIN…***********************************************************************Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D.Research Professor in Biblical Languages Multnomah Bible College8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw at teleport.com ***********************************************************************

 

re; Mk 2:23DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop

DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop Edward Hobbs EHOBBS at WELLESLEY.EDU
Mon Jun 15 14:10:16 EDT 1998

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS aulizomai Jonathan writes (about 3rd edition of Bauer-in-English):>I just checked this out with Frederick Danker, who confirms that he is in>the last stages of editing the galleys, and says that the University of>Chicago Press has listed it in their November catalog.>This is great news!>JonathanIt certainly is great news. But be wary: 2 1/2 years ago I took FredDanker to dinner, where he told me exactly what he told Jonathan, andthe University of Chicago Press said it would be ready for April 1996 catalog. (It wasn’t.)But let us all pray that this time it really happens!Edward Hobbs

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTASaulizomai

DANKER 3rd Ed / Alsop Edward Hobbs EHOBBS at WELLESLEY.EDU
Mon Jun 15 14:10:16 EDT 1998

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS aulizomai Jonathan writes (about 3rd edition of Bauer-in-English):>I just checked this out with Frederick Danker, who confirms that he is in>the last stages of editing the galleys, and says that the University of>Chicago Press has listed it in their November catalog.>This is great news!>JonathanIt certainly is great news. But be wary: 2 1/2 years ago I took FredDanker to dinner, where he told me exactly what he told Jonathan, andthe University of Chicago Press said it would be ready for April 1996 catalog. (It wasn’t.)But let us all pray that this time it really happens!Edward Hobbs

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTASaulizomai

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 16 20:01:41 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Dear Justin,Thanks for your response. I agree with your conclusions, but wouldenjoy having more detail. Could I please get a copy of your article.Thanks,Edgar Foster—Justin Winger <jwinger at westmont.edu> wrote:> > Edgar:> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or onthe> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, I> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.> I found that the author was a very educated person who usedthe> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of JewishChristians> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout hisargument.> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6),10:25-38, and> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring1992),> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entirework may> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence thatthe> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers(i.e.,> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in theother> warning passages. > As to what the writer is saying about those believers, Iargued that> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped intoone of> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and thatis not> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are manydifferent> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does ittake? Is> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. But> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you wantmore> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been toolong.> > Justin> > At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to> >non-Christians instead?> >> >Thanks,> >> >Edgar Foster> >> >Classics Major> >> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> >> >> >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________> >DO YOU YAHOO!?> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> >> >> >—> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To unsubscribe,> mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> >> >> >> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=questioning1 at yahoo.com> > _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Mark 2:23bHebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 16 20:01:41 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Dear Justin,Thanks for your response. I agree with your conclusions, but wouldenjoy having more detail. Could I please get a copy of your article.Thanks,Edgar Foster—Justin Winger <jwinger at westmont.edu> wrote:> > Edgar:> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or onthe> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. However, I> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.> I found that the author was a very educated person who usedthe> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of JewishChristians> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout hisargument.> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6),10:25-38, and> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring1992),> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entirework may> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence thatthe> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers(i.e.,> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in theother> warning passages. > As to what the writer is saying about those believers, Iargued that> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped intoone of> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and thatis not> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are manydifferent> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does ittake? Is> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. But> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you wantmore> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been toolong.> > Justin> > At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to> >non-Christians instead?> >> >Thanks,> >> >Edgar Foster> >> >Classics Major> >> >Lenoir-Rhyne College> >> >> >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________> >DO YOU YAHOO!?> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> >> >> >—> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >To unsubscribe,> mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> >> >> >> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=questioning1 at yahoo.com> > _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Mark 2:23bHebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 16 23:21:03 EDT 1998

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS John 11:35 Dear Dale and other ers,My thanks go out to all who have responded to my query.—“Dale M. Wheeler” wrote:> Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:50:46 -0700 (PDT); Edgar Foster wrote:>>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying aboutsuch ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply tonon-Christians instead?<< > This is probably NOT an appropriate question for since the> answer will depend as much on one’s theological presuppositions > brought to the text as it will on the actual data…moreover to> answer such a question would take an IMMENSELY long response, > dealing with the whole of the book of Hebrews. Nevertheless,> there ARE some grammatical and lexical things involved which you > do need to wrestle with in order to come to a conclusion (I’m> trying to keep it short in the following):Your points are well taken, Dale, and the text is filled withcontroversy. But, it does seem that the writer of Hebrews isaddressing believers, and he is issuing a warning to them. What thatwarning is, is debatable; I am inclined to agree with Earle here,however, when he says: “In verses 4-6 there are five aoristparticiples in parallel construction. The fifth one is PARAPESONTAS,”and have fallen away” . . . The Greek clearly indicates that one maybecome a partaker of the Holy Spirit–obviously a Christian–and yetfall away and be lost” (Earle 423). Note also the synchronic evidence contained in BAGD: “PARAPIPTO . . . fall away, commit apostasy (Wsd 6:9; 12:2; Ezk. 22:4)Hb 6:6” (621). See also 1 Cl. 51:1.While I will not pronounce a dogmatic conclusio here, it seems likelythat the words of Heb. 6:6 could describe dire consequences for thosewho “fall away” from the faith. >>Well, those are some things that I found that I had to wrestle within terms of trying to figure out what this passage means; I hope youenjoy your journey… (-:<<Thanks for all your help, Dale. The journey is a joyful, long one. :-)Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne College_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTASJohn 11:35

