Condition in Acts 17:27 Eric Zeller ewz at ewz.com
Wed Sep 4 19:42:00 EDT 2002
N-A 21 vs. N-A 26/27 Condition in Acts 17:27 [Message heavily edited to remove MIME/HTML formatting; please use plain-textASCII only for messages to be distributed to . –cwc]Can anyone offer insight on what type of condition may be in view inActs 17:27? It seems to be an incomplete condition where the protasisincludes the optative mood, and the apodosis seems to be absent. Thanksfor any assistance.-Eric Zeller
N-A 21 vs. N-A 26/27Condition in Acts 17:27
Condition in Acts 17:27 Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Wed Sep 4 22:32:38 EDT 2002
Condition in Acts 17:27 N-A 21 vs. N-A 26/27 In a message dated 9/4/2002 9:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ewz at ewz.com writes:Can anyone offer insight on what type of condition may be in view inActs 17:27? It seems to be an incomplete condition where the protasisincludes the optative mood, and the apodosis seems to be absent. Thanksfor any assistance.___________________________________It is advisable to transliterate the text before you begin. Although many of us don’t use the transliteration to discuss the text, people have been known to cite the wrong verse or chapter numbers. If we have the transliteration, we can literally see whether we’re on the same page.ZHTEIN TON QEON, EI ARA GE YHLAFHSEIAN AUTON KAI hEUOIEN, KAI GE OU MAKRAN APO hENOS hEKASTOU hHMWN hUPARXONTA.Indeed you are correct. This is an incomplete condition. EI + Optative introduces a “Fourth Class Condition” or “Future Less Probable (or Less Probable Future) Condition. The apodosis would be AN + Optative. Wallace in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics notes that there is no complete fourth class condition in the NT (p. 484). It indicates a possible or potential action.gfsomsel
Condition in Acts 17:27N-A 21 vs. N-A 26/27
Condition in Acts 17:27 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 5 07:22:07 EDT 2002
Mk 1:3 & par. EN THi ERHMWi MT/LXX Midrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of Interpretation At 4:42 PM -0700 9/4/02, Eric Zeller wrote:>[Message heavily edited to remove MIME/HTML formatting; please use plain-text>ASCII only for messages to be distributed to . –cwc]> >Can anyone offer insight on what type of condition may be in view in>Acts 17:27? It seems to be an incomplete condition where the protasis>includes the optative mood, and the apodosis seems to be absent. Thanks>for any assistance.Text: Acts 17:26-27 EPOIHSEN TE EX hENOS PAN EQNOS ANQRWPWN KATOIKEIN EPIPANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS, hORISAS PROSTETAGMENOUS KARIOUS KAI TAS hOROQESIASTHS KATOIKIAS AUTWN (27) ZHTEIN TON QEON, EI ARA GE YHLAFHSEIAN AUTON KAIhEUROIEN, KAI GE OU MAKRAN APO hENOS hEKASTOU hHMWN hUPARCONTA.I think Smyth addresses this instance pretty well in the section citedbelow; I think the secondary sequence is sufficient to account for theoptative here (this is NOT really the same as a future less vividcondition):§2354. ei’, ea_n, on the chance that.–ei or ean may set forth the motivefor the action or feeling expressed by the apodosis, and with the force ofon the chance that, in case that, in the hope that, if haply.After primary tenses in the apodosis, we have ei with the indicative orea_n (pôs) with the subjunctive; after secondary tenses, ei with theoptative or, occasionally, ea_n (pôs) with the subjunctive. Homer hassometimes the optative after primary tenses. The reference is to the futureas in final clauses.The protasis here depends, not on the apodosis proper, but on the idea ofpurpose or desire suggested by the thought. The accomplishment of thepurpose may be desired or not desired, and by the subject either of theapodosis or of the protasis.nun aut’ encheiêi peirêsomai, ai ke tuchômi but now I will make trial withmy spear on the chance (in the hope) that I may hit thee E279, akouson kaiemou, ea_n soi eti tauta dokêi listen to me too on the chance (in the hope)that you may still have the same opinion P. R. 358b, poreuomenoi es tênAsia_n hôs basilea_, ei pôs peiseian auton going into Asia to the king inthe hope that somehow they might persuade him T. 2.67 , pros tên polin, eiepiboêthoien, echôroun they advanced toward the city on the chance thatthey (the citizens) should make a sally 6. 100.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Mk 1:3 & par. EN THi ERHMWi MT/LXXMidrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of Interpretation
