Matthew 28:19

[] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA Don Dwight dddwight1234 at sbcglobal.net
Wed Oct 3 18:59:38 EDT 2007

[] PAS in Colossians 1:15-20 and tense in v.20 [] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA Does Mt 28:19 contain the double accusative construction?Mt 28:16 οἱ δὲ ἕνδεκα μαθηταὶ ἐπορεύθησαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν εἰς τὸ ὄρος οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς 17 καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν 18 καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς 19 πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος 20 διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος Mt 28:16 hOI DE hENDEKA MAQHTAI EPOREUQHSAN EIS THN GALILAIAN EIS TO OROS hOU ETAXATO AUTOIS hO IHSOUS 17 KAI IDONTES AUTON PROSEKUNHSAN hOI DE EDISTASAN 18 KAI PROSELQWN hO IHSOUS ELALHSEN AUTOIS LEGWN EDOQH MOI PASA EXOUSIA EN OURANWi KAI EPI THS GHS 19 POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA ENETEILAMHN hUMIN KAI IDOU EGW MEQ hUMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS hEWS THS SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS The double accusative in v. 16 … EIS THN GALILAIAN EIS TO OROS OU …signals the double accusative in v. 19 … [EIS TO] AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …and the phrasing of v. 19 lends itself to the double accusative construction:POREUQENTES OUNMAQHTEUSATEPANTA TA EQNH BAPTIZONTESAUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …making the sense of this part of v. 19 to be … MAQHTEUSATEBAPTIZONTES PANTA TA EQNH[EIS TO] AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …since MAQHTEUSATE (“be who you are do what you do” aorist) can be intransitive and BAPTIZONTES implies TINA EIS (TO) ONOMA TINOSand AUTOUS are already EIS TO ONOMA TOU …as in v. 20 … (EGW (MEQ hUMWN) EIMI) …and EIS in the first EIS TO is revealed by EIS in AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …and TO in the first EIS TO mingles (crasis) with AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …Donald D. DwightMonterey, California

[] PAS in Colossians 1:15-20 and tense in v.20[] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA

[] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Oct 5 09:26:13 EDT 2007

[] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA [] Cross-References & Quotations in NA27 and UBS4 On Oct 3, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Don Dwight wrote:> Does Mt 28:19 contain the double accusative construction?> > Mt 28:16 οἱ δὲ ἕνδεκα μαθηταὶ > ἐπορεύθησαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν > εἰς τὸ ὄρος> οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς 17 > καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν > οἱ δὲ> ἐδίστασαν 18 καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ > Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων > ἐδόθη μοι> πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ > τῆς γῆς 19 πορευθέντες οὖν > μαθητεύσατε> πάντα τὰ ἔθνη βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς > εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ > υἱοῦ> καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος 20 > διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα > ὅσα> ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ > μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας > ἕως τῆς> συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος> > Mt 28:16 hOI DE hENDEKA MAQHTAI EPOREUQHSAN EIS THN GALILAIAN EIS TO> OROS hOU ETAXATO AUTOIS hO IHSOUS 17 KAI IDONTES AUTON > PROSEKUNHSAN hOI> DE EDISTASAN 18 KAI PROSELQWN hO IHSOUS ELALHSEN AUTOIS LEGWN > EDOQH MOI> PASA EXOUSIA EN OURANWi KAI EPI THS GHS 19 POREUQENTES OUN > MAQHTEUSATE> PANTA TA EQNH BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU> KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA> ENETEILAMHN hUMIN KAI IDOU EGW MEQ hUMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS > hEWS THS> SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS> > The double accusative in v. 16 … EIS THN GALILAIAN EIS TO OROS > OU …> signals the double accusative in v. 19 … [EIS TO] AUTOUS EIS TO > ONOMA> TOU …> and the phrasing of v. 19 lends itself to the double accusative> construction:> POREUQENTES OUN> MAQHTEUSATE> PANTA TA EQNH BAPTIZONTES> AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …> making the sense of this part of v. 19 to be> … MAQHTEUSATE> BAPTIZONTES PANTA TA EQNH> [EIS TO] AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU …> since MAQHTEUSATE (“be who you are do what you do” aorist) can be> intransitive and BAPTIZONTES implies TINA EIS (TO) ONOMA TINOS> and AUTOUS are already EIS TO ONOMA TOU …> as in v. 20 … (EGW (MEQ hUMWN) EIMI) …> and EIS in the first EIS TO is revealed by EIS in AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA> TOU …> and TO in the first EIS TO mingles (crasis) with AUTOUS EIS TO > ONOMA TOU …I think there’s a misuse of terminology here. “Double accusative” as commonly used refers to one or another of two constructions in which accusative case forms function as complements of the verb:(1) a verb takes one direct object of the person and a second object of the thing:e.g. John 14:26 ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα EKEINOS hUMAS DIDAXEI PANTA “He will teach you everything.” Here hUMAS indicates the persons who will be taught, while PANTA indicates the content of the teaching.(2) a verb takes a direct object and a predicate accusative of a substantive or adjective that characterizes the direct object:e.g. Matt 22:43 Δαυὶδ ἐν πνεύματι καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον DAUID EN PNEUMATI KALEI AUTON KURION “David by inspiration calls him “Lord.” Here AUTON is the direct object and KURION is the predicate word characterizing AUTON.The constructions you refer to above confound accusative objects of verbs with substantives that are objects of prepositions within prepositional phrases. EIS THN GALILAIAN and EIS TO OROS are both prepositional phrases with substantives functioning as objects of the preposition. Those accusative-case forms cannot be construed apart from the prepositions that govern them.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

