Revelation 13:15

Revelation 13.15-17 Christian Naaktgeboren naak at rle.nupes.cefetpr.br
Mon Jul 12 17:27:27 EDT 1999

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU Revelation 13.15-17 is: 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAILALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN THEIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUSPLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INADWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPONAUTWN 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TOCARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast? At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer. Thanks in advance. Christian Naaktgeboren.–____________________________________________________________Christian Naaktgeborennaak at rle.nupes.cefetpr.brchisnaak at yahoo.comhttp://rle.nupes.cefetpr.br/~naak0055 41 376-9185 ext. 4778″Sabemos que o Filho de Deus já veio e nos deu entendimentopara conhecermos o Verdadeiro, e estamos no Verdadeiro, emseu Filho Jesus Cristo: este é o Verdadeiro Deus e VidaEterna” 1 João 5.20

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7

Revelation 13.15-17 Christian Naaktgeboren naak at rle.nupes.cefetpr.br
Mon Jul 12 17:27:27 EDT 1999

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU Revelation 13.15-17 is: 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAILALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN THEIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUSPLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INADWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPONAUTWN 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TOCARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast? At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer. Thanks in advance. Christian Naaktgeboren.–____________________________________________________________Christian Naaktgeborennaak at rle.nupes.cefetpr.brchisnaak at yahoo.comhttp://rle.nupes.cefetpr.br/~naak0055 41 376-9185 ext. 4778″Sabemos que o Filho de Deus já veio e nos deu entendimentopara conhecermos o Verdadeiro, e estamos no Verdadeiro, emseu Filho Jesus Cristo: este é o Verdadeiro Deus e VidaEterna” 1 João 5.20

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7

Revelation 13.15-17 clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jul 13 00:32:20 EDT 1999

Logos/Dao Romans 15.18-19 > CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU> > Revelation 13.15-17 is:> > 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN> 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUS> PLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INA> DWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPON> AUTWN> 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TO> CARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU> > Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast?> At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer.> > Thanks in advance.> Christian Naaktgeboren.Christian,This is not such a simple question. I will only answer part of it. Whois the agent of POIHSHi in 13:15?> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSINThe syntax lends itself best to seeing H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU (image of thebeast) as the agent of both LALHSHi and POIHSHi. So one could say it isthe image who both speaks and performs . . . . However, agency in thiscontext is a complex notion. It is ALLO QHRION (Rev 13:11) (anotherbeast) who is animating the image and the power to animate the image isgiven to ALLO QHRION from an another source. So you see the question ofwho is doing this is really quite complex. In terms of grammar the imageis the agent of both verbs but there are more things to consider herethan grammar.Now for the commentators. H.B. Swete says that ALLO QHRION is performingthese acts using the image as an agent. G. Beale says that ALLO QHRIONis doing these things but he does not explain how he makes this workwith the syntax. D. Aune notes that the syntax makes the image thesubject of POIHSHi but then goes on to suggest that ALLO QHRION is the”logical subject.” G.B. Caird and R. H. Charles don’t address thequestion.Conclusion:I think that ALLO QHRION (another beast) is performing the action but heis using some sort of sorcery to make the image do the talking, and itis through this talking that the results of POIHSHi are realized .–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

Logos/DaoRomans 15.18-19

Revelation 13.15-17 clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jul 13 00:32:20 EDT 1999

