Mark 15:34

Mark 15:34 Michael Ryle mryle at mercator.com Thu Apr 20 11:03:33 EDT 2000   Previous message: aggelos Next message: Mark 15:34 Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI LEMASABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an Aramaic versionof Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been curious about this passage.Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross underthe extreme stress of the moment did he spontaneously translate the psalm ashe knew it into his own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an Aramaicsource, a targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of the Hebrewwhich he surely would have known? In the gospels when Jesus quotesscripture, except for this one case, I believe it's true that he always doesso in Greek -- at least I can't think of another instance. Why is this casedifferent and what does it mean? I'm curious to know if anyone else haswondered about this. I am a newcomer both to Biblical Greek and to this list and I would like toexpress my gratitude to Jonathan Robie and the other members of the list forthe tremendous help you offer to someone like me who is struggling to learnhow to read the New Testament in the eerily beautiful language in which itwas written.Michael Ryle, North Eastham, MA-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20000420/bf1d71f3/attachment.html   Previous message: aggelosNext message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com Thu Apr 20 11:41:07 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 Michael:Welcome to . Not only does the list include wonderful scholars,but they're all really nice people.Regarding your question, I think your first choice is probably correct.Since Aramaic was apparently the language Jesus spoke on a day-to-daybasis, He was probably quoting the Psalm in the tongue He normally used,just as you and I (even if we knew Hebrew) would quote the same Hebrewverse in English.Best.TedDr. Theodore "Ted" H. Mann / thmann at juno.comFax and Voice Mail: 1-562-750-5242http://www.homestead.com/ChristianResourcesLinks/index.htmlhttp://www.homestead.com/eLOGOS/index.htmlhttp://www.homestead.com/eIXQUS/index.htmlOn Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:03:33 -0400 Michael Ryle <mryle at mercator.com>writes:> Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI > LEMA> SABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an Aramaic > version> of Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been curious about this > passage.> Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross > under> the extreme stress of the moment did he spontaneously translate the > psalm as> he knew it into his own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an > Aramaic> source, a targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of > the Hebrew> which he surely would have known? In the gospels when Jesus quotes> scripture, except for this one case, I believe it's true that he > always does> so in Greek -- at least I can't think of another instance. Why is > this case> different and what does it mean? I'm curious to know if anyone else > has> wondered about this.> > I am a newcomer both to Biblical Greek and to this list and I would > like to> express my gratitude to Jonathan Robie and the other members of the > list for> the tremendous help you offer to someone like me who is struggling > to learn> how to read the New Testament in the eerily beautiful language in > which it> was written.> > Michael Ryle, North Eastham, MA> ________________________________________________________________YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com Thu Apr 20 12:00:23 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 <Michael>>>Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI LEMASABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an Aramaic versionof Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been curious about this passage.Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross underthe extreme stress of the moment did he spontaneously translate the psalm ashe knew it into his own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an Aramaicsource, a targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of the Hebrewwhich he surely would have known? In the gospels when Jesus quotesscripture, except for this one case, I believe it's true that he always doesso in Greek -- at least I can't think of another instance. Why is this casedifferent and what does it mean? I'm curious to know if anyone else haswondered about this.<Bill>A couple of thoughts:* I don't think He was quoting a psalm, but rather posing a question to HisGod;* One reason it may have been preserved in the Aramaic is to show how thosearound might have mistook it as being a call to EliBill RossPS Does anyone know the nuances of the words LEMA SABACQANI in the Aramaic?   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Jeffrey B. Gibson jgibson000 at mailhost.chi.ameritech.net Thu Apr 20 12:06:49 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Latin in Barnabas Michael Ryle wrote:> Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI> LEMA SABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an> Aramaic version of Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been> curious about this passage. Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew> scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross under the extreme stress of the> moment did he spontaneously translate the psalm as he knew it into his> own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an Aramaic source, a> targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of the Hebrew> which he surely would have known? In the gospels when Jesus quotes> scripture, except for this one case, I believe it's true that he> always does so in Greek -- at least I can't think of another> instance. Why is this case different and what does it mean? I'm> curious to know if anyone else has wondered about this.You might wish to take into account the possibility that what appears tobe Jesus' normal practice to quote Greek Scriptures is due to the factthat this is simply a convention of the Evangelists, since they have himteaching in Greek as well (how else to convey to a Greek speakingaudience what Jesus said?), but is not what historically was the case.May I suggest that you also raise this question on XTalk(www.xtalk.org), the discussion List on the Historical Jesus andChristian origins, and/or on Kata Markon (http://metalab.unc.edu/GMark)?Yours,Jeffrey Gibson--Jeffrey B. Gibson7423 N. Sheridan Road #2AChicago, Illinois 60626e-mail jgibson000 at ameritech.net-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20000420/22290fd9/attachment.html   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Latin in Barnabas More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Jack Kilmon jkilmon at historian.net Thu Apr 20 15:43:22 EDT 2000   Previous message: 1 John 2:8 Next message: Mark 15:34 Michael Ryle wrote:> Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI> LEMA SABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an> Aramaic version of Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been> curious about this passage. Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew> scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross under the extreme stress of the> moment did he spontaneously translate the psalm as he knew it into his> own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an Aramaic source, a> targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of the Hebrew> which he surely would have known?> > It is not the source of the quote, if it is historical, that is> important...it is the audience. Hebrew was the *literary*> lingua franca, understood and used by the literate, about 4-5% of the> population. Aramaic was the spoken,> or colloquial lingua franca. It is impossible to know what the nuance> was for the "cry from the cross" but> since it is in Aramaic, it was directed against whomever was observing> the crucifixion and not God.....if we> also accept as historical that Jesus was Hebrew literate.> > In these difficult times of Roman domination, Psalm 22 may have been a> lection commonly known during> a period of heightened messianic expectation. Jesus may have cried> out Psalm 22 in Aramaic...perhaps> he even quoted more than the gospelers record...as a reminder to the> crowd...sort of an "uh huh....it has> come true!"> > > > In the gospels when Jesus quotes scripture, except for this one case,> I believe it's true that he always does so in Greek -- at least I> can't think of another instance. Why is this case different and what> does it mean? I'm curious to know if anyone else has wondered about> this.> > The hagiographers are not Palestinian Jews..they are Hellenistic Jews> of the diaspora, perhaps one gentile (Luke).> They use the LXX and not the MT. Jesus spoke Aramaic and this is> obvious through the various Aramaisms in> the sayings material. OT references by the> hagiographers...particularly the Matthean scribe are from the LXX.