[] Mt 28:19 AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA[] Cross-References & Quotations in NA27 and UBS4

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS Benjamin Raymond braymond at ipa.net
Wed Jul 1 23:52:50 EDT 1998

1 Tim 2:12 tameion: scatological? Hi all,I’ve previously read PANTA TA EQNH in Mt 28.19 as the antecedent of AUTOUS. For some reason I overlooked the gender difference.Is there an explicit antecedent for AUTOUS?Thanks,Ben—————————————————————————Benjamin Raymondsenior, Harding University School of Biblical Studiesbraymond at ipa.netHU Box 11871, 900 E CenterSearcy, AR 72149-0001501-279-4820

1 Tim 2:12tameion: scatological?

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Jul 2 07:38:22 EDT 1998

Fw: Concepts and Words Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS At 11:52 PM -0400 7/01/98, Benjamin Raymond wrote:>Hi all,> >I’ve previously read PANTA TA EQNH in Mt 28.19 as the antecedent of AUTOUS.> For some reason I overlooked the gender difference.> >Is there an explicit antecedent for AUTOUS?I think you were right the first time, Ben. EQNH happens to be neuterplural, but it refers to Gentile persons in this instance, I think we oughtto say, and therefore the generic masculine plural pronoun is used for itin this instance; certainly there is no other masculine plural antecedent.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

Fw: Concepts and WordsMt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS Benjamin Raymond braymond at ipa.net
Thu Jul 2 17:31:53 EDT 1998

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUS Re. PISTEI VOOUMEN KATHRTISQAI TOUS AIWNAS… Heb. 11:3 At 07:38 AM 7/2/98 -0400, you wrote:>At 11:52 PM -0400 7/01/98, Benjamin Raymond wrote:>>Hi all,>> >>I’ve previously read PANTA TA EQNH in Mt 28.19 as the antecedent of AUTOUS.>> For some reason I overlooked the gender difference.>> >>Is there an explicit antecedent for AUTOUS?> > >I think you were right the first time, Ben. EQNH happens to be neuter>plural, but it refers to Gentile persons in this instance, I think we ought>to say, and therefore the generic masculine plural pronoun is used for it>in this instance; certainly there is no other masculine plural antecedent.Fair enough. I’d seen where neuter plural nouns sometimes take thesingular verb form (i.e., 2 Jno 13), but the disagreement in gender here isnew to me.Are there some syntactical parallels which might help me better grasp thepractice of using masculine pronouns in the generic sense like this?—————————————————————————Benjamin Raymondsenior, Harding University School of Biblical Studiesbraymond at ipa.netHU Box 11871, 900 E CenterSearcy, AR 72149-0001501-279-4820

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUSRe. PISTEI VOOUMEN KATHRTISQAI TOUS AIWNAS… Heb. 11:3

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 Thomas Hagen thomas.hagen at libero.it
Thu Dec 3 16:38:33 EST 2009

[] Greek text with lexicon [] Matthew 28: 19,20 Dear friends – I have two questions concerning Matthew 28:19, 20. 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. 19πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνευματος, 20διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μετ’ ὑμῶν εἰμὶ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος. 19POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH, BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS, 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA ENETEILAMHN UMIN· KAI IDOU EGW MET’ UMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS hEWS THS SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS. The first question concerns the participles βαπτίζοντες / BAPTIZONTES and διδάσκοντες / DIDASKONTES. I would like to ask if these participles are causal or descriptive; that is, do they explain how disciples are to be made (by baptizing… and by teaching…) or do they describe what accompanies the making of disciples (baptism and teaching). There may not be a great difference between the two, but if Greek makes such a difference I would like to know. The second question concerns the meaning of τηρεῖν / THREIN in verse 20. I would like to know if in this context it means keep in the sense of “putting into practice” or in the sense of “preserving, conserving, guarding carefully so as not to lose”. I hope I have succeeded in clearly explaining my questions. Thank you for any enlightenment you can give me. Thomas HagenLivorno, Italy