Logos/Dao Romans 15.18-19 > CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU> > Revelation 13.15-17 is:> > 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN> 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUS> PLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INA> DWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPON> AUTWN> 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TO> CARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU> > Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast?> At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer.> > Thanks in advance.> Christian Naaktgeboren.Christian,This is not such a simple question. I will only answer part of it. Whois the agent of POIHSHi in 13:15?> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSINThe syntax lends itself best to seeing H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU (image of thebeast) as the agent of both LALHSHi and POIHSHi. So one could say it isthe image who both speaks and performs . . . . However, agency in thiscontext is a complex notion. It is ALLO QHRION (Rev 13:11) (anotherbeast) who is animating the image and the power to animate the image isgiven to ALLO QHRION from an another source. So you see the question ofwho is doing this is really quite complex. In terms of grammar the imageis the agent of both verbs but there are more things to consider herethan grammar.Now for the commentators. H.B. Swete says that ALLO QHRION is performingthese acts using the image as an agent. G. Beale says that ALLO QHRIONis doing these things but he does not explain how he makes this workwith the syntax. D. Aune notes that the syntax makes the image thesubject of POIHSHi but then goes on to suggest that ALLO QHRION is the”logical subject.” G.B. Caird and R. H. Charles don’t address thequestion.Conclusion:I think that ALLO QHRION (another beast) is performing the action but heis using some sort of sorcery to make the image do the talking, and itis through this talking that the results of POIHSHi are realized .–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

Logos/DaoRomans 15.18-19

Revelation 13.15-17 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jul 13 07:48:18 EDT 1999

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith Hesitant as I am at the outset to say anything meaningful about how thisdocument should be understood, I do have an idea that, like a fool rushingin, I venture to share; it may be either obvious or (more likely) inane.I think that the second beast (ALLO QHRION, Rev 13:11) is probably intendedto represent the power of the Roman empire, and that the “image of thebeast” is the effigy of the emperor before which subjects are to bow inworship as well as the effigy of the emperor on coins of the realm. My owntentative view of the giving of the spirit to the image of the beast mimicsthe action of Genesis 2:7 in the giving of the spirit to the human beingmade in the image of God. Thus the universal stamping of the CARAGMA onforehead or on right hand becomes a symbol of measureless idolatry in thehuman self-worship taking the form of emperor-worship.On the other hand I have to say too that (as I also recall our discussionof not too long ago on the ‘questionable’ syntax of the author ofRevelation) I am inclined more and more to think that the vagueness of thesyntax of this text and of the book as a whole is a kind of ‘virtue’. I’vealways felt that the imagery of the book functions somewhat like theshifting tesserae in a kaleidoscope that is turning: it’s as if you arelooking at the same picture of events of the end-time all the time, butwith a perspective that is constantly shifting either slightly or a lot.Another way to say this, perhaps, is that we are being given a descriptionof a dream image and it is characteristic of dream images that we are neverquite sure exactly how we got from one point in the dream to another point.It seems to me that the Greek syntax of this book does a lot to foster sucha conception of the fade-in and fade-out of one image into another.At 9:32 PM -0700 7/12/99, clayton stirling bartholomew wrote:>> CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU>> >> Revelation 13.15-17 is:>> >> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI>> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH>> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN>> 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUS>> PLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INA>> DWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPON>> AUTWN>> 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TO>> CARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU>> >> Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast?>> At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer.>> >> Thanks in advance.>> Christian Naaktgeboren.> > >Christian,> >This is not such a simple question. I will only answer part of it. Who>is the agent of POIHSHi in 13:15?> >> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI>> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH>> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN> >The syntax lends itself best to seeing H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU (image of the>beast) as the agent of both LALHSHi and POIHSHi. So one could say it is>the image who both speaks and performs . . . . However, agency in this>context is a complex notion. It is ALLO QHRION (Rev 13:11) (another>beast) who is animating the image and the power to animate the image is>given to ALLO QHRION from an another source. So you see the question of>who is doing this is really quite complex. In terms of grammar the image>is the agent of both verbs but there are more things to consider here>than grammar.> >Now for the commentators. H.B. Swete says that ALLO QHRION is performing>these acts using the image as an agent. G. Beale says that ALLO QHRION>is doing these things but he does not explain how he makes this work>with the syntax. D. Aune notes that the syntax makes the image the>subject of POIHSHi but then goes on to suggest that ALLO QHRION is the>“logical subject.” G.B. Caird and R. H. Charles don’t address the>question.> >Conclusion:> >I think that ALLO QHRION (another beast) is performing the action but he>is using some sort of sorcery to make the image do the talking, and it>is through this talking that the results of POIHSHi are realized .Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith

Revelation 13.15-17 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jul 13 07:48:18 EDT 1999

