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Mark 12:18

If anything, I'd simply like to add here what I think is really pretty clear from the outset: the problem being raised here and the solution(s) being offered don't hinge on the phrasing of the Greek text. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — June 6th, 2014, 1:22 pm
 
Stephen Hughes wrote: Am I missing something obvious here in the Greek? There doesn't seem to be any verbs in the green that suggest that the statement in the red is true.
Mark 12:18-27 wrote:Καὶ ἔρχονται Σαδδουκαῖοι πρὸς αὐτόν , οἵτινες λέγουσιν ἀνάστασιν μὴ εἶναι· καὶ ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτόν, λέγοντες, Διδάσκαλε, Μωσῆς ἔγραψεν ἡμῖν, ὅτι ἐάν τινος ἀδελφὸς ἀποθάνῃ, καὶ καταλίπῃ γυναῖκα, καὶ τέκνα μὴ ἀφῇ, ἵνα λάβῃ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξαναστήσῃ σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ· ἑπτὰ ἀδελφοὶ ἦσαν · καὶ ὁ πρῶτος ἔλαβεν γυναῖκα , καὶ ἀποθνῄσκων οὐκ ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ δεύτερος ἔλαβεν αὐτήν, καὶ ἀπέθανεν, καὶ οὐδὲ αὐτὸς ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ τρίτος ὡσαύτως. Καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὴν οἱ ἑπτά , καὶ οὐκ ἀφῆκαν σπέρμα. Ἐσχάτη πάντων ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἡ γυνή. Ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει, ὅταν ἀναστῶσιν, τίνος αὐτῶν ἔσται γυνή ; Οἱ γὰρ ἑπτὰ ἔσχον αὐτὴν γυναῖκα . Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ διὰ τοῦτο πλανᾶσθε, μὴ εἰδότες τὰς γραφάς, μηδὲ τὴν δύναμιν τοῦ θεοῦ; Ὅταν γὰρ ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῶσιν, οὔτε γαμοῦσιν, οὔτε γαμίσκονται, ἀλλ’ εἰσὶν ὡς ἄγγελοι οἱ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. Περὶ δὲ τῶν νεκρῶν, ὅτι ἐγείρονται, οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ Μωσέως, ἐπὶ τοῦ βάτου, ὡς εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, λέγων, Ἐγὼ ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραάμ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαάκ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακώβ; Οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ θεὸς νεκρῶν, ἀλλὰ θεὸς ζώντων· ὑμεῖς οὖν πολὺ πλανᾶσθε.
Is there something here that implies the ζώντων = living in the hope of resurrection? Is there an implication from something in that underlined sentence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead? I don't see that the one is the logical proof of the other.
I'm going to offer what I think is a logical interpretation of the text, but feel free to reject it on your own grounds. :) The author writes that a group of Sadducees, who say that there isn't a resurrection, asks Jesus a question implying that there is an inconsistency between resurrection and their perception of marriage. Jesus' answer has two parts, firstly that they are mistaken about marriage in the heavens, and secondly ("περι δε των νεκρων") that they are mistaken about the lack of resurrection (presumably implying that he knew what they were trying to get at with their question). So the second part does not follow from the first part. Instead, Jesus is saying that if they accept God as being called "the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" even though Abraham and Isaac and Jacob had already been dead at the point God chose to describe himself that way, then they should accept that God would raise Abraham and Isaac and Jacob to life again otherwise he could no longer be called their God if they would no longer exist. I do not think that Jesus' words imply that they are currently alive in some way. Statistics: Posted by David Lim — June 6th, 2014, 10:23 am
I'm going to opt out of this discussion; it seems to me that it has crossed over from interpretation of a specific text to a broader question of interrelation of disparate Biblical texts and discussion of doctrine. That kind of discussion lies outside the scope of this forum, in my opinion. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — June 2nd, 2014, 2:37 pm
 
Stephen Hughes wrote: Is it a word play on the meaning of animal and spiritual life? It reads more convincingly in English were the "is" is supplied.
What is it that's not clear about the difference between νεκρῶν and ζώντων? As I see it, νεκρῶν does not mean the same thing as τεθνηκότων. The implication is surely that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive, although nothing is said that would characterize the nature of their life -- animal, vegetable, mineral, spiritual, whatever. Our wanting to know more than we are told should not blind us to what we have been told. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — June 2nd, 2014, 9:47 am
Is it a word play on the meaning of animal and spiritual life? It reads more convincingly in English were the "is" is supplied. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — June 2nd, 2014, 8:26 am
 