[] Greek text with lexicon[] Matthew 28: 19,20

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 3 17:35:13 EST 2009

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 [] Matthew 28: 19,20 Thomas egraspe: <The first question concerns the participles βαπτίζοντες / BAPTIZONTES and διδάσκοντες / DIDASKONTES. I would like to ask if these participles are causal or descriptive; that is, do they explain how disciples are to be made (by baptizing… and by teaching…) or do they describe what accompanies the making of disciples (baptism and teaching). There may not be a great difference between the two, but if Greek makes such a difference I would like to know.> Hi, Thomas, I don’t think there is anything in the Greek which wouldsettle this either way.  Nothing prevents one from takingthe participle as causal.  Nothing forces one to.  Participleplus finite verb, or finite verb plus participle, or participleplus finite verb plus another participle.  This is such a GREEKway of writing, from Homer to the NT, and it alwaysresults in ambiguity.  Something else, the context,always decides questions like this.  This is really themeta Greek Urban Legend that Jeff R. has been trying to explain, that knowing the Greek EVER helpsyou settle a question like this.   But that does notmean you should not ask the question. It is a goodone.   Mark LFWSFOROS MARKOS— On Thu, 12/3/09, Thomas Hagen <thomas.hagen at libero.it> wrote:From: Thomas Hagen <thomas.hagen at libero.it>Subject: [] Matthew 28: 19,20To: “” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:38 PMDear friends –I have two questions concerning Matthew 28:19, 20.19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.19πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνευματος, 20διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μετ’ ὑμῶν εἰμὶ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.19POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH, BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS, 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA ENETEILAMHN UMIN· KAI IDOU EGW MET’ UMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS hEWS THS SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS.The first question concerns the participles βαπτίζοντες / BAPTIZONTES and διδάσκοντες / DIDASKONTES. I would like to ask if these participles are causal or descriptive; that is, do they explain how disciples are to be made (by baptizing… and by teaching…) or do they describe what accompanies the making of disciples (baptism and teaching). There may not be a great difference between the two, but if Greek makes such a difference I would like to know.The second question concerns the meaning of τηρεῖν / THREIN in verse 20. I would like to know if in this context it means keep in the sense of “putting into practice” or in the sense of “preserving, conserving, guarding carefully so as not to lose”. I hope I have succeeded in clearly explaining my questions. Thank you for any enlightenment you can give me.Thomas HagenLivorno, Italy — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

[] Matthew 28: 19,20[] Matthew 28: 19,20

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 3 18:40:55 EST 2009

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 [] Matthew 28: 19,20 It is a matter of interpretation, but I would understand the participles here as expressing the manner in which they were to perform the action of the main verbs. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Thomas Hagen <thomas.hagen at libero.it>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 4:38:33 PMSubject: [] Matthew 28: 19,20Dear friends –I have two questions concerning Matthew 28:19, 20.19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.19πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνευματος, 20διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μετ’ ὑμῶν εἰμὶ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.19POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH, BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS, 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA ENETEILAMHN UMIN· KAI IDOU EGW MET’ UMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS hEWS THS SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS.The first question concerns the participles βαπτίζοντες / BAPTIZONTES and διδάσκοντες / DIDASKONTES. I would like to ask if these participles are causal or descriptive; that is, do they explain how disciples are to be made (by baptizing… and by teaching…) or do they describe what accompanies the making of disciples (baptism and teaching). There may not be a great difference between the two, but if Greek makes such a difference I would like to know.The second question concerns the meaning of τηρεῖν / THREIN in verse 20. I would like to know if in this context it means keep in the sense of “putting into practice” or in the sense of “preserving, conserving, guarding carefully so as not to lose”. I hope I have succeeded in clearly explaining my questions. Thank you for any enlightenment you can give me.Thomas HagenLivorno, Italy — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

