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Mark 4:29

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Mark 4:26-29 wrote:Καὶ ἔλεγεν, Οὕτως ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, ὡς ἐὰν ἄνθρωπος βάλῃ τὸν σπόρον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ καθεύδῃ καὶ ἐγείρηται νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν, καὶ ὁ σπόρος βλαστάνῃ καὶ μηκύνηται ὡς οὐκ οἶδεν αὐτός. Αὐτομάτη γὰρ ἡ γῆ καρποφορεῖ, πρῶτον χόρτον, εἶτα στάχυν, εἶτα πλήρη σῖτον ἐν τῷ στάχυϊ. Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός, εὐθέως ἀποστέλλει τὸ δρέπανον, ὅτι παρέστηκεν ὁ θερισμός.
In BDAG the meaning is παραδῷ "allow", while the natural sense in the sequence if growth is ”ripen". Any thoughts either way?
παραδῷ is aorist; "ripen" is a process word. I'd think that idiomatic English would have to be "is ripe" or better, "is ready for harvest (has yielded its crop)".
I think Carl's gloss, "yield", is the most helpful thing on this thread thus far. "When the crop yields..." It does fit nicely with the more popular usages of the verb. Statistics: Posted by Jordan Day — May 10th, 2014, 12:15 pm
 
Αὐτομάτη γὰρ ἡ γῆ καρποφορεῖ, (1)
    • πρῶτον χόρτον,
(2)
    • εἶτα στάχυν,
(3)
    εἶτα πλήρη σῖτον ἐν τῷ στάχυϊ.
Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός, εὐθέως ἀποστέλλει τὸ δρέπανον, ὅτι παρέστηκεν ὁ θερισμός.
I took the wrong sense of δὲ then. There is a three stage development of the grain, not four. It is more "And (as we know), when...", rather than "And (following that) when...". πλήρη σῖτον ἐν τῷ στάχυϊ is reexpressed from different points of view by Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός and παρέστηκεν ὁ θερισμός. Rather than there being a next (fourth) step. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — May 5th, 2014, 9:14 am
 
Stephen Hughes wrote: It looks like active in form, middle in sense. "Sitting there asking to be harvested", which in effect means "be ripe". I think that ascribing the "permit" meaning was a valiant attempt to retain the active sense of the active form. It looks very contorted, where as allowing an active form to have middle sense makes it much more readily consistent with other uses of the verb (normal). I think there will be flow-on consequences for lexicographers from your subject-markedness hypothesis.
Stephen, this has absolutely nothing to do with middle-voice and subject-affectedness -- I really can think about other things! This is simply a matter of idiom: it's like "weather permitting" or "deo volente" or "with your permission" or "s'il vows plaît" or "weather permitting." I know it sometimes seems like the weather has a will of its own, but does anyone seriously attribute a will of his own to Jupiter Pluvius? What's wrong with "If the crop permits" or "if the crop is ready for the reaper." Of course, it's implicit that the crop has ripened, but that's not what the phrasing actually says. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — May 5th, 2014, 8:21 am
It looks like active in form, middle in sense. "Sitting there asking to be harvested", which in effect means "be ripe". I think that ascribing the "permit" meaning was a valiant attempt to retain the active sense of the active form. It looks very contorted, where as allowing an active form to have middle sense makes it much more readily consistent with other uses of the verb (normal). I think there will be flow-on consequences for lexicographers from your subject-markedness hypothesis. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — May 5th, 2014, 7:09 am
 
Stephen Hughes wrote:
LSJ wrote:II. grant, bestow, “κῦδός τισι” Pi.P.2.52 in pres. and impf., offer, allow, “αἵρεσιν” Id.N.10.83.
    2. c. inf., allow one to . . , Hdt.1.210, 6.103, al.: c. acc. rei, permit, “ὁ θεὸς τοῦτό γε οὐ παρεδίδου” Id.5.67; πληγὴν . . παραδοθεῖσαν εἰσιδών a blow offered, i. e. opportunity of striking, E.Ph.1393: abs., τοῦ θεοῦ παραδιδόντος if he permits, Hdt.7.18; “ἢν οἱ θεοὶ παραδιδῶσιν” X.An.6.6.34; “ὅπως ἂν οἱ καιροὶ παραδιδῶσιν” Isoc.5.118; “τῆς ὥρας παραδιδούσης” Plb.21.41.9: less freq. in aor., “πότμου παραδόντος” Pi.P.5.3; “ὡς ἂν ὁ δαίμων παραδῷ” D.60.19.
 
