[bible passage=”Luke 11:7″]
Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to
within the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in
himself, i.e. he thought them as opposed to the traditional
interpretation that he spoke them outloud from within the house? If
Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at this time I’d appreciate
any insights the hebrew might add.
kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē
thura kekleistai kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou
dunamai anastas dounai soi
Thanks,
Greg Marquez
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
www.ivChristianCenter.com
—
κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
As I’ve said on more than one occassion, “Context is king.” While I suppose
ἔσωθεν ESWQEN might be used for “to himself”, I don’t think that likely. Cf.
Lk 11.39, but even there it seems that the comparison is to the inside of a cup
as opposed to the outside. In Lk 7.39 when it definitely refers to one’s
“conversing” with himself it uses ἐν ἑαυτῷ EN hEAUTWi.
Now, for the context:
Notice that the one man is inside while we still need to determine where the
other might be (though the suspicion is that he would be outside since the
householder says “My chilren are in bed together with me.” Does he mean they
are all in one bed? Doubtful. He probably simply means “We’ve all gone to
bed.” Then note that he also says “The door is locked.” This would be of
little significance if he had opened the door and let his neighbor in. The
picture we have then is that the householder is inside speaking to his neighbor
who is outside and not simply talking to himself.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 11:34:49 AM
Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to within
the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in himself, i.e. he
thought them as opposed to the traditional interpretation that he spoke them
outloud from within the house? If Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at
this time I’d appreciate any insights the hebrew might add.
kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē thura kekleistai
kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou dunamai anastas dounai soi
Thanks,
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
—
Perhaps I didn’t make myself plain enough. The context of the story indicates
that the man inside was NOT simply thinking that he should tell his neighbor to
go away.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:02:15 PM
I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context choice is
between:
The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.
I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly since it
avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving some kind of
repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there is little basis for
assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the part of the friend who needed
bread.
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
________________________________
I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context
choice is between:
The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.
I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly
since it avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving
some kind of repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there
is little basis for assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the
part of the friend who needed bread.
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
—– Original Message —–
Sent: 4. januar 2011 00:02
I would say none of the above. To “think” or “say to oneself” can be expressed
as George said with EN hEAUTWi (Luke 7:39; 16:3, 18:4). It is also possible to
“say in your heart”, but that is more Hebrew than Greek (Rom 10:6; Rev 18:7).
While ESWQEN can refer to the inside of a person or internally as in Mark
7:21,23, Luke 11:39, 2 Cor 7:5, I do not see evidence that ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS
EIPHi can possibly mean “having answered and said inside himself”. The person
inside responded to the person outside without shouting – as that would wake up
the children. That makes perfect sense in context. It is understandable that
this friend was reluctant to get up at midnight to find bread and in the process
disturb his wife and maybe the children. Well, he might not do it because of
friendship and normal social obligation, but he may well do it if the other
person persists in asking. I can see nothing strained about repeating the
request, although ANAIDEIA does not mean repetition, but “lack of proper
restraint or consideration, intemperateness” (LSJ).
See also BDAG: “lack of sensitivity to what is proper, carelessness about the
good opinion of others, shamelessness, impertinence, impudence, ignoring of
convention (a fundamental cultural consideration in the Gr-Rom. world, here with
focus on tradition of hospitality) Lk 11:8, either of the one who is doing the
calling out (simply εἴπον vs. 5) to his friend within, in which case the
‘shamelessness’ consists in disturbing the peace at an inappropriate hour –
shameless disturbance (ἀ. itself does not mean ‘persistence’, of which the text
make no explicit mention; but many translations draw semantic support from the
explanation) – or …”
Iver Larsen
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
—
κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
As I’ve said on more than one occassion, “Context is king.” While I suppose
ἔσωθεν ESWQEN might be used for “to himself”, I don’t think that likely. Cf.
Lk 11.39, but even there it seems that the comparison is to the inside of a cup
as opposed to the outside. In Lk 7.39 when it definitely refers to one’s
“conversing” with himself it uses ἐν ἑαυτῷ EN hEAUTWi.
Now, for the context:
Notice that the one man is inside while we still need to determine where the
other might be (though the suspicion is that he would be outside since the
householder says “My chilren are in bed together with me.” Does he mean they
are all in one bed? Doubtful. He probably simply means “We’ve all gone to
bed.” Then note that he also says “The door is locked.” This would be of
little significance if he had opened the door and let his neighbor in. The
picture we have then is that the householder is inside speaking to his neighbor
who is outside and not simply talking to himself.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 11:34:49 AM
Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to within
the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in himself, i.e. he
thought them as opposed to the traditional interpretation that he spoke them
outloud from within the house? If Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at
this time I’d appreciate any insights the hebrew might add.
kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē thura kekleistai
kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou dunamai anastas dounai soi
Thanks,
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
—
I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context
choice is between:
The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.
I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly
since it avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving
some kind of repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there
is little basis for assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the
part of the friend who needed bread.
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
Perhaps I didn’t make myself plain enough. The context of the story indicates
that the man inside was NOT simply thinking that he should tell his neighbor to
go away.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:02:15 PM
I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context choice is
between:
The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.
I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly since it
avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving some kind of
repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there is little basis for
assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the part of the friend who needed
bread.
Greg Marquez
http://www.ivChristianCenter.com
κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
________________________________
—– Original Message —–
Sent: 4. januar 2011 00:02
I would say none of the above. To “think” or “say to oneself” can be expressed
as George said with EN hEAUTWi (Luke 7:39; 16:3, 18:4). It is also possible to
“say in your heart”, but that is more Hebrew than Greek (Rom 10:6; Rev 18:7).
While ESWQEN can refer to the inside of a person or internally as in Mark
7:21,23, Luke 11:39, 2 Cor 7:5, I do not see evidence that ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS
EIPHi can possibly mean “having answered and said inside himself”. The person
inside responded to the person outside without shouting – as that would wake up
the children. That makes perfect sense in context. It is understandable that
this friend was reluctant to get up at midnight to find bread and in the process
disturb his wife and maybe the children. Well, he might not do it because of
friendship and normal social obligation, but he may well do it if the other
person persists in asking. I can see nothing strained about repeating the
request, although ANAIDEIA does not mean repetition, but “lack of proper
restraint or consideration, intemperateness” (LSJ).
See also BDAG: “lack of sensitivity to what is proper, carelessness about the
good opinion of others, shamelessness, impertinence, impudence, ignoring of
convention (a fundamental cultural consideration in the Gr-Rom. world, here with
focus on tradition of hospitality) Lk 11:8, either of the one who is doing the
calling out (simply εἴπον vs. 5) to his friend within, in which case the
‘shamelessness’ consists in disturbing the peace at an inappropriate hour –
shameless disturbance (ἀ. itself does not mean ‘persistence’, of which the text
make no explicit mention; but many translations draw semantic support from the
explanation) – or …”
Iver Larsen
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
—