[] Matthew 28: 19,20[] Matthew 28: 19,20

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Thu Dec 3 22:46:33 EST 2009

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 [] Matthew 28: 19,20 I’m no 24 carat grammarian, and don’t know much about linguistics, but I would be inclined to see BAPTIZONTES and DIDASKONTES as both modal and adverbial participles describing manner. Can’t they be both in Greek? We distinguish these functions in English … but in Greek, it is a tough call. Of course the first participle POREUQENTES (Mat 28:18) is most likely modal, sharing the mode of the principle verb of its clause. (This is a category used by BDF). Some examples:Gen 12:19Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her, and be gone.” ‏לָמָ֤ה אָמַ֙רְתָּ֙ אֲחֹ֣תִי הִ֔וא וָאֶקַּ֥ח אֹתָ֛הּ לִ֖י לְאִשָּׁ֑ה וְעַתָּ֕ה הִנֵּ֥ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֖ קַ֥ח וָלֵֽךְ׃laœma® }aœmartaœ }∞hΩoœt◊ˆî hiw} waœ}eqqahΩ }oœt◊a®h lˆî l§}isûsûa® w§{atta® hinne® }isût§k≈aœ qahΩ waœleœk≈:ἵνα τί εἶπας ὅτι Ἀδελφή μού ἐστιν; καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὴν ἐμαυτῷ εἰς γυναῖκα. καὶ νῦν ἰδοὺ ἡ γυνή σου ἐναντίον σου· λαβὼν ἀπότρεχε.. hINA TI EIPAS hOTI ADELFH ESTIN? KAI ELABON AUTHN EMAUTWi EIS GUNAIKA. KAI NUN IDOU hH GUNH SOU ENANTION SOU LABWN APOTRECE.Gen 13:17Rise up, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you. ἀναστὰς διόδευσον τὴν γῆν εἴς τε τὸ μῆκος αὐτῆς καὶ εἰς τὸ πλάτος, ὅτι σοὶ δώσω αὐτήν. Gen 27:9Go to the flock, and get me two choice kidsκαὶ πορευθεὶς εἰς τὰ πρόβατα λαβέ μοι ἐκεῖθεν δύο ἐρίφουςKAI POREUQEIS EIS TA PROBATA LABE MOI EKEQEN DUO ERIFOUS Ex 5:18νῦν οὖν πορευθέντες ἐργάζεσθε· NUN OUN POREUQENTES ERGAZESQEAbout the participles BAPTIZONTES and DIDASKONTES, I imagine that a search for the pattern—imperative verb followed by participles (whose putative agent [subject]) is the same as the imperative verb would be best considered modal as well. Here are some interesting examples: Mk 9:22βοήθησον ἡμῖν σπλαγχνισθεὶς ἐφ᾿ ἡμᾶς.BOHQHSON hHMIN SPLAGCNISQEIS EF’ hHMAS (I think this one is a fairly clear example of a modal type participle).Mk 15:30σῶσον σεαυτὸν καταβὰς ἀπὸ τοῦ σταυροῦSWSON SEAUTON KATABAS APO TOU STAUROU (this one seems modal)Lk 5:24ἔγειρε καὶ ἄρας τὸ κλινίδιόν σου πορεύου εἰς τὸν οἶκόν σουEGEIRE KAI ARAS TO KLINIDION SOU POREUOU EIS TON OIKON SOU (modal)Lk 10:7ἐν αὐτῇ δὲ τῇ οἰκίᾳ μένετε ἐσθίοντες καὶ πίνοντεςEN AUTH DE TH OIKIA MENETE ESQIONTES KAI PINONTES (ambiguous).Has anyone done a more thorough NT/LXX search?This one was interesting to me. An imperatival noun phrase followed by, among other things, “imperatival” or “modal” participles:Rom 12:9-12Ἡ ἀγάπη ἀνυπόκριτος. ἀποστυγοῦντες τὸ πονηρόν, κολλώμενοι τῷ ἀγαθῷ, τῇ φιλαδελφίᾳ εἰς ἀλλήλους φιλόστοργοι, τῇ τιμῇ ἀλλήλους προηγούμενοι, τῇ σπουδῇ μὴ ὀκνηροί, τῷ πνεύματι ζέοντες, τῷ κυρίῳ δουλεύοντες, τῇ ἐλπίδι χαίροντες, τῇ θλίψει ὑπομένοντες, τῇ προσευχῇ προσκαρτεροῦντες, ταῖς χρείαις τῶν ἁγίων κοινωνοῦντες, τὴν φιλοξενίαν διώκοντες.hH AGAPH ANUPOKRITOS, APOSTUGOUNTES TO PONHRON, KOLLWMENOI TWi AGAQWiTH FILADELFIA EIS ALLHLOUS FILOSTORGOI, THi TIMH ALLHLOUS PROHGOUMENOI,THi SPOUDHi MH OKNHROI, TWi PNEUMATI ZEONTES, TWi KURIW DOULEUONTES,THi ELPIDI CAIRONTES, THi QLIYEI hUPOMENONTES, THi PROSECHi PROSKARTEROUNTES, TAIS CREIAIS TWN hAGIWN KOINWNOUNTES, THN FILOXENIAN DIWKONTES. Yancy Smith, PhDyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 3, 2009, at 5:40 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> It is a matter of interpretation, but I would understand the participles here as expressing the manner in which they were to perform the action of the main verbs.> > george> gfsomsel > > > … search for truth, hear truth, > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, > defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________ > > > > > ________________________________> From: Thomas Hagen <thomas.hagen at libero.it>> To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 4:38:33 PM> Subject: [] Matthew 28: 19,20> > Dear friends –> > > > I have two questions concerning Matthew 28:19, 20.> > > > 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.> > > > 19πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνευματος, 20διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μετ’ ὑμῶν εἰμὶ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.> > > > 19POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH, BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS, > > 20 DIDASKONTES AUTOUS THREIN PANTA hOSA ENETEILAMHN UMIN· KAI IDOU EGW MET’ UMWN EIMI PASAS TAS hHMERAS hEWS THS SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS.> > > > > > The first question concerns the participles βαπτίζοντες / BAPTIZONTES and διδάσκοντες / DIDASKONTES. I would like to ask if these participles are causal or descriptive; that is, do they explain how disciples are to be made (by baptizing… and by teaching…) or do they describe what accompanies the making of disciples (baptism and teaching). There may not be a great difference between the two, but if Greek makes such a difference I would like to know.> > > > The second question concerns the meaning of τηρεῖν / THREIN in verse 20. I would like to know if in this context it means keep in the sense of “putting into practice” or in the sense of “preserving, conserving, guarding carefully so as not to lose”. > > > > I hope I have succeeded in clearly explaining my questions. Thank you for any enlightenment you can give me.> > > > Thomas Hagen> > Livorno, Italy >> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > >> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