Condition in Acts 17:27 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Thu Sep 5 11:10:03 EDT 2002
Midrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of Interpretation Midrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of Interpretation At 00:42 05/09/02, Eric Zeller wrote:>Can anyone offer insight on what type of condition may be in view in>Acts 17:27? It seems to be an incomplete condition where the protasis>includes the optative mood, and the apodosis seems to be absent. Thanks>for any assistance.Zerwick (Biblical Greek Illustrated by example ) in his section 402c, on EI as an interrogative particle in an indirect question, deals with three usages(alpha) << in true questions, such as Lk. 23:6 <<and(beta) in 403 as << in virtual questions expressing an uncertain expectation associated with an effort to attain something >> giving as examples Phil. 3:12 or Ro. 1:10, then adding << In the N.T the EI is followed by the subjunctive or the future ( only once a classical optative Ac. 17:27, and never, as is usual in classical Greek, EAN with the subjunctive. >>Maurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie
Midrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of InterpretationMidrash Sources for the Study of Rabbinic Principles of Interpretation
RV: () Re:Condition in Acts 17:27 Braulio Barillas parakal at quetzal.net
Thu Sep 19 08:24:25 EDT 2002
adverbial use of prepositional phrase in Luke 23:43? Dative in Gal 5:25 In a message dated 9/4/2002 9:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ewz at ewz.comwrites:Can anyone offer insight on what type of condition may be in view inActs 17:27? It seems to be an incomplete condition where the protasisincludes the optative mood, and the apodosis seems to be absent. Thanksfor any assistance.gfsomsel, wrote: 04 Sep, 2002 08:33 p.m.Indeed you are correct. This is an incomplete condition. EI + Optativeintroduces a “Fourth Class Condition” or “Future Less Probable (or LessProbable Future) Condition. The apodosis would be AN + Optative. WallaceinGreek Grammar Beyond the Basics notes that there is no complete fourth classcondition in the NT (p. 484). It indicates a possible or potential action.gfsomselC. Conrad wrote: 05 Sep. 2002 05:22 a.m.Text: Acts 17:26-27 EPOISEN TE EX hENOS PAN EQNOS ANQRWPWN KATOIKEIN EPIPANTOS PROWPOU THS GHS,hORISAS PROSTETAGMENOUS KARIOUS KAI TAS hOROQESIASTHS KATOIKIAS AUTWN (27)ZHTEIN TON QEON, EI ARA GE YHLAFHSEIAN AUTON KAIhEUROIEN, KAI GE OU MAKRAN APO hENOS hEKASTOU hHMWN hUPARCONTA.The protasis here depends, not on the apodosis proper, but on the idea ofpurpose or desire suggested by the thought. The accomplishment of thepurpose may be desired, and by the subject either of the apodosis or of theprotasis.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Estimados amigos Deseo hacer un pequeno aporte a lo ya mencionado y que, en general, estoy deacuerdo . El EI no deberia tomarse como una conjuncion condicional, sinocomo una conjuncion adversativa. Al escribir esto, estoy leyendo la versionde San Jeronimo. vulgate ed 1868. El translitera el EI ARA griego por el SIFORTE latin que no tiene el mismo significado. En latin no existe el modooptativo, alli encontramos otro cambio,el verbo ATTRECTENT esta ensubjuntivo y no en optativo como esta en griego. No resulta entonces masfacil dejar de pensar que es una oracion condicional y pensar que esadversativa? Ademas notemos que este versiculo 27 pertenece a un periodo queva del verso 22 al 31 Este es un discurso retorico en que el hablante(Pablo) persuade con juicio apodictico. Asi que el EI con el optativofunciona mas como una clausula final. Tratar entonces de ajustarlo a uno delos tipos de oracion condicional de las gramaticas griegas es dificil, puesla oracion carece de la preposicion AN y su correspondiente verbo enoptativo en la apodosis por lo que no debe situarse en la categoria FutureLess VividConditional Sentence o en alguna similar como bien senalaPolicap66 at aol.com en su mail, o el Dr. Conrad. Finalmente quisiera agregarque la forma de explicar los conceptos gramaticales son subjetivos y debepensarse que noexiste el concepto verdadero o falso.atte.Braulio Barillasparakal at quetzal.netGuatemala, C.A.