> I doubt that Jesus used the LXX or was more than casually competent in> Greek.> > I am a newcomer both to Biblical Greek and to this list and I would> like to express my gratitude to Jonathan Robie and the other members> of the list for the tremendous help you offer to someone like me who> is struggling to learn how to read the New Testament in the eerily> beautiful language in which it was written.Michael Ryle, North> Eastham, MAJack--______________________________________________taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkonJack Kilmonjkilmon at historian.nethttp://www.historian.netsharing a meal for free.http://www.thehungersite.com/-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20000420/054eb20f/attachment.html   Previous message: 1 John 2:8Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Eszter ESZTER.ANDORKA at student.kuleuven.ac.be Thu Apr 20 15:50:32 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Paul a slave? Hello, Michael!Be carefull: what is written in Mk is not what has happened to the hist. Js. The fact that Mk quotes the Mikra in Aramaic and than in Greek hasto do in the first round with his audience than with the events of thedeath of Js. One possible explanation of the Semitic quoptes in Mk is thatthese are historical reminiscenses, and in this sense it can say somethingabout the hist Js dying on the cross - but this is only one of theexplanations. IF it has to do with Js, I still would not suppose a spontaneoustranslation. The presence of Targumic traditions in the 1st c. wasunderestimated in the NT scholarship for a long time.But what I would say is that the Markan community used Targumictraditions, and a part of the community understood Aramaic, and understoodthe word-games of Mk on the Aramaic texts. Maybe I will return onto the problem - my library is closing now.Eszter On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Michael Ryle wrote:> Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI LEMA> SABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an Aramaic version> of Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been curious about this passage.> Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew scriptures in Aramaic? On the cross under> the extreme stress of the moment did he spontaneously translate the psalm as> he knew it into his own spoken language? Or was he quoting from an Aramaic> source, a targum? If so, why would he quote from that instead of the Hebrew> which he surely would have known? In the gospels when Jesus quotes> scripture, except for this one case, I believe it's true that he always does> so in Greek -- at least I can't think of another instance. Why is this case> different and what does it mean? I'm curious to know if anyone else has> wondered about this.> > I am a newcomer both to Biblical Greek and to this list and I would like to> express my gratitude to Jonathan Robie and the other members of the list for> the tremendous help you offer to someone like me who is struggling to learn> how to read the New Testament in the eerily beautiful language in which it> was written.> > Michael Ryle, North Eastham, MA> >   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Paul a slave? More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 roseann roseann at Intellisys.net Thu Apr 20 17:14:08 EDT 2000   Previous message: Paul a slave? Next message: Mark 15:34 Snipped...> ><Bill>>A couple of thoughts:> >* I don't think He was quoting a psalm, but rather posing a question to His>God;>* One reason it may have been preserved in the Aramaic is to show how those>around might have mistook it as being a call to Eli> >Bill Ross> >PS Does anyone know the nuances of the words LEMA SABACQANI in theAramaic?> >Hello Bill,Curious question. I have the Bible translated from the Peshitta by GeorgeM. Lamsa (Aramaic) and that verse, Mark 15:34, reads: "And at the ninthhour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lemana,shabakthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was spared!"Footnote at "which means" - used by Mark to explain translation from oneAramaic dialect to another. I've wondered why the difference between "forthis I was spared" and "why have you forsaken me?"God bless,Roseann EkmanThomas St. Church of ChristAltus, OK>---> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>You are currently subscribed to as: roseann at Intellisys.net>To unsubscribe, forward this message to$subst('Email.Unsub')>To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > >   Previous message: Paul a slave?Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com Thu Apr 20 17:41:45 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 <Roseann>...I have the Bible translated from the Peshitta by George M. Lamsa(Aramaic) and that verse, Mark 15:34, reads: "And at the ninth hour, Jesuscried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lemana, shabakthani! whichmeans, My God, my God, for this I was spared!" Footnote at "which means" -used by Mark to explain translation from one Aramaic dialect to another.I've wondered why the difference between "for this I was spared" and "whyhave you forsaken me?"<Bill>I had a secret reason for wanting to know the nuances of the words and now Iam excited to see that they confirm my thinking (at least to mysatisfaction).What I believe Jesus was asking the Father was not "why did you go away whenI needed you" which raises absurdities about Christ being separated from theFather (which we are told elsewhere explicitly, never happened).What He was asking was "why am I still alive!" (Aramaic) which translatesappropriately "why was I left [alive] here in the lurch?"So, with that, I'll include what I take the whole interchange to really beabout:***************************************************************************MemorandumTo: To Whom It May ConcernFrom: Bill RossSubject: Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane.Date: March 12, 1997After spending some time meditating the account of Jesus' prayer inGethsemane I believe I have "cracked the case" of the apparent lapse ofJesus' knowledge of the will of God and a discrepancy of wills.Our God-given faculties immediately recoil at the concept that Jesus waspraying that he not have to die on the cross. He determined this with hisfather in eternity past and was incarnated for this cause. It seemedplausible that this was a prayer only for show, to make an example, but thiswas a weak explanation to me.Here is what I found, not from consulting commentaries, but from the Word:·Jesus said (BRT=Bill Ross Translation): "Completely grieved is my souluntil I am dead" (Mark 14:34). In other words, until Jesus died, he would bemiserable.·The narrator says Jesus "prayed that if possible, the hour [period oftime] pass by". In other words, that his death be quick. [As we havediscussed, it was only necessary that Christ shed his blood and die in orderto atone for our sins. The other characteristics of the crucifixion were forother purposes.]·Jesus then prayed: "Remove [carry beside] this cup [small clay vessel] offof me" (Mark 14:36 BRT). In other words, "take me out of this body and letme die!"·Mark records later: "And becoming evening already, since it was thepreparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came,an honorable councillor, who himself was also waiting for the kingdom ofGod. Taking courage, he went and begged the body of Jesus. And Pilatewondered if He was already dead. And calling the centurion near, he askedhim if He died long ago. And knowing from the centurion, he granted the bodyto Joseph." HIS PRAYER WAS ANSWERED! That this was an unnaturally quickdeath (6 hours) is further seen in John's gospel (John 19:31-38), whereJesus' legs were not broken (to arrest breathing), but a soldier did piercehis side (to do "due diligence").About the apparent limitation of Jesus' omniscience regarding the Father'swill regarding how long he would be on the cross:·When Jesus was relating the events relating to the second coming he said:"But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, neither the angels ofHeaven, [nor the Son,] except the Father of me only" (Matthew 24:36). [Note:"nor the Son" is debated text.]. Later, there is another, undisputedreference to the Father reserving these things to himself: "It is not foryou to know the times or the seasons which the Father has put in his ownauthority." (Acts 1:7). It seems that the Father decided that, at leastwhile Jesus was on earth as a man, he would either not have, or would notuse, this reserved detailed information.·"not what I will, but what you will" (Mark 14:36). If, therefore, "becauseof conscience toward God, we bear grief, suffering unjustly" (I Peter 2:19),while suffering patiently, we realize "Christ left behind an example" (IPeter 2:21), who "gave himself over [with this prayer] to Him judgingrighteously" (I Peter 2:23).Further, we see many interesting areas of tension regarding time, the willof the Father, and believers:·God is described as "longsuffering" in his delay, not slow concerning hispromise. This is so "that all [of the elect?] should come to repentance."