[] Matthew 28: 19,20[] Matthew 28: 19,20

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 John Sanders john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com
Fri Dec 4 06:38:03 EST 2009

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 [] Matthew 28: 19,20 I view this way,First, the participals are are related to a substantive in an adjectivalrelation. The substantive here is the participal POREUQENTES, which goesback to verse 16, the MAQHTAI, specifically the eleven. Using Thomas’sterminology, it is descriptive-the ones sent…be baptizing…be teaching.Secondly, the participals are related to the main verb, MAQHTEUSATE in asupporting role, they are making disciples (while)…baptizing…teaching.Again, using Thomas’s terminology, they are causal.So I would think the answer lies in which direction one is viewing theparticipals-as adjectives toward the subject (descriptive) or as verbstoward the object (causal). In this case the subjects are MAQHTAI and theobjects are MAQHTAI-in-the-making.– John SandersSuzhou, China

[] Matthew 28: 19,20[] Matthew 28: 19,20

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Dec 4 06:54:45 EST 2009

[] Phemister Greek NT Audio [] How about a audio Bible? It is terminological choices, sometimes those of traditional grammatical analysis, all too often those of academic linguists, that drive me up the wall, especially when they are inconsistent with the choices made by others. I think there is no greater impediment to meaningful discussion of grammatical structures than lack of consensus on descriptive terminology. I don’t fault anyone in particular here, because I think we are all guilty of it. I have problems here with some fundamental terms and the way they seem to be applied.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (ret) On Friday, December 04, 2009, at 06:38AM, “John Sanders” <john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com> wrote:>I view this way,> >First, the participals are are related to a substantive in an adjectival>relation. The substantive here is the participal POREUQENTES, which goes>back to verse 16, the MAQHTAI, specifically the eleven. Using Thomas’s>terminology, it is descriptive-the ones sent…be baptizing…be teaching.CWC: I simply don’t understand this; I wouldn’t call POREUQENTES a substantive at all; MAQHTAI is indeed the substantive to which POREUQENTES is related, but I would argue that POREUQENTES, although taking its gender and number from MAQHTAI, construes adverbially with the imperative MAQHTEUSATE. Taking the road is an essential concomitant of making disciples.> >Secondly, the participals are related to the main verb, MAQHTEUSATE in a>supporting role, they are making disciples (while)…baptizing…teaching.>Again, using Thomas’s terminology, they are causal.CWC: Here I think I’d agree with the analysis: BAPTIZEIN and DIDASKEIN are indicated as essential concomitant aspects of MAQHTEUSAI — but it seems to me misguided to call the participles BAPTIZONTES and DIDASKONTES “causal.” Ordinarily when we refer to a participle as “causal” we mean that it explains or gives a reason for the action of the main verb: e.g., AGAPWNTES TREFOMEN TA PAIDIA (“we feed the children because we love them”).> >So I would think the answer lies in which direction one is viewing the>participals-as adjectives toward the subject (descriptive) or as verbs>toward the object (causal). In this case the subjects are MAQHTAI and the>objects are MAQHTAI-in-the-making.>>John Sanders>Suzhou, China

[] Phemister Greek NT Audio[] How about a audio Bible?

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 Barry nebarry at verizon.net
Fri Dec 4 06:55:08 EST 2009

[] Matthew 28: 19,20 [] Phemister Greek NT Audio ————————————————–From: “John Sanders” <john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:38 AMTo: <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: ” ” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Subject: Re: [] Matthew 28: 19,20> I view this way,> > First, the participals are are related to a substantive in an adjectival> relation. The substantive here is the participal POREUQENTES, which goes> back to verse 16, the MAQHTAI, specifically the eleven. Using Thomas’s> terminology, it is descriptive-the ones sent…be baptizing…be teaching.> > Secondly, the participals are related to the main verb, MAQHTEUSATE in a> supporting role, they are making disciples (while)…baptizing…teaching.> Again, using Thomas’s terminology, they are causal.> > So I would think the answer lies in which direction one is viewing the> participals-as adjectives toward the subject (descriptive) or as verbs> toward the object (causal). In this case the subjects are MAQHTAI and the> objects are MAQHTAI-in-the-making.The participles are clearly predicate participles, which means it is primarily the action of the verbs modifying the main verb, μαθητεύσατε, MAQHTEUSATE. I would say that the the participles explain the action of the main verb, and hence are epegetical or perhaps instrumental. They really answer the question of “how” the apostles are to make disciples. If we think that “baptizing” and “teaching” is what produces disciples, then you could make a case for causal participles.Now, normally I don’t weigh in on these discussion, but I wanted to make a point. This discussion illustrates the sometimes arbitrary nature of our grammatical categories, much like Wallace and his multiplicity of genitives. I am not at all sure that an ancient reader or hearer, who used the language simply to communicate, would “hear” these differences, or even wonder about them. He would understand what he was being instructed to do, however. And that, I would suggest, is the main deal.N.E. Barry HofstetterFecisti nos ad te et inquietum est cor nostrum, donec requiescat in te… — Augustine, Confessions 1:1http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry/http://my.opera.com/BarryHofstetter/blog/

[] Matthew 28: 19,20[] Phemister Greek NT Audio

[bible passage=”Matthew 28:19″]

Matthew 28:19 PANTA TA EQNH (acc.) make disciples of all the nations (DBY) OR disciple all the nations (YLT) ?

Dony K. Donev

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12 thoughts on “Matthew 28:19

  1. Stephen Carlson says:

    The OED says that that “disciple” used to be a verb in English, thought it is now in its various senses either obsolete, rare, or archaic. Interestingly, three of its four examples of sense 2, “To make a disciple of; to convert to the doctrine of another. Now rare or arch.,” are allusions to Matt 28:19.

    So it looks like that no matter how tempting “disciple” as a verb may be, it is not really an option for a modern English translation.

    Stephen Carlson — Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in Religion Duke University — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

  2. cwconrad2 says:

    This is not a question about Greek but about English, specifically whether “disciple” may be used as a verb in English. So far as I can tell, it’s ordinarily used only as a noun.

    Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)

  3. Leonard Jayawardena says:

    href=”mailto:dony@cupandcross.com”>dony@cupandcross.com href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org

    LJ:

    Mt. 28:19: POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH ….

    The YLT is correct in literally rendering the above as “disciple all the nations,” because MAQHTEUSATE comes from the verb MAQHTEUW, literally “to disciple” (if the verb is used with a transitive, active meaning, as here), which is more idiomatically rendered in the other translation you cited as “make disciples of.”

    A Greek form literally corresponding to the English “make disciples of all the nations” would be POIHSATE MAQHTAS EK TWN EQNWN PANTWN.

    Leonard Jayawardena

  4. cwconrad2 says:

    The only problem being that “disciple” is not a verb in English. This is the sort of translation made by translators who want to create the target language anew in the image of the source language.

    Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)

  5. George F Somsel says:

    That’s pretty much what I was thinking.  In the Bibletranslation group (I think that was the name of it) translations were sometimes referred to as “biblish.”  It reminds me of the jokes that Red Foxworthy told / tells.