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 16 23:21:03 EDT 1998

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS John 11:35 Dear Dale and other ers,My thanks go out to all who have responded to my query.—“Dale M. Wheeler” wrote:> Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:50:46 -0700 (PDT); Edgar Foster wrote:>>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying aboutsuch ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply tonon-Christians instead?<< > This is probably NOT an appropriate question for since the> answer will depend as much on one’s theological presuppositions > brought to the text as it will on the actual data…moreover to> answer such a question would take an IMMENSELY long response, > dealing with the whole of the book of Hebrews. Nevertheless,> there ARE some grammatical and lexical things involved which you > do need to wrestle with in order to come to a conclusion (I’m> trying to keep it short in the following):Your points are well taken, Dale, and the text is filled withcontroversy. But, it does seem that the writer of Hebrews isaddressing believers, and he is issuing a warning to them. What thatwarning is, is debatable; I am inclined to agree with Earle here,however, when he says: “In verses 4-6 there are five aoristparticiples in parallel construction. The fifth one is PARAPESONTAS,”and have fallen away” . . . The Greek clearly indicates that one maybecome a partaker of the Holy Spirit–obviously a Christian–and yetfall away and be lost” (Earle 423). Note also the synchronic evidence contained in BAGD: “PARAPIPTO . . . fall away, commit apostasy (Wsd 6:9; 12:2; Ezk. 22:4)Hb 6:6” (621). See also 1 Cl. 51:1.While I will not pronounce a dogmatic conclusio here, it seems likelythat the words of Heb. 6:6 could describe dire consequences for thosewho “fall away” from the faith. >>Well, those are some things that I found that I had to wrestle within terms of trying to figure out what this passage means; I hope youenjoy your journey… (-:<<Thanks for all your help, Dale. The journey is a joyful, long one. :-)Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne College_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTASJohn 11:35

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Justin Winger jwinger at westmont.edu
Thu Jun 18 04:20:28 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b Tradent Edgar: While I have converted the paper to a PC/Microsoft Word format, I amhaving trouble converting the (Mac) Koine font to a PC Greek font, and thepaper relies heavily on the Greek text. I am beginning to wonder if itwould not be easier to send you the paper by snail mail. It would be reallyeasy to send to you as an attachment if you are using a Mac. Let me know.If you still want me to try to send it as an attachment to an email, let meknow what kind of computer and word processor you are using… Have a greatday!JustinAt 05:01 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>Dear Justin,> >Thanks for your response. I agree with your conclusions, but would>enjoy having more detail. Could I please get a copy of your article.> >Thanks,> >Edgar Foster> > > > >—Justin Winger <jwinger at westmont.edu> wrote:>> >> Edgar:>> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on>the>> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. >However, I>> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.>> I found that the author was a very educated person who used>the>> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to>> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish>Christians>> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s>> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his>argument.>> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning>> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6),>10:25-38, and>> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal>> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring>1992),>> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire>work may>> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that>the>> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers>(i.e.,>> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that>> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS>> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the>other>> warning passages. >> As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I>argued that>> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose>> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into>one of>> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that>is not>> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many>different>> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The>> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it>take? Is>> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity>> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. >But>> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want>more>> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too>long.>> >> Justin>> >> At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>> >non-Christians instead?>> >>> >Thanks,>> >>> >Edgar Foster>> >>> >Classics Major>> >>> >Lenoir-Rhyne College>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >_________________________________________________________>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com>> >>> >>> >—>> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> >To unsubscribe,>> >mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>>> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> To unsubscribe,>mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=questioning1 at yahoo.com>> >> > >_________________________________________________________>DO YOU YAHOO!?>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> > >

 

Mark 2:23bTradent

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Justin Winger jwinger at westmont.edu
Thu Jun 18 04:20:28 EDT 1998

 