Stephen Hughes wrote: Am I missing something obvious here in the Greek? There doesn't seem to be any verbs in the green that suggest that the statement in the red is true.
Mark 12:18-27 wrote:Καὶ ἔρχονται Σαδδουκαῖοι πρὸς αὐτόν , οἵτινες λέγουσιν ἀνάστασιν μὴ εἶναι· καὶ ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτόν, λέγοντες, Διδάσκαλε, Μωσῆς ἔγραψεν ἡμῖν, ὅτι ἐάν τινος ἀδελφὸς ἀποθάνῃ, καὶ καταλίπῃ γυναῖκα, καὶ τέκνα μὴ ἀφῇ, ἵνα λάβῃ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξαναστήσῃ σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ· ἑπτὰ ἀδελφοὶ ἦσαν · καὶ ὁ πρῶτος ἔλαβεν γυναῖκα , καὶ ἀποθνῄσκων οὐκ ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ δεύτερος ἔλαβεν αὐτήν, καὶ ἀπέθανεν, καὶ οὐδὲ αὐτὸς ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ τρίτος ὡσαύτως. Καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὴν οἱ ἑπτά , καὶ οὐκ ἀφῆκαν σπέρμα. Ἐσχάτη πάντων ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἡ γυνή. Ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει, ὅταν ἀναστῶσιν, τίνος αὐτῶν ἔσται γυνή ; Οἱ γὰρ ἑπτὰ ἔσχον αὐτὴν γυναῖκα . Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ διὰ τοῦτο πλανᾶσθε, μὴ εἰδότες τὰς γραφάς, μηδὲ τὴν δύναμιν τοῦ θεοῦ; Ὅταν γὰρ ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῶσιν, οὔτε γαμοῦσιν, οὔτε γαμίσκονται, ἀλλ’ εἰσὶν ὡς ἄγγελοι οἱ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. Περὶ δὲ τῶν νεκρῶν, ὅτι ἐγείρονται, οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ Μωσέως, ἐπὶ τοῦ βάτου, ὡς εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, λέγων, Ἐγὼ ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραάμ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαάκ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακώβ; Οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ θεὸς νεκρῶν, ἀλλὰ θεὸς ζώντων· ὑμεῖς οὖν πολὺ πλανᾶσθε.
Is there something here that implies the ζώντων = living in the hope of resurrection? Is there an implication from something in that underlined sentence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead? I don't see that the one is the logical proof of the other.
FWIW, as I read it, the text is asserting that God is a) the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and b) the god of those who are alive, and that therefore, c) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive - now! God is not the god of corpses. Perhaps I am myself misunderstanding this, but I don't see your problem. Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — June 2nd, 2014, 8:16 am
Am I missing something obvious here in the Greek? There doesn't seem to be any verbs in the green that suggest that the statement in the red is true.
Mark 12:18-27 wrote: Καὶ ἔρχονται Σαδδουκαῖοι πρὸς αὐτόν , οἵτινες λέγουσιν ἀνάστασιν μὴ εἶναι· καὶ ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτόν, λέγοντες, Διδάσκαλε, Μωσῆς ἔγραψεν ἡμῖν, ὅτι ἐάν τινος ἀδελφὸς ἀποθάνῃ, καὶ καταλίπῃ γυναῖκα, καὶ τέκνα μὴ ἀφῇ, ἵνα λάβῃ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξαναστήσῃ σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ· ἑπτὰ ἀδελφοὶ ἦσαν · καὶ ὁ πρῶτος ἔλαβεν γυναῖκα , καὶ ἀποθνῄσκων οὐκ ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ δεύτερος ἔλαβεν αὐτήν, καὶ ἀπέθανεν, καὶ οὐδὲ αὐτὸς ἀφῆκεν σπέρμα· καὶ ὁ τρίτος ὡσαύτως. Καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὴν οἱ ἑπτά , καὶ οὐκ ἀφῆκαν σπέρμα. Ἐσχάτη πάντων ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἡ γυνή. Ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει, ὅταν ἀναστῶσιν, τίνος αὐτῶν ἔσται γυνή ; Οἱ γὰρ ἑπτὰ ἔσχον αὐτὴν γυναῖκα . Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ διὰ τοῦτο πλανᾶσθε, μὴ εἰδότες τὰς γραφάς, μηδὲ τὴν δύναμιν τοῦ θεοῦ; Ὅταν γὰρ ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῶσιν, οὔτε γαμοῦσιν, οὔτε γαμίσκονται, ἀλλ’ εἰσὶν ὡς ἄγγελοι οἱ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. Περὶ δὲ τῶν νεκρῶν, ὅτι ἐγείρονται, οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ Μωσέως, ἐπὶ τοῦ βάτου, ὡς εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, λέγων, Ἐγὼ ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραάμ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαάκ, καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακώβ; Οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ θεὸς νεκρῶν, ἀλλὰ θεὸς ζώντων· ὑμεῖς οὖν πολὺ πλανᾶσθε.
Is there something here that implies the ζώντων = living in the hope of resurrection? Is there an implication from something in that underlined sentence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead? I don't see that the one is the logical proof of the other. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — June 2nd, 2014, 7:22 am