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Acts 2:22

In Greek, it is not a joke. It's just coincidental that the way serious things are structured in Greek is very close to the way this guilt laying speech is structured. If you are looking for emphasis in the Greek, look for the giggles or moments of heighened awareness in the joke that I've written out in parallel. To translate this text-type into a suitable form of subject matter, we would have to make some changes, according to the norms of the target language.
I'm sorry, that should have read something like:
    It's just coincidental that the way serious things are structured in Greek is very close to the way that a certain type of joke is structured in English. To express the force of this Greek guilt laying speech in English, we would have to use some of the norms of how an English guilt-laying speech is structured.
By way of apology for that anacoluthon, I had a throbbing headache and was supposed to be napping when I wrote that, and a colleague brought his friend into the room where I was supposed to be resting, while I was in mid-sentence, so the train of thought was a few carriages further on, by the time I got back to typing. My brain was only functioning at diminished capacity, and when I looked over it, it looked like it said something coherent. But, not to worry, I did get to power nap for just a few moments. In terms of the parallel structure, at each place where the joke might be intense in English, there is a reference to "you" in the Greek. Let me put the pseudo-joke together:
    A couple of toffs walk into a pub - doctors. They see Jack, a bloke supported on this medical walking frame coming right over to them with all sorts of limping, swaying and tapping which his leg made, and he walked right up to them. Then all at once, they recognised who it was the guy to whose knee, by some quirk of inventory system mismanagement, budgetary cutbacks or paperwork bungling, they had affixed a fake arm.
To change that from this type of third person joke format into a second person accusation directed at the doctors. I suppose that there are a number of ways it could be done, but here is a direct sort of style, using formal language and very little emotion:
    You doctors. It is you that left this man Jack needing to be supported on a medical frame. It is because of you that he walks with all sorts of limping, swaying and tapping. Despite any excuses about quirks of inventory system mismanagement, budgetary cutbacks or paperwork bungling, it is you yourselves that carry full and cognizant responibility for affixing a prosthetic arm to this man's knee.
There is more than just a change in person there. We need to use the language of accusation. While Greek word order starts with the most general or all-inclusive things first and works towards "punch lines", English accusations makes the strong statements first. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — February 9th, 2017, 12:57 am
 
Rhoover60 wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:
Rhoover60 wrote:It looks to me like the Ἰησοῦν τὸν Ναζωραῖον in vs. 22 is the direct object of ἀνείλατε at the end of vs. 23.
If pressed, I would say that the direct object of ἀνείλατε is τοῦτον, but I would also be the first to admit that I don't see much difference between the labels. I think the repetition Ἰησοῦν...τοῦτον makes it clear that there is grammatical emphasis,
I think the repetition Ἰησοῦν... τοῦτον makes it clear that there is grammatical emphasis, Thanks for your response, Wes. I had noticed the τοῦτον and figured that it referenced back to Ἰησοῦν.
The τοῦτον picks things up again after the parenthetic καθὼς αὐτοὶ οἴδατε. The emphasis comes from being the first thing - the topic of discussion, and from being the last thing mentioned - the specific point being made. In this case there the beginning is itself picked up in three endings (final statements). In other words, the general topic of this passage is also the specific point. Common, sober, and serious narrative structure in Koine Greek is quite similar to the pattern and structure of racey / fast-paced of joke-telling in English, so I will intersperse a pseudo-joke - one that's not really funny, but which I will make up in a parallel structure, to show how the one beginning comes to the three endings. I wish I could put it into three columns for you, but such is the nature of the medium here; Ἄνδρες Ἰσραηλῖται, ἀκούσατε τοὺς λόγους τούτους. - an opening statement of the topic - "The following words are for you". (Three doctors walk into a pub - a sugeon, an anaesthetist and cosmetic surgeon) Ἰησοῦν τὸν Ναζωραῖον - The general topic of what is said (they see Jack), ἄνδρα a slightly specific piece of information (a bloke) ⸂ἀποδεδειγμένον ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ⸃ a more specific piece of information (coming on this medical walking frame) εἰς ὑμᾶς a punchline (right over to them) δυνάμεσι καὶ τέρασι καὶ σημείοις (with all sorts of limping, swaying and tapping) οἷς the relative clause begins a dicursive explicative or explanational statement about what went on outside the temporal (or other) reference framework of the joke - the half-time break, in which we the listeners (players) relax, before going out again to tackle the opposing teams heads into the ground again with added fury ἐποίησεν διʼ αὐτοῦ ὁ θεὸς (which the leg made as he walked) ἐν μέσῳ ὑμῶν a giggle or emotionally engaged moment (right up to the three), ⸀καθὼς αὐτοὶ οἴδατε (then they recognised who he was), 23 τοῦτον a reference back to a person or event in the first half (it was the guy to whom) τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ ⸀ἔκδοτον διὰ ⸀χειρὸς ἀνόμων the quickly spoken not-really-needs-to-be-understood phrase which is shown in some action movies as an ultra slow motion bullets-in-the-air split second of calm before the rage and mayhem (by some quirk of inventory system mismanagement, budgetary cutbacks or paperwork bungling, ) προσπήξαντες ἀνείλατε the third and final climax and punchline of the joke (they had affixed a prostetic arm), In Greek, it is not a joke. It's just coincidental that the way serious things are structured in Greek is very close to the way this guilt laying speech is structured. If you are looking for emphasis in the Greek, look for the giggles or moments of heighened awareness in the joke that I've written out in parallel. To translate this text-type into a suitable form of subject matter, we would have to make some changes, according to the norms of the target language. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — February 7th, 2017, 6:26 am
Wes Wood wrote: I think the repetition Ἰησοῦν... τοῦτον makes it clear that there is grammatical emphasis, Thanks for your response, Wes. I had noticed the τοῦτον and figured that it referenced back to Ἰησοῦν. What initially struck me was the 'distance' between the direct object and the verb, but then, that's Greek. regards, Statistics: Posted by Rhoover60 — February 6th, 2017, 11:25 pm
 
Rhoover60 wrote: It looks to me like the Ἰησοῦν τὸν Ναζωραῖον in vs. 22 is the direct object of ἀνείλατε at the end of vs. 23.
If pressed, I would say that the direct object of ἀνείλατε is τοῦτον, but I would also be the first to admit that I don't see much difference between the labels.
Rhoover60 wrote: Is that correct? If so, it looks like Luke is putting the emphasis on Who Died and Who Did The Killing.
I think the repetition Ἰησοῦν...τοῦτον makes it clear that there is grammatical emphasis, but it is also hard to overlook the tethering of Jesus's death with God's plan in two different phrases as well as the overlapping lexical domains of ἀνείλατε and προσπήξαντες. I don't wish to wax theological, but I see many different modes of emphasis in this passage. I understand the author to be saying that the people of Israel killed Jesus and that this was accomplished through the *direct* actions of lawless people (Gentiles--Roman soldiers more particularly, I think). The soldiers crucified Jesus only after he had been betrayed by agent(s) unstated (Judas and/or the people of Israel). Statistics: Posted by Wes Wood — February 6th, 2017, 10:37 pm
[bible passage="Acts 2:22"] They particularly wondered what ?????????????? meant. Instead of defining the word, I described it by citing the Old Testament example of Aaron's rod budding? Is that a good example? Anyone have a better way to explain it? --- 22 Ἄνδρες Ἰσραηλῖται, ἀκούσατε τοὺς λόγους τούτους. Ἰησοῦν τὸν Ναζωραῖον, ἄνδρα ⸂ἀποδεδειγμένον ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ⸃ εἰς ὑμᾶς δυνάμεσι καὶ τέρασι καὶ σημείοις οἷς ἐποίησεν διʼ αὐτοῦ ὁ θεὸς ἐν μέσῳ ὑμῶν, ⸀καθὼς αὐτοὶ οἴδατε, 23 τοῦτον τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ ⸀ἔκδοτον διὰ ⸀χειρὸς ἀνόμων προσπήξαντες ἀνείλατε, It looks to me like the Ἰησοῦν τὸν Ναζωραῖον in vs. 22 is the direct object of ἀνείλατε at the end of vs. 23. Is that correct? If so, it looks like Luke is putting the emphasis on Who Died and Who Did The Killing. Statistics: Posted by Rhoover60 — February 6th, 2017, 9:28 pm

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