(II Peter 3:9). Therefore, we should "rush the day" (II Peter 3:12) [by"redeeming the time"]. The saints pray, "How long" in Revelation and "Comequickly". Jesus says that he will "shorten the days" for our sakes. Jesustold the disciples to pray that their flight be not in winter.·Paul is torn between going home and staying, but is persuaded that it isbetter for the believers if he stays longer (Philippians 1:19-26).·Simeon prayed "Now You are letting your servant depart in peace" (Luke2:29) because he had seen "peace upon Israel" (Psalm 128:6).Regarding the appropriateness of praying "If it be thy will...":·We see that Jesus appeared not to know the will of God in this detail andrightly committed his cause to Abba.·James affirms that God will give us wisdom if we ask and chideswishy-washy prayer in James 1:6-8 as ineffectual. Effectual prayer followsthe specific, persistent and earnest prayer of Elijah (James 5:16-18).·The Hebrews had plenty of examples of faith (Hebrews 6:12, Hebrews 11,Hebrews 12:1-2, Hebrews 13:7,8) but were being lazy and unbelieving. Theauthor admonishes them to "imitate those who through faith and patienceinherit the promises" (Hebrews 6:12). He pointed out that God wanted us tobe SURE of his promises so he confirmed them with an oath, and made Jesusthe guarantee (Hebrews 6:13-20, 7:22)There are exceptions that keep details of the will of God hidden, such asthe times and seasons, but Paul affirms that: "Now we have received, not thespirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know thethings that have been freely given to us by God." (I Cor 2:12). In fact,Paul asks rhetorically, "He that spared not his own Son, but freely gave himup for us all, how shall he not with Him freely give us all things?" (Romans8:32).I believe that this is a better exposition of the Gethsemane prayer than isusually offered. I hope you agree.At your service,******************************************************************************So, I see the Aramaic reflecting the same question: "Why am I still here?"Bill Ross   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com Thu Apr 20 17:44:28 EDT 2000   Previous message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 Next message: Latin in Barnabas <Micheal>...However, this same utterance in Hebrew in transliteration (which I won'teven attempt to present since I do not know Hebrew) appears almost identicalto the Aramaic and it looks to me as though it would preserve the lexicalconnection Eloi-Elijah as well as the Aramaic does.<Bill>Can someone on the list provide an authoritative word on whether they aretruly homophonic?Bill Ross   Previous message: Translation of Revelation 19:9Next message: Latin in Barnabas More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Harold R. Holmyard III hholmyard at ont.com Thu Apr 20 18:43:58 EDT 2000   Previous message: Latin in Barnabas Next message: Housman's Easter Hymn Dear Roseann, It has been some time since I studied Jesus' Aramaic quotation of Ps22:1, but I remember finding Mr. Lamsa's translation a tendentious one. TheAramaic $-B-Q (yielding SABACQANI in Mk 15:34) means in BDB "leave, letalone." Now, "leave, let alone" might allow a translation "spare," but itneed not. I cannot remember the details right now, but I thought that Mr.Lamsa was wrong. Delitzsch says that SABACQANI is equivalent to $:BAQ:T.ANIY in Aramaic(the second person singular perfect verb with a first singular suffix).This looks just like Lamsa's shabakthani. And Delitzsch states that theAramaic is equivalent to the Hebrew at Ps 22:1 (which is equivalent to "youhave forsaken me"). Delitzsch adds that Jesus spoke in Aramaic "not in order that all mayunderstand it,-- for such a consideration was far from his mind at such atime,-- but because the Aramaic was His mother tongue, for the same reasonthat He called God )AB.F) ('Abba') in prayer."Yours,Harold Holmyard>Hello Bill,Curious question. I have the Bible translated from the Peshitta by GeorgeM. Lamsa (Aramaic) and that verse, Mark 15:34, reads: "And at the ninthhour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lemana,shabakthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was spared!"Footnote at "which means" - used by Mark to explain translation from oneAramaic dialect to another. I've wondered why the difference between "forthis I was spared" and "why have you forsaken me?"God bless,Roseann EkmanThomas St. Church of ChristAltus, OK   Previous message: Latin in BarnabasNext message: Housman's Easter Hymn More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Harold R. Holmyard III hholmyard at ont.com Thu Apr 20 19:38:49 EDT 2000   Previous message: Housman's Easter Hymn Next message: Mark 15:34 Dear Bill, The Hebrew of "my God" at Ps 22:1 sounds just like HLI at Matt 27:46,but not like ELWI at Mark 15:34 if ELWI has a sound like "ELOI." The NIVStudy Bible states that in Matthew the words are a mixture of Hebrew andAramaic, and the NIV translation has conformed "Eloi" to the letters givenin Mark, it seems. The NIV translates "Eloi" in Mark.Yours,Harold Holmyard   Previous message: Housman's Easter HymnNext message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 roseann roseann at Intellisys.net Thu Apr 20 20:55:23 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 >Dear Roseann,> It has been some time since I studied Jesus' Aramaic quotation of Ps>22:1, but I remember finding Mr. Lamsa's translation a tendentious one. The>Aramaic $-B-Q (yielding SABACQANI in Mk 15:34) means in BDB "leave, let>alone." Now, "leave, let alone" might allow a translation "spare," but it>need not. I cannot remember the details right now, but I thought that Mr.>Lamsa was wrong.> Delitzsch says that SABACQANI is equivalent to $:BAQ:T.ANIY in Aramaic>(the second person singular perfect verb with a first singular suffix).>This looks just like Lamsa's shabakthani. And Delitzsch states that the>Aramaic is equivalent to the Hebrew at Ps 22:1 (which is equivalent to "you>have forsaken me").> Delitzsch adds that Jesus spoke in Aramaic "not in order that all may>understand it,-- for such a consideration was far from his mind at such a>time,-- but because the Aramaic was His mother tongue, for the same reason>that He called God )AB.F) ('Abba') in prayer."> > Yours,> Harold Holmyard> Hi Harold,Thank you. Yes, whenever I read Lamsa's version I only do so for comparisoncuriosity. Since I believe in the plenary verbal inspiration I wouldn'taccept anything seriously except that taken from the Hebrew or Greek (withexception to those passages where the writer records the other). In askinga friend to critique a comment from Glassman this is what I found: At Matt.27:46 and Mark 15:34 the LXX reads: "My God, my God, look thou upon me, whyhas thou forsaken me?" The phrase "look thou upon me" is not found in theHebrew text but was added by the LXX translators. But both Matthew and Markprefer to ignore the Greek (LXX) translation of the Psalm already availableto them and offer their own slightly different but adequate literalrenderings into Greek." (My friend noted in the margin that they quotedJesus, not the LXX.)Are you (or anyone on here) familiar with "The Translation Debate - WhatMakes a Bible Translation Good?" by Eugene H. Glassman? One of his chaptershas helped me in understanding the two different approaches in translating -form vs. content - Dynamic Equiv. and Lexical Equiv. and has dispelled myprejudice somewhat about the meaning of "paraphrases," but I'm wonderingwhat you all would say about his book.God bless,Roseann EkmanThomas St. Church of ChristAltus, OKhttp://www.showcase234.com/religion/pictures/roseann.htm   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com Thu Apr 20 21:10:26 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 <Roseann>Are you (or anyone on here) familiar with "The Translation Debate - WhatMakes a Bible Translation Good?" by Eugene H. Glassman? One of his chaptershas helped me in understanding the two different approaches in translating -form vs. content - Dynamic Equiv. and Lexical Equiv. and has dispelled myprejudice somewhat about the meaning of "paraphrases," but I'm wonderingwhat you all would say about his book.<Bill>You might want to subscribe to BibleTranslation and pose your translationphilosophy type questions there:BibleTranslation-subscribe at listbot.comAlso, you will find this same concern with Jay P Green, and perhaps a reviewof the book at:www.SovGracePub.comBill Ross   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Jack Kilmon jkilmon at historian.net Thu Apr 20 21:20:44 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 Bill Ross wrote:> > <Micheal>> ...However, this same utterance in Hebrew in transliteration (which I won't> even attempt to present since I do not know Hebrew) appears almost identical> to the Aramaic and it looks to me as though it would preserve the lexical> connection Eloi-Elijah as well as the Aramaic does.> > <Bill>> Can someone on the list provide an authoritative word on whether they are> truly homophonic?The Hebrew of Psalm 22 is:)ly )ly lmh (zbtny (Eli, Eli lameh azabtani)Mark transliterates in Greek:ELWI ELWI LAMMA SABAXQANIfor the Aramaic:Elahi Elahi lema shebaqtaniAs an Aramaicist I have given this a lot of thought and I am sure thatmost of us are familiar with the debates in scholarship over this. Thesedebates focus on whether these are ipsissima verba Iesu or wereplaced into the mouth of Jesus for theological reasons. Variationson the theme are later extensions of a simpler cry.After 40 years of study, I am happy to say, with confidence, thatI still have no clue.I am only confident, from a form critical standpoint, that this isone of the earliest traditions in first stratum material. I amgoing to fly with this as ipsissima verba Iesu and that it meantjust what it seems to be...a cry of pain and desparation fromsomeone who knew Psalm 22 well and its implications. His notusing the Hebrew could be because Jesus did not know Hebrew andwas familiar with scripture through targums....or, more likely,the audience for this cry was not above him but the Aramaicspeaking crowd below him.I think some scholars who try to dance around the cry from thecross do so as a special pleading because of the theologicalembarrassment of a despairing Jesus.I think Lamsa's take "For this I was spared" is one ofthose special pleadings based on the Syriac of thePeshitta and a play on the root for $bq.At this point, I lean toward:Yes, Jesus cried it out.Yes, he was feeling despair.Crucifixion hurts.Jack-- ______________________________________________taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkonJack Kilmonjkilmon at historian.nethttp://www.historian.netsharing a meal for free. http://www.thehungersite.com/   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Mark 15:34 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 roseann roseann at Intellisys.net Thu Apr 20 21:56:29 EDT 2000   Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Nine Choirs of Angels Hi Bill,Thanks. I am subscribed to the Translation list, but didn't realize I wasasking the question on the wrong list, since this one was talking about Mark15:34. Sorry. Thanks for the other link.God bless,Roseann><Roseann>>Are you (or anyone on here) familiar with "The Translation Debate - What>Makes a Bible Translation Good?" by Eugene H. Glassman? One of hischapters>has helped me in understanding the two different approaches intranslating ->form vs. content - Dynamic Equiv. and Lexical Equiv. and has dispelled my>prejudice somewhat about the meaning of "paraphrases," but I'm wondering>what you all would say about his book.> ><Bill>>You might want to subscribe to BibleTranslation and pose your translation>philosophy type questions there:> >BibleTranslation-subscribe at listbot.com> >Also, you will find this same concern with Jay P Green, and perhaps areview>of the book at:> >www.SovGracePub.com> >Bill Ross> > >---> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>You are currently subscribed to as: roseann at Intellisys.net>To unsubscribe, forward this message to$subst('Email.Unsub')>To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > >   Previous message: Mark 15:34Next message: Nine Choirs of Angels More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Rolf Furuli furuli at online.no Fri Apr 21 18:19:09 EDT 2000   Previous message: Nine Choirs of Angels Next message: LXX Deut 29:17(18) & Heb. 12:15 Michael Ryle wrote:> Mark 15:34 reports that Jesus cried out in a loud voice: ELWI ELWI>LEMA SABACQANI; The Jerome Commentary indicates that this is an Aramaic>version of Psalm 22:2. For a long time I have have been curious about>this passage. Why does Jesus quote the Hebrew scriptures in Aramaic? On>the cross under the extreme stress of the moment did he spontaneously>translate the psalm as he knew it into his own spoken language? Or was>he quoting from an Aramaic source, a targum? If so, why would he quote>from that instead of the Hebrew which he surely would have known? In the>gospels when Jesus quotes scripture, except for this one case, I believe>it's true that he always does so in Greek -- at least I can't think of>another instance. Why is this case different and what does it mean? I'm>curious to know if anyone else has wondered about this. I am a newcomer>both to Biblical Greek and to this list and I would like to express my>gratitude to Jonathan Robie and the other members of the list for the>tremendous help you offer to someone like me who is struggling to learn>how to read the New Testament in the eerily beautiful language in>which it was written.