Mark 2:23b Tradent Edgar: While I have converted the paper to a PC/Microsoft Word format, I amhaving trouble converting the (Mac) Koine font to a PC Greek font, and thepaper relies heavily on the Greek text. I am beginning to wonder if itwould not be easier to send you the paper by snail mail. It would be reallyeasy to send to you as an attachment if you are using a Mac. Let me know.If you still want me to try to send it as an attachment to an email, let meknow what kind of computer and word processor you are using… Have a greatday!JustinAt 05:01 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>Dear Justin,> >Thanks for your response. I agree with your conclusions, but would>enjoy having more detail. Could I please get a copy of your article.> >Thanks,> >Edgar Foster> > > > >—Justin Winger <jwinger at westmont.edu> wrote:>> >> Edgar:>> I am by no means an expert in Greek, on this passage, or on>the>> Bible. Besides that, this is a fairly controversial passage. >However, I>> did write a paper on Hebrews 6:4-6 and my conclusions are as follows.>> I found that the author was a very educated person who used>the>> skill of rhetoric to present to his audience an argument for them to>> persevere in their faith. The audience was composed of Jewish>Christians>> (thus, they were believers). One of the indications of the author’s>> rhetorical skill is his widespread use of synonyms throughout his>argument.>> The work itself, aside from being well-argued, contaings five “warning>> passages” (2:1-3, 3:8-4:2, 6:4-12 (though especially 6:4-6),>10:25-38, and>> 12:1-25; see Scot McKnight, “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal>> Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” *Trinity Journal*, Spring>1992),>> which contain grave warnings about one particular sin. The entire>work may>> very possibly have been a speech or a sermon. I found evidence that>the>> string of participles which precede PARAPESONTAS describe believers>(i.e.,>> the audience of 6:4-6 is specifically Christian). I argued that>> PARAPESONTAS is used as a synonym for both APOSTHNAI and hEKOUSIWS>> hAMARTANONTWN hHMWN and is the same as the sins referred to in the>other>> warning passages. >> As to what the writer is saying about those believers, I>argued that>> it is a warning against apostasy, that it is possible for one to lose>> his/her salvation. HOWEVER, we have all of the sudden jumped into>one of>> the most hotly debated *theological* realms that there is, and that>is not>> the focus of this list. I will say, however, that there are many>different>> ways that “it is possible to lose your salvation” can be taken. The>> questions “What does it mean to lose your salvation? What does it>take? Is>> it turning your back on God once an for all — abandoning Christianity>> *completely* or is it something less?” definitely need to be asked. >But>> again, that is outside the scope of this list. Email me if you want>more>> specific info or a copy of the paper. I hope this hasn’t been too>long.>> >> Justin>> >> At 11:50 AM 6/14/98 -0700, Edgar Foster wrote:>> >To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>> >Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>> >such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>> >non-Christians instead?>> >>> >Thanks,>> >>> >Edgar Foster>> >>> >Classics Major>> >>> >Lenoir-Rhyne College>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >_________________________________________________________>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com>> >>> >>> >—>> > home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>> >To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> >To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> >To unsubscribe,>> >mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>>> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> To unsubscribe,>mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=questioning1 at yahoo.com>> >> > >_________________________________________________________>DO YOU YAHOO!?>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> > >> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu>To unsubscribe,mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=jwinger at westmont.edu> > >

 

Mark 2:23bTradent

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Carlton Winbery winberyc at popalex1.linknet.net
Thu Jun 18 08:02:14 EDT 1998

 

John 11:35 John 11:35 Edgar Foster wrote;>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?I’d like to start over to answer this question. It has a simple answerthat involves reading the Greek as it is. The participle PARAPESONTASrefers to those indicated by the article TOUS and discribed by the fiveparticiples from FWTISQENTAS to GEUSAMENOUS and the word clusters with theparticiples. ADUNATON is used with the infinitive ANAKAINIZEIN to say that”It is impossible to renew unto repentance those who . . .” In fact Iwould translate simply, “It is impossible to renew to repentance those whofall away after having been enlightened, having tasted . . . , since theycrucify for themselves the Son of God and subject him to public ridicule.”I think that this sense would have been perfectly clear in the earlychurch, but that was a time before so many creeds and stuff.I heard one noted theologian say, “The faith that fissles before the finishwas faulty from the first.” That is obviously a subjective opinion aboutthose who “fall away.” In that situation, the Greek will not help.Carlton L. WinberyFogleman Professor of ReligionLouisiana CollegePineville, LA 71359winberyc at popalex1.linknet.netwinbery at andria.lacollege.edu

 

John 11:35John 11:35

Hebrews 6:6-PARASEPONTAS Carlton Winbery winberyc at popalex1.linknet.net
Thu Jun 18 08:02:14 EDT 1998

 

John 11:35 John 11:35 Edgar Foster wrote;>To Whom does the aorist participle PARAPESONTAS in Heb. 6:6 refer?>Does it refer to believers? If so, what is the writer saying about>such ones? Conversely, could the writer’s words apply to>non-Christians instead?I’d like to start over to answer this question. It has a simple answerthat involves reading the Greek as it is. The participle PARAPESONTASrefers to those indicated by the article TOUS and discribed by the fiveparticiples from FWTISQENTAS to GEUSAMENOUS and the word clusters with theparticiples. ADUNATON is used with the infinitive ANAKAINIZEIN to say that”It is impossible to renew unto repentance those who . . .” In fact Iwould translate simply, “It is impossible to renew to repentance those whofall away after having been enlightened, having tasted . . . , since theycrucify for themselves the Son of God and subject him to public ridicule.”I think that this sense would have been perfectly clear in the earlychurch, but that was a time before so many creeds and stuff.I heard one noted theologian say, “The faith that fissles before the finishwas faulty from the first.” That is obviously a subjective opinion aboutthose who “fall away.” In that situation, the Greek will not help.Carlton L. WinberyFogleman Professor of ReligionLouisiana CollegePineville, LA 71359winberyc at popalex1.linknet.netwinbery at andria.lacollege.edu

 

John 11:35John 11:35

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