I get what you guys are saying about nuance of the aorist and the other text form. Have a second look at the sentence here. It seems to me that all the other New Testament uses of παραδίδωμι are in "normal" grammatical sentences where the meaning is in some way shape or form related to what we’d expect the verb to mean. The LSJ refers to present and imperfect meaning ”allow". Even ignoring the tense requirenent, fruits don't "allow". If you saw Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός by itself, what would you make of it? I think that ripen is a logical best guess in the circumstances, but I suspect that we are missing something idiomatic by reading only the circumstances and not also this phrase itself with its own efficacy.
Okay, and I'll add BDAG:
4. to make it possible for someth. to happen, allow, permit (Hdt. 5, 67; 7, 18 [subj. ὁ θεός]; X., An. 6, 6, 34 [οἱ θεοί]; Isocr. 5, 118 [οἱ καιροί]; Polyb. 22, 24, 9 τῆς ὥρας παραδιδούσης) ὅταν παραδοῖ ὁ καρπός when the (condition of the) crop permits Mk 4:29.—On the whole word: WPopkes, Christus Traditus, ’67.—M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq. Sv.
I think that "allow, permit" is probably the idiomatic sense here, after all. There's the idiomatic sense of conditions suitable to performance of an operation; we say, for instance, "I'll do that in the morning, weather permitting." So here, I guess, we should say, "when the crop permits (it), the overseer sends out the reaper." But this is not so far removed from the other usages of παραδοῦνδαι ("deliver", "surrender", "make available" -- or doesn't seem so far to me. I certainly can't see anything like "ripen" here, although the ripening process must surely have proceeded apace for the harvest to be possible. If anything's different, it's that we don't seem to have an agent functioning volitionally but a natural process reaching a certain stage so as to make the harvest possible. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — May 5th, 2014, 6:19 am
 
LSJ wrote: II. grant, bestow, “κῦδός τισι” Pi.P.2.52 in pres. and impf., offer, allow, “αἵρεσιν” Id.N.10.83.
    2. c. inf., allow one to . . , Hdt.1.210, 6.103, al.: c. acc. rei, permit, “ὁ θεὸς τοῦτό γε οὐ παρεδίδου” Id.5.67; πληγὴν . . παραδοθεῖσαν εἰσιδών a blow offered, i. e. opportunity of striking, E.Ph.1393: abs., τοῦ θεοῦ παραδιδόντος if he permits, Hdt.7.18; “ἢν οἱ θεοὶ παραδιδῶσιν” X.An.6.6.34; “ὅπως ἂν οἱ καιροὶ παραδιδῶσιν” Isoc.5.118; “τῆς ὥρας παραδιδούσης” Plb.21.41.9: less freq. in aor., “πότμου παραδόντος” Pi.P.5.3; “ὡς ἂν ὁ δαίμων παραδῷ” D.60.19.
 
I get what you guys are saying about nuance of the aorist and the other text form. Have a second look at the sentence here. It seems to me that all the other New Testament uses of παραδίδωμι are in "normal" grammatical sentences where the meaning is in some way shape or form related to what we’d expect the verb to mean. The LSJ refers to present and imperfect meaning ”allow". Even ignoring the tense requirenent, fruits don't "allow". If you saw Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός by itself, what would you make of it? I think that ripen is a logical best guess in the circumstances, but I suspect that we are missing something idiomatic by reading only the circumstances and not also this phrase itself with its own efficacy. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — May 4th, 2014, 7:11 pm
I agree in part with Carl. The earlier B/03 (c. 325-375 CE) shows ΟΤΑΝΔΕΠΑΡΑΔΟΙΟΚΑΡΠΟΣ (οταν δε παραδοι ο καρπος, or whenever is ripe the crop). Later, in ℵ/01 (which initially read as B/03), ΠΑΡΑΔΟΙ (παραδοι) was changed to read ΠΑΡΑΔΩ (παραδω). A/02 and later mss appear, IMO, to be based on the re-wording in ℵ/01 at Mark 4:29. Statistics: Posted by Pat Ferguson — May 4th, 2014, 2:13 pm
 
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Mark 4:26-29 wrote:Καὶ ἔλεγεν, Οὕτως ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, ὡς ἐὰν ἄνθρωπος βάλῃ τὸν σπόρον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ καθεύδῃ καὶ ἐγείρηται νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν, καὶ ὁ σπόρος βλαστάνῃ καὶ μηκύνηται ὡς οὐκ οἶδεν αὐτός. Αὐτομάτη γὰρ ἡ γῆ καρποφορεῖ, πρῶτον χόρτον, εἶτα στάχυν, εἶτα πλήρη σῖτον ἐν τῷ στάχυϊ. Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός, εὐθέως ἀποστέλλει τὸ δρέπανον, ὅτι παρέστηκεν ὁ θερισμός.
In BDAG the meaning is παραδῷ "allow", while the natural sense in the sequence if growth is ”ripen". Any thoughts either way?
παραδῷ is aorist; "ripen" is a process word. I'd think that idiomatic English would have to be "is ripe" or better, "is ready for harvest (has yielded its crop)". Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — May 4th, 2014, 12:30 pm
 
Mark 4:26-29 wrote: Καὶ ἔλεγεν, Οὕτως ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, ὡς ἐὰν ἄνθρωπος βάλῃ τὸν σπόρον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ καθεύδῃ καὶ ἐγείρηται νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν, καὶ ὁ σπόρος βλαστάνῃ καὶ μηκύνηται ὡς οὐκ οἶδεν αὐτός. Αὐτομάτη γὰρ ἡ γῆ καρποφορεῖ, πρῶτον χόρτον, εἶτα στάχυν, εἶτα πλήρη σῖτον ἐν τῷ στάχυϊ. Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός, εὐθέως ἀποστέλλει τὸ δρέπανον, ὅτι παρέστηκεν ὁ θερισμός.
In BDAG the meaning is παραδῷ "allow", while the natural sense in the sequence if growth is ”ripen". Any thoughts either way? Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — May 4th, 2014, 9:58 am