1 Thessalonians 5:10

1 Thess 5:10 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Jan 30 02:44:43 EST 2002

DOMATA in Mal 1:3 1 Thess 5:10 > on 1/29/02 12:39 PM, Iver Larsen wrote:> > > 1 Thess 5:10 says> > hINA EITE GRHGORWMEN EITE KAQEUDWMEN hAMA SUN AUTWi ZHSWMEN.> >> > My question is about the sense of the two verbs. Let me suggest> > alternatives:> > Does GRHGOREW here mean> > 1) be literally awake> > 2) be watchful, alert, spiritually awake> > 3) be physically alive> >> > Does KAQEUDW here mean> > 1) be literally asleep> > 2) be dull, spiritually asleep> > 3) be physically dead> Note that OI EGRHGOROI in various forms is used about 12 times in 1 Enoch> 1-32 (Codex Panopolitanus) for angelic beings both good and evil.> Does this have any impact on 1 Thess 5:10? Probably not. However, it is abit of> lexical data you may not have encountered in the standard lexicons.Clay, you are right on both counts. I had not encountered this, and I don’tthink it is particularly relevant for the use here, except to support mysuspicion that option 3 is impossible for GREGORHEW since it is neverattested. Angelic beings are watching (keeping vigil) over humans, that isfair enough. I am not sure the variant form EGRHGOREW can be used in anyother sense than keeping vigil. In the NT the two seem to have merged.Iver Larsen

DOMATA in Mal 1:31 Thess 5:10

1 Thess 5:10 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Jan 29 15:39:15 EST 2002

DOMATA in Mal 1:3 1 Thess 5:10 Thank you very much to those who responded to my query on 1 Tim 2:7. Therewas no clear preference for option 1 or 2, and some wanted to sit on thefence saying both. But I am happy that there were several who supportedoption 2 which is my preference. I am not sure there is something which canproperly be termed “dative of content” and I could not find “content” as asense listed in BAGD for the preposition EN. The closest I could find was”in reference to”.Now I have another query. These are relevant for the translation I amworking on.1 Thess 5:10 sayshINA EITE GRHGORWMEN EITE KAQEUDWMEN hAMA SUN AUTWi ZHSWMEN.My question is about the sense of the two verbs. Let me suggestalternatives:Does GRHGOREW here mean1) be literally awake2) be watchful, alert, spiritually awake3) be physically aliveDoes KAQEUDW here mean1) be literally asleep2) be dull, spiritually asleep3) be physically deadI could look the words up in the dictionary, which I have. But I havereasons to be suspicious of the dictionaries for this particular instance,because they suggest a sense for these two words in this particular contextthat is different from the senses attested in all other occurrences of thesame words in the GNT. It is implied in the context of 1 Thess 5:10 that thetwo verbs refers to the time/event of the parousia.Your preference? (Preferably with lexical and contextual reasons.)Thanks,Iver Larsen

DOMATA in Mal 1:31 Thess 5:10

1 Thess 5:10 Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Tue Jan 29 16:37:27 EST 2002

1 Thess 5:10 rough breathing, KOINE In a message dated 1/29/2002 3:37:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, iver_larsen at sil.org writes:> My question is about the sense of the two verbs. Let me suggest> alternatives:> Does GRHGOREW here mean> 1) be literally awake> 2) be watchful, alert, spiritually awake> 3) be physically alive> > Does KAQEUDW here mean> 1) be literally asleep> 2) be dull, spiritually asleep> 3) be physically dead> AND THE ANSWER IS (drumroll, please) #3.I think I understand why you have some reservations. In v. 6 the pair KAQEUD*/GRHGOR* are used to indicate those whom he classifies as children of darkness/children of light. He appears to have changed the significance of the words here. Putting aside any theological issue, it would be inconceiveable to speak of being “children of light” and therefore “awake” (by which I would understand “spiritually alive”) and yet be able to speak of the possibility of being either awake or asleep.gfsomsel————– next part ————–An HTML attachment was scrubbed…URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20020129/7188f23b/attachment.html