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith Hesitant as I am at the outset to say anything meaningful about how thisdocument should be understood, I do have an idea that, like a fool rushingin, I venture to share; it may be either obvious or (more likely) inane.I think that the second beast (ALLO QHRION, Rev 13:11) is probably intendedto represent the power of the Roman empire, and that the “image of thebeast” is the effigy of the emperor before which subjects are to bow inworship as well as the effigy of the emperor on coins of the realm. My owntentative view of the giving of the spirit to the image of the beast mimicsthe action of Genesis 2:7 in the giving of the spirit to the human beingmade in the image of God. Thus the universal stamping of the CARAGMA onforehead or on right hand becomes a symbol of measureless idolatry in thehuman self-worship taking the form of emperor-worship.On the other hand I have to say too that (as I also recall our discussionof not too long ago on the ‘questionable’ syntax of the author ofRevelation) I am inclined more and more to think that the vagueness of thesyntax of this text and of the book as a whole is a kind of ‘virtue’. I’vealways felt that the imagery of the book functions somewhat like theshifting tesserae in a kaleidoscope that is turning: it’s as if you arelooking at the same picture of events of the end-time all the time, butwith a perspective that is constantly shifting either slightly or a lot.Another way to say this, perhaps, is that we are being given a descriptionof a dream image and it is characteristic of dream images that we are neverquite sure exactly how we got from one point in the dream to another point.It seems to me that the Greek syntax of this book does a lot to foster sucha conception of the fade-in and fade-out of one image into another.At 9:32 PM -0700 7/12/99, clayton stirling bartholomew wrote:>> CARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU>> >> Revelation 13.15-17 is:>> >> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI>> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH>> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN>> 13.16 KAI POIEI PANTAS TOUS MIKROUS KAI TOUS MEGALOUS KAI TOUS>> PLOUSIOUS KAI TOUS PTWCOUS KAI TOUS ELEUQEROUS KAI TOUS DOULOUS INA>> DWSIN AUTOIS CARAGMA EPI THS CEIROS AUTWN THS DEXIAS H EPI TO METWPON>> AUTWN>> 13.17 KAI INA MH TIS DUNHTAI AGORASAI H PWLHSAI EI MH O ECWN TO>> CARAGMA TO ONOMA TOU QHRIOU H TON ARIQMON TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU>> >> Who does these things? The beast or the image of the beast?>> At least 20 persons will be blessed with the answer.>> >> Thanks in advance.>> Christian Naaktgeboren.> > >Christian,> >This is not such a simple question. I will only answer part of it. Who>is the agent of POIHSHi in 13:15?> >> 13.15 KAI EDOQH AUTW DOUNAI PNEUMA TH EIKONI TOU QHRIOU INA KAI>> LALHSH H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU KAI POIHSH [INA] OSOI EAN MH PROSKUNHSWSIN TH>> EIKONI TOU QHRIOU APOKTANQWSIN> >The syntax lends itself best to seeing H EIKWN TOU QHRIOU (image of the>beast) as the agent of both LALHSHi and POIHSHi. So one could say it is>the image who both speaks and performs . . . . However, agency in this>context is a complex notion. It is ALLO QHRION (Rev 13:11) (another>beast) who is animating the image and the power to animate the image is>given to ALLO QHRION from an another source. So you see the question of>who is doing this is really quite complex. In terms of grammar the image>is the agent of both verbs but there are more things to consider here>than grammar.> >Now for the commentators. H.B. Swete says that ALLO QHRION is performing>these acts using the image as an agent. G. Beale says that ALLO QHRION>is doing these things but he does not explain how he makes this work>with the syntax. D. Aune notes that the syntax makes the image the>subject of POIHSHi but then goes on to suggest that ALLO QHRION is the>“logical subject.” G.B. Caird and R. H. Charles don’t address the>question.> >Conclusion:> >I think that ALLO QHRION (another beast) is performing the action but he>is using some sort of sorcery to make the image do the talking, and it>is through this talking that the results of POIHSHi are realized .Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith