οὐδεμῶς, φίλε. οὕτως γὰρ παράδοξον ἔδοκει τούτῳ μέν:cwconrad wrote:Am I alone in finding the position of παρὰ σοί here strange?John 17:5 wrote:καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.
τούτῳ δέ:Nonnus of Panopolis Jn 17:5: καὶ σύ με νῦν κύδαινε τεῇ, πάτερ, ἠθάδι τιμῇ, ἣν παρά σοι πάρος εἶχον, ὅτε ζαθέῳ σέο μύθῳ οὔπω κτιζομένοιο θεμείλια πήγνυτο κόσμου.
βούλομαί σε ἐρρῶσθαι δή. Μᾶρκος. Statistics: Posted by Mark Lightman — March 7th, 2014, 4:53 pmBambas Jn 17:5: καὶ τώρα δόξασόν με σύ, Πάτερ, πλησίον σου, μὲ τὴν δόξαν τὴν ὁποίαν εἶχον παρὰ σοὶ πρὶν γείνῃ ὁ κόσμος.
Yeah, I think the unmarked order would be εἶχον παρὰ σοὶ πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι (Levinsohn's default ordering principles has persons coming before temporal adjuncts), so transposing the two prepositional phrases should be marked. To the extent that the word order is ambiguous as to which verb the finally placed παρὰ σοί modifies, either εἶχον or εἶναι, I don't think the theology of the evangelist permits the idea of a preexistent world that was not in the Father's presence. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Carlson — March 7th, 2014, 7:38 am
Just passing on the wisdom of others but S. Levinsohn's arguments in Chapter 3 of his Discourse Features of the Greek New Testament would argue that this is end of clause emphasis - or using his technical term "Dominant focal element" and his mark-ups of John 17 confirm that. Statistics: Posted by Hefin J. Jones — March 7th, 2014, 6:30 am
I've been asked whether the prepositional phrase at the end of this verse could be construed with the εἶναι of πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. I don't think so ("before the world was in your presence"?). But upon thinking about that, I realize that I've always been bothered by the position of παρὰ σοί at the end of the clause and separated from ᾗ εἶχον by πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. The syntax does seem to be understood by all in terms of ᾗ εἶχον παρὰ σοί as as unit with πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι as a temporal adverbial qualifier: "which I had in your presence before the world existed." Am I alone in finding the position of παρὰ σοί here strange? Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — March 7th, 2014, 6:21 amJohn 17:5 wrote: καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.