1 Thess 5:10rough breathing, KOINE

1 Thess 5:10 c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jan 29 17:40:24 EST 2002

rough breathing, KOINE DOMATA in Mal 1:3 on 1/29/02 12:39 PM, Iver Larsen wrote:> 1 Thess 5:10 says> hINA EITE GRHGORWMEN EITE KAQEUDWMEN hAMA SUN AUTWi ZHSWMEN.> > My question is about the sense of the two verbs. Let me suggest> alternatives:> Does GRHGOREW here mean> 1) be literally awake> 2) be watchful, alert, spiritually awake> 3) be physically alive> > Does KAQEUDW here mean> 1) be literally asleep> 2) be dull, spiritually asleep> 3) be physically dead> > I could look the words up in the dictionary, which I have. But I have> reasons to be suspicious of the dictionaries for this particular instance,> because they suggest a sense for these two words in this particular context> that is different from the senses attested in all other occurrences of the> same words in the GNT. It is implied in the context of 1 Thess 5:10 that the> two verbs refers to the time/event of the parousia.Iver,Note that OI EGRHGOROI in various forms is used about 12 times in 1 Enoch1-32 (Codex Panopolitanus) for angelic beings both good and evil. Does thishave any impact on 1 Thess 5:10? Probably not. However, it is a bit oflexical data you may not have encountered in the standard lexicons.Also, note that John Nelson Darby* goes with option #3. And of course Darbyis right, isn’t he?– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062*pages 107-8, Darby, John Nelson Synopsis of the Books of the Bible: Vol 5:Colossians – RevelationLondon: G Morrish Cloth. 568 pages. Date ??? late19th century. Off Topic Observation on Darby:Just picked up my copy of Darby last night. Another curio. Gotta break thishabit of buying curio books just because the are somewhat rare. Actually, Iknow a pastor in Oregon somewhere who collects old dispensationalists and Iam going to send him the book if I can locate him.

rough breathing, KOINEDOMATA in Mal 1:3

1 Thess 5:10 Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Wed Jan 30 02:49:25 EST 2002

1 Thess 5:10 Bad Grammar ? and John 15:26, 16:7-8, 13-14 Dear Iver,GRHGOREW is used 5:6, 10 to be “watchful, alert, spiritually awake.” KAQEUDW in 5:6, 7 & 10 isused of being “dull, spiritually asleep” which is in contrast to GRHGOREW. This is especiallytrue of verse 10 where EITE…EITE refers to both, implying that they will be with the Lord.This is interesting when 4:13-15 uses KOIMAOMAI for those believers who bodies have diedphysically, but are spiritually with the Lord. I do not know if one can make too much of adifference between KAQEUDW and KOIMAOMAI, but the context seems to indicate that there is adistinction being made, if only for this context.En Xpistw,Rev. Bryant J. Williams III—– Original Message —–From: “Iver Larsen” <iver_larsen at sil.org>To: “Biblical Greek” < at franklin.oit.unc.edu>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:39 PMSubject: [] 1 Thess 5:10> Thank you very much to those who responded to my query on 1 Tim 2:7. There> was no clear preference for option 1 or 2, and some wanted to sit on the> fence saying both. But I am happy that there were several who supported> option 2 which is my preference. I am not sure there is something which can> properly be termed “dative of content” and I could not find “content” as a> sense listed in BAGD for the preposition EN. The closest I could find was> “in reference to”.> > Now I have another query. These are relevant for the translation I am> working on.> > 1 Thess 5:10 says> hINA EITE GRHGORWMEN EITE KAQEUDWMEN hAMA SUN AUTWi ZHSWMEN.> > My question is about the sense of the two verbs. Let me suggest> alternatives:> Does GRHGOREW here mean> 1) be literally awake> 2) be watchful, alert, spiritually awake> 3) be physically alive> > Does KAQEUDW here mean> 1) be literally asleep> 2) be dull, spiritually asleep> 3) be physically dead> > I could look the words up in the dictionary, which I have. But I have> reasons to be suspicious of the dictionaries for this particular instance,> because they suggest a sense for these two words in this particular context> that is different from the senses attested in all other occurrences of the> same words in the GNT. It is implied in the context of 1 Thess 5:10 that the> two verbs refers to the time/event of the parousia.> > Your preference? (Preferably with lexical and contextual reasons.)> Thanks,> Iver Larsen> > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: [bjwvmw at com-pair.net]> To unsubscribe, forward this message to $subst(‘Email.Unsub’)> To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> >

1 Thess 5:10Bad Grammar ? and John 15:26, 16:7-8, 13-14