    If you speak of “brethren” (you might get by with “brothers”), you might be speaking biblish. If you use “disciple” as a verb, you might be speaking biblish.  george gfsomsel

  6. "Eric Inman" says:

    If enough people start using disciple as a verb then it will “officially” be recognized as English. I don’t know if we’re close to that point or not. At any rate I think there’s enough usage to consider it a form a some unofficial version of English.

    Therefore I would prefer a different response to Leonard’s, as follows:

    The usage of disciple as a verb seems to be based on the usage of MAQHTEUW in Matthew 28:19. Therefore of course it’s a better translation because it’s meaning is actually identical by definition.

    Eric Inman

  7. "Terry Cook" says:

    One of our junior pastors asked if I would come to church on Thursday and meet with two men he was “discipling.” Is it not possible to disciple (in the sense of teaching etc.) if the usage is not in the OED? I know the word “ain’t” wasn’t in any of the dictionaries (dad would say “ain’t ain’t a word!) when I was kid but everybody used the word! I thought the big thing around this group was reading for understanding? If understanding a phrase properly and in its context means understanding it in a non-dictionary sense…….. what’s wrong with that? Terry Cook
    = = = =
    Would it be possible to use “mentor all the Gentiles,…teaching them to observe…” as a translation of the passage?

    Delwyn X. Campbell

    =====

    I’m sorry if I’ve been the cause of confusion regarding this passage with my objection to use of the English “disciple” as a verb to convey the sense of the Greek imperative μαθητεύσατε [MAQHTEUSATE]. I do think that it’s probably only those who use “disciple” in English to represent this particular verb in this particular GNT text who are likely to use “disciple” in English as a verb. But whether or not that may be the case, our focus in this discussion group is really not upon how to convey the words of a Greek text into English but first and foremost on how best to understand the Greek words and text in themselves.
    The verb μαθητεύω [MAQHTEUW] is a transitive verb and means to turn its accusative object into a μαθητής [MAQHTHS]. I think that this noun — MAQHTHS — is a very distinct item of Matthew’s vocabulary and is closely associated with the image of Jesus as a rabbi and new Moses laying down a new Torah for those who sit at the rabbi’s feet and take to heart his instruction. I wonder how often these particular associations of Matthew’s usage of the word are in mind when one uses either “make disciples of” or “disciple” or “mentor” are used. Insofar as the question is fundamentally how MAQHTEUSATE ought best to be rendered in English, the question I would ask is, “How can one best convey the wealth of implication in Matthew’s usage of the noun MAQHTHS?” Ultimately the question is not, I think, “How is this verb best conveyed in English?” but “What all should we understand this verb to mean in Matthew’s Greek usage?”

    Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)
    = = = =
    Blue Meeksbay
    I am sorry, I am under the weather and so will not be able to follow through with this thread, but I just wanted to briefly add my two cents. MATTHEW 28:19 POREUQENTES OUN MAQHTEUSATE PANTA TA EQNH, BAPTIZONTES AUTOUS EIS TO ONOMA TOU PATROS KAI TOU hUIOU KAI TOU hAGIOU PNEUMATOS,
    Friberg’s Lexicon says: μαθητεύω1aor. ἐμαθήτευσα; 1aor. pass. ἐμαθητεύθην; (1) intransitively, active be or become a disciple of someone (MT 27.57); passive become a disciple, be a follower (MT 27.57); be instructed, be trained (MT 13.52); (2) transitively make a disciple of someone, instruct, cause someone to become a follower (MT 28.19)
    I always understood this verb in the sense of Stephen Carlson’s example – “Tomake a disciple of; to convert to the doctrine of another, or Friberg’s definition of causing “someone to become a follower.”
    And now Carl Conrad’s latest post – (Thank you Dr. Conrad for taking us back to the essence of the matter). I really like your statement: *The verb μαθητεύω [MAQHTEUW] is a transitive verb and means to turn its accusative object into a μαθητής [MAQHTHS].* I think Dr. Conrad got to the essence of the meaning by reminding us of Matthew’s context of Jesus as the new Rabbi in the New Covenant as Moses was the Rabbi of the Old Covenant – cf. John 9:28, *disciples of Moses.*
    It also seems making a disciple, or, in other words, making a convert to Jesus, fits in better with the context and especially the aorist tense of this verb. I think Matthew is talking about a punctiliar action, which fits in nicely with the idea of making a convert. If the verb was in the *present* tense, then it might be better understood to carry the connotation of *discipling* someone as was used in the example of the junior pastor in Terry Cook’s example. It seems Jesus is just saying the same thing he said in the other gospel, albeit in a different way: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” Mk. 16:15 Just as a disclaimer. I know this idea of the aorist is many times used too simplistically, as Wallace says below regarding the *Abused Aorist:* “There are two errors to avoid in treating the aorist: saying too little and saying too much. First, some have said too little by assuming that nothing more than the unaffected meaning can ever be seen when the aorist is used. This view fails to recognize that the aorist tense (like other tenses) does not exist in a vacuum. Categories of usage are legitimate because the tenses combine with other linguistic features to form var­ious fields of meaning. Second, many NT students see a particular category of usage (Aktionsart) as under­lying the entire tense usage (aspect). This is the error of saying too much. Statements such as “the aorist means once-for-all action” are of this sort. It is true that the aorist may, under certain circumstances, describe an event that is, in reality, momentary. But we run into danger when we say that this is the aorist’s unaffected meaning, for then we force it on the text in an artificial way. We then tend to ignore such aorists that disprove our view (and they can be found in every chapter of the NT) and pro­claim loudly the “once-for-all” aorists when they suit us. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basicsby Daniel B. WallacePrinted Edition:Zondervan Publishing HouseGrand Rapids, Michigan 49530Copyright © 1996 by Daniel B. Wallace (pg. 557) But in this case, I view this verse as fitting in nicely with Wallace’s statement, *It is true that the aorist may, under certain circumstances, describe an event that is, in reality, momentary.*
    In addition, the punctiliar thought of becoming a disciple or convert fits in better with the same verb used in Matt. 27:54 and also the participles in Matt. 13:52 and Acts 14:21.
    For example, if the participle in Acts 14:21 was being used in the sense of *discipling* or *mentoring* someone, then it seems it would have been better used in a place where Paul stayed for a year or two like Corinth or Ephesus, but it is used here of a place where he and Barnabas stayed for a very short time, therefore, it seems Luke is also using it in the sense of making a convert. In this case it seems the participle MAQHTEUSANTES is completing the thought of the participle EUAGGELISAMENOI. In other words, Luke is saying they preached the gospel and people responded and believed, thereby becoming a disciple of the new Rabbi, Jesus. So anyway, there is my two cents. Like two cents, it may not be worth much. Blue Harris

    = = = =

    Iver Larsen”
    —– Original Message —– Cc: Sent: 23. december 2010 01:22
    The two present participles explain more of what is involved in MAQHTEUSATE. The first one is BAPTIZONTES. It is followed by διδάσκοντες DIDASKONTES in v. 20. If we add εὐαγγελίζω EUAGGELIZW, I would say we have three ordered components to the meaning of μαθητεύω MAQHTEUW: Evangelize, baptize, teach. How this is done is a different matter.

    However, what has not been mentioned and which is of interest to me is the object for the verb. Grammatically it is all the ethnic groups – PANTA TA EQNH. But can a whole ethnic group be “discipled” or evangelized or baptized or taught? Well, the next clause refers to them as AUTOUS rather than AUTA, so it does not refer back to the nations as a whole, but to individuals – people – within those nations. One of the first kings of Denmark, Harold Bluetooth, bragged in an inscription from 958 on the famous Jelling stone that it was him who “made the Danes Christians”. In what sense he thought he had done that is not clear to me.

    Iver Larsen

  8. david says:

    Thw N.W.T. render v.19 as “make disciples” and as v.s 20 read “teaching them” thus the one teaching would make a disciple according to context.

    So it seems that “make disciples” is the better of the two; as no one is born a disciple of Jesus it is somthing one becomes via a teacher.

  9. Troy Day Troy Day says:

    Joseph Kidwell How does one gather such precise distinction from Mt 28 alone? There’s nothing in the baptizo language of v 19 that calls for split in the Trinity. On the contrary, even if earlier MSS are cited we still have the triple perichoresis present not only in the baptism but in the whole Great Commission even when continued through the pneuamtical outpouring on the Early Church in Acts…

  10. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter said that those who repent are to be baptized in “…in the name of Jesus” (Acts 2:28). it’s significant that no one jumped up and corrected him. In fact, every water baptism in the Acts of the Apostles was done in Jesus name. It’s clear to me that the early church implemented the command of Christ in Matt. 28:19 by baptizing in Jesus name. There is no “split in the Trinity”. Jesus said that the “Father is in Me and I am in My Father”. Jesus said that ..”I have come in my Father’s name.” There is “…none other name under heaven given whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) When we baptize in Jesus name we are simply following the pattern established in Acts. However, I will repeat, that although I believe that the NT pattern is to baptize in Jesus name, that does not necessarily mean that those who are baptized with the wording of Matt. 28:19 are somehow ‘illegitimate’.

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