adverbial use of prepositional phrase in Luke 23:43?Dative in Gal 5:25
RV: () Re:Condition in Acts 17:27 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 19 12:03:55 EDT 2002
Fwd: Re: Dative in Gal 5:25 adverbial use of prepositional phrase in Luke 23:43? Forwarded for George Somsel:>From: Polycarp66 at aol.com> >In a message dated 9/19/2002 8:22:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,>parakal at quetzal.net writes:> >>Estimados amigos >> >>Deseo hacer un pequeno aporte a lo ya mencionado y que, en general, estoy de>>acuerdo . El EI no deberia tomarse como una conjuncion condicional, sino>>como una conjuncion adversativa. Al escribir esto, estoy leyendo la version>>de San Jeronimo. vulgate ed 1868. El translitera el EI ARA griego por el SI>>FORTE latin que no tiene el mismo significado. En latin no existe el modo>>optativo, alli encontramos otro cambio,el verbo ATTRECTENT esta en>>subjuntivo y no en optativo como esta en griego. No resulta entonces mas>>facil dejar de pensar que es una oracion condicional y pensar que es>>adversativa? Ademas notemos que este versiculo 27 pertenece a un periodo que>>va del verso 22 al 31 Este es un discurso retorico en que el hablante>>(Pablo) persuade con juicio apodictico. Asi que el EI con el optativo>>funciona mas como una clausula final. Tratar entonces de ajustarlo a uno de>>los tipos de oracion condicional de las gramaticas griegas es dificil, pues>>la oracion carece de la preposicion AN y su correspondiente verbo en>>optativo en la apodosis por lo que no debe situarse en la categoria Future>>Less Vivid>>Conditional Sentence o en alguna similar como bien senala>>Policap66 at aol.com en su mail, o el Dr. Conrad. Finalmente quisiera agregar>>que la forma de explicar los conceptos gramaticales son subjetivos y debe>>pensarse que no>>existe el concepto verdadero o falso.>>atte.>>Braulio Barillas>>parakal at quetzal.net>>Guatemala, C.A.>> > >Dear friends,> >I wish to make a small contribution (supplement?) to what has been stated>with which I generally agree. The EI is not to be understood as a>conditional conjunction, but as an adversative conjunction. As I am>writing this I am reading the Vulgate edition of 1868 by St. Jerome. He>translates the Greek EI ARA with the Latin SI FORTE which does not have>the same significance. In Latin there is no optative mood so we find>another change the verb ATTRECTENT is in the subjunctive rather than the>optative as in Greek. Is it not easier then to abandon the thought that>it is a conditional clause and think of it rather as an adversative? We>also note that verse 27 belongs to a paragraph which extends from verse 22>to 31. It is a rhetorical discourse in which the speaker (Paul) persuades>by an apodictic judgment. Similarly the EI with the optative functions>more as a final clause. Therefore to attempt to accomodate it to the>category of a conditional clause of Greek grammar is difficult since the>clause lacks the preposition AN and the corresponding verb in the optative>and the apodosis on account of which one cannot classify it under the>category of a Future Less Vivid conditional sentence or something similar>as Policap66 at aol.com [sic!] correctly points out in his post or Dr.>Conrad. Finally, I wish to add that the categories to explain the>grammatical concepts are subjective and one should understand that the>concept ‘true or false’ does not exist. **> >** The last sentence has me somewhat puzzled. This may not properly>express his meaning.> >gfsomsel
Fwd: Re: Dative in Gal 5:25adverbial use of prepositional phrase in Luke 23:43?