> Dear Michael,I have the following philological comments: Both Hebrew and Aramaic werespoken in Palestine in the days of Jesus. But we do not know whether Hebrewor Aramaic was the language used by the common people. In my view, theevidence points in the direction that Jesus normally spoke Hebrew, and thatis also the name used for the language in John 5:2; 19:13,17,20;20:16; Acts21:40; 22:2 and 26:14. In some of these instances words that have Aramaiccharacteristics are said to be "Hebrew",but these words are names, so theword "Hebrew" need not be understood as "Aramaic". We can for instance saythat the islands in the northern part of the Atlantic Ocean with Norwegianjurisdiction in Norwegian is called "Spitsbergen", but the name is actuallyGermanThe cry of Jesus is not unproblematic, when we ask which language Jesus used.It is clear that SABACQANI which is found both in Mark 15.34 and Matt.25:47, is Aramaic. The word LEMA, found both in Matthew and Mark, isAramaic as well, but Codex Vaticanus has LAMA in Mark, and this is Hebrew.The word HLI in Matthew is Hebrew and Mark's ELWI is "more" Hebrew thanAramaic. The word "my god" in Aramaic is ELAHI (long "a")/Greek ELAI/, inHebrew: ELOHAY /Greek ELWAI/ if ELOHIM is the noun; and possibly (but notwitnessed): ELOHI /Greek ELWI/ if ELOAH is the noun.Thus Mark has two Aramaic words and one (used two times) Hebrew/hebraizedword. Matthew has two Aramaic words and one (used two times) Hebrew word(or, according to Vaticanus: one Aramaic word and two Hebrew ones).It is interesting that Codex Bezae in Mark has four Hebrew words: HLI ELILAMA ZAFQANI, and the last one evidently is a transcription of the Hebrew)AZAFTANI "to leave", which is found in Psalm 22:1.The Targum to Psalm 22:2(=22:1) has ELI,ELI (but it has two other words instead of LEMA). Thisshows that a Hebrew word (ELI) *could* be used in an Aramaic text. But thisalso implies that the reverse could occur and an Aramaic word could be usedin a Hebrew text. Thus we cannot with certainty know which words werespoken, and whether the language was Aramaic or Hebrew or a mix of both.But the evidence at our disposition favours the view the verse was spokenin Aramaic.RegardsRolfRolf FuruliUniversity of Oslo   Previous message: Nine Choirs of AngelsNext message: LXX Deut 29:17(18) & Heb. 12:15 More information about the mailing list Mark 15:34 Eszter ESZTER.ANDORKA at student.kuleuven.ac.be Sat Apr 22 03:51:59 EDT 2000   Previous message: LXX Deut 29:17(18) & Heb. 12:15 Next message: imperative moods? Some remarks:1. Aramaic/Hebrew quote: I agree those who says that Jesus had aramaic asfirst language, but we do not really know the Aramaic of Galilee in thefirst c. We do not have many witnesses, and even those are - logically -not vocalised. I think nobody claims to reallyknow how the Ps 22 soundedin the local dialect of Jesus. It makes very difficult to tell on alinguistic basis what is Hebrew, what is Aramaic in such a short text. 2. Elijah, v. 35-36: As a consequence of the above mentionned, we are notin the position to say how the pronounciation of the two words relate toeach other. Most scholars says - as it was written by other list members -that Elijah and Eloi sound slightly different (and Mt 28 can be an attemptto make the misunderstanding more plausible). What we can do is to takethe marcan context into account. It is about the various forms ofthe mockery of Jesus. I think the marcan text suggests a deliberate,ironic misunderstanding. 3. Better be carefull with the written targums that we have. Those of thePsalms are from a much later age than the gospels. We can well supposethat there were more targums with different tendencies and biases, maybeon different dialects. ByeEszter   Previous message: LXX Deut 29:17(18) & Heb. 12:15Next message: imperative moods? More information about the mailing list We are finally able to provide the published text of the article on the "cry of dereliction" from the Brill volume, The Language Environment of First Century Judaea, Randall Buth and R Steven Notley edd., (Brill, 2014, ISBN 9789004263406). The PDF of Randall Buth, "The Riddle of Jesus' Cry from the Cross: the Meaning of ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (Matthew 27:46) and the Literary Function of ελωι ελωι λειμα σαβαχθανι (Mark 15:34)" is avaiable at: www.biblicalLanguageCenter.com under "community" "BLC blog" It is a fitting read/study for passion week. Statistics: Posted by RandallButh — April 17th, 2014, 4:54 am

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