Luke 11:7

[bible passage=”Luke 11:7″]

Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to
within the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in
himself, i.e. he thought them as opposed to the traditional
interpretation that he spoke them outloud from within the house? If
Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at this time I’d appreciate
any insights the hebrew might add.

kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē
thura kekleistai kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou
dunamai anastas dounai soi

Thanks,

Greg Marquez
href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
www.ivChristianCenter.com

People who read this article also liked:

[AuthorRecommendedPosts]

8 thoughts on “Luke 11:7

  1. George F Somsel says:

    κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
    τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.

    As I’ve said on more than one occassion, “Context is king.”  While I suppose
    ἔσωθεν ESWQEN might be used for “to himself”, I don’t think that likely.   Cf.
    Lk 11.39, but even there it seems that the comparison is to the inside of a cup
    as opposed to the outside.  In Lk 7.39 when it definitely refers to one’s
    “conversing” with himself it uses ἐν ἑαυτῷ EN hEAUTWi. 
     
    Now, for the context:
     
    Notice that the one man is inside while we still need to determine where the
    other might be (though the suspicion is that he would be outside since the
    householder says “My chilren are in bed together with me.”  Does he mean they
    are all in one bed?  Doubtful.  He probably simply means “We’ve all gone to
    bed.”  Then note that he also says “The door is locked.”  This would be of
    little significance if he had opened the door and let his neighbor in.  The
    picture we have then is that the householder is inside speaking to his neighbor
    who is outside and not simply talking to himself.
     

     george
    gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth,
    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
    defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus
    _________

    ________________________________
    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
    Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 11:34:49 AM

    Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to within
    the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in himself, i.e. he
    thought them as opposed to the traditional interpretation that he spoke them
    outloud from within the house?  If Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at
    this time I’d appreciate any insights the hebrew might add.

    kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē thura kekleistai
    kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou dunamai anastas dounai soi

    Thanks,

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

  2. George F Somsel says:

    Perhaps I didn’t make myself plain enough.  The context of the story indicates
    that the man inside was NOT simply thinking that he should tell his neighbor to
    go away. 

     george
    gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth,
    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
    defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus
    _________

    ________________________________
    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel
    Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:02:15 PM

    I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context choice is
    between: 

    The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
    The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.

    I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly since it
    avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving some kind of
    repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there is little basis for
    assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the part of the friend who needed
    bread.

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

    κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
    τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
    ________________________________

  3. Greg Marquez says:

    I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context
    choice is between:
    The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
    The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.

    I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly
    since it avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving
    some kind of repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there
    is little basis for assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the
    part of the friend who needed bread.

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com

  4. "Iver Larsen" says:

    —– Original Message —–
    Sent: 4. januar 2011 00:02

    I would say none of the above. To “think” or “say to oneself” can be expressed
    as George said with EN hEAUTWi (Luke 7:39; 16:3, 18:4). It is also possible to
    “say in your heart”, but that is more Hebrew than Greek (Rom 10:6; Rev 18:7).
    While ESWQEN can refer to the inside of a person or internally as in Mark
    7:21,23, Luke 11:39, 2 Cor 7:5, I do not see evidence that ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS
    EIPHi can possibly mean “having answered and said inside himself”. The person
    inside responded to the person outside without shouting – as that would wake up
    the children. That makes perfect sense in context. It is understandable that
    this friend was reluctant to get up at midnight to find bread and in the process
    disturb his wife and maybe the children. Well, he might not do it because of
    friendship and normal social obligation, but he may well do it if the other
    person persists in asking. I can see nothing strained about repeating the
    request, although ANAIDEIA does not mean repetition, but “lack of proper
    restraint or consideration, intemperateness” (LSJ).

    See also BDAG: “lack of sensitivity to what is proper, carelessness about the
    good opinion of others, shamelessness, impertinence, impudence, ignoring of
    convention (a fundamental cultural consideration in the Gr-Rom. world, here with
    focus on tradition of hospitality) Lk 11:8, either of the one who is doing the
    calling out (simply εἴπον vs. 5) to his friend within, in which case the
    ‘shamelessness’ consists in disturbing the peace at an inappropriate hour –
    shameless disturbance (ἀ. itself does not mean ‘persistence’, of which the text
    make no explicit mention; but many translations draw semantic support from the
    explanation) – or …”

    Iver Larsen

    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com

  5. George F Somsel says:

    κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
    τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.

    As I’ve said on more than one occassion, “Context is king.”  While I suppose
    ἔσωθεν ESWQEN might be used for “to himself”, I don’t think that likely.   Cf.
    Lk 11.39, but even there it seems that the comparison is to the inside of a cup
    as opposed to the outside.  In Lk 7.39 when it definitely refers to one’s
    “conversing” with himself it uses ἐν ἑαυτῷ EN hEAUTWi. 
     
    Now, for the context:
     
    Notice that the one man is inside while we still need to determine where the
    other might be (though the suspicion is that he would be outside since the
    householder says “My chilren are in bed together with me.”  Does he mean they
    are all in one bed?  Doubtful.  He probably simply means “We’ve all gone to
    bed.”  Then note that he also says “The door is locked.”  This would be of
    little significance if he had opened the door and let his neighbor in.  The
    picture we have then is that the householder is inside speaking to his neighbor
    who is outside and not simply talking to himself.
     

     george
    gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth,
    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
    defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus
    _________

    ________________________________
    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
    Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 11:34:49 AM

    Must esothen in Luke 11:7 refer to within the house or can it refer to within
    the man. In other words, can it mean that he said the words in himself, i.e. he
    thought them as opposed to the traditional interpretation that he spoke them
    outloud from within the house?  If Dr. Randall Buth is monitoring the list at
    this time I’d appreciate any insights the hebrew might add.

    kakeinos esothen apokritheis eipē mē moi kopous pareche ēdē ē thura kekleistai
    kai ta paidia mou met emou eis tēn koitēn eisin ou dunamai anastas dounai soi

    Thanks,

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

  6. Greg Marquez says:

    I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context
    choice is between:
    The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
    The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.

    I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly
    since it avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving
    some kind of repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there
    is little basis for assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the
    part of the friend who needed bread.

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@Gmail.com

  7. George F Somsel says:

    Perhaps I didn’t make myself plain enough.  The context of the story indicates
    that the man inside was NOT simply thinking that he should tell his neighbor to
    go away. 

     george
    gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth,
    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
    defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus
    _________

    ________________________________
    href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel
    Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:02:15 PM

    I agree that the context is the issue. I’m suggesting that the context choice is
    between: 

    The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
    The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.

    I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly since it
    avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving some kind of
    repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there is little basis for
    assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the part of the friend who needed
    bread.

    Greg Marquez
    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com
    http://www.ivChristianCenter.com

    κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ· μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα κέκλεισται καὶ
    τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ δύναμαι ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
    ________________________________

  8. "Iver Larsen" says:

    —– Original Message —–
    Sent: 4. januar 2011 00:02

    I would say none of the above. To “think” or “say to oneself” can be expressed
    as George said with EN hEAUTWi (Luke 7:39; 16:3, 18:4). It is also possible to
    “say in your heart”, but that is more Hebrew than Greek (Rom 10:6; Rev 18:7).
    While ESWQEN can refer to the inside of a person or internally as in Mark
    7:21,23, Luke 11:39, 2 Cor 7:5, I do not see evidence that ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS
    EIPHi can possibly mean “having answered and said inside himself”. The person
    inside responded to the person outside without shouting – as that would wake up
    the children. That makes perfect sense in context. It is understandable that
    this friend was reluctant to get up at midnight to find bread and in the process
    disturb his wife and maybe the children. Well, he might not do it because of
    friendship and normal social obligation, but he may well do it if the other
    person persists in asking. I can see nothing strained about repeating the
    request, although ANAIDEIA does not mean repetition, but “lack of proper
    restraint or consideration, intemperateness” (LSJ).

    See also BDAG: “lack of sensitivity to what is proper, carelessness about the
    good opinion of others, shamelessness, impertinence, impudence, ignoring of
    convention (a fundamental cultural consideration in the Gr-Rom. world, here with
    focus on tradition of hospitality) Lk 11:8, either of the one who is doing the
    calling out (simply εἴπον vs. 5) to his friend within, in which case the
    ‘shamelessness’ consists in disturbing the peace at an inappropriate hour –
    shameless disturbance (ἀ. itself does not mean ‘persistence’, of which the text
    make no explicit mention; but many translations draw semantic support from the
    explanation) – or …”

    Iver Larsen

    href=”mailto:MarquezGoyo@gmail.com”>MarquezGoyo@gmail.com

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.