Paul is invoking an eschatological - apocalyptic scenario where 98% of the scenario is left to be filled in by the reader. Not sure what can be assumed about the Thessalonian’s familiarity with Second Temple Apocalyptic literature but that isn’t the problem. Paul invokes the scenario as if they were familiar with it. In the apocalyptic literature divine commands are often delivered by a subordinate agent, for example the opening of the seals in the Apocalypse where The Lamb opens the seals but a command is given by one of the living beings: Rev. 6:1 Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὸ ἀρνίον μίαν ἐκ τῶν ἑπτὰ σφραγίδων, καὶ ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων λέγοντος ὡς φωνὴ βροντῆς· ἔρχου. J. Weima[1] disagrees, he thinks that αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος nails down ὁ κύριος as the agent of κελεύσματι. I don’t follow that. ἐν κελεύσματι is an attendant circumstance. The pronoun αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος draws attention to identity of the agent in the main verb καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ. Ran across a somewhat tangential observation about the constituent order in this passage. αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος is a point of departure followed by a long marked focal constituent ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ in the pre-verbal slot[2]. This doesn't particularly address the question at hand but I thought someone might like to read this paper. [1] a Google search: φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου who is speaking, delivered among others J. Weima 2014, 1-2 Thessalonians (Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament) By Jeffrey A. D. Weima, 2014 [2] See page 25, Greek Word Order in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:11 Stephen Wunrow April 16, 2013 https://www.academia.edu/25302324/Greek ... _4_13_5_11 Statistics: Posted by Stirling Bartholomew — January 20th, 2017, 4:06 pmHe employs the term κελεύσματος, (shout,) and afterwards adds, the voice of the archangel, by way of exposition, intimating what is to be the nature of that arousing shout—that the archangel will discharge the office of a herald to summon the living and the dead to the tribunal of Christ. John Calvin
Thank you Jonathan. I've been discussing this with someone with a degree in linguistics and thorough knowledge of biblical languages who says that the Lord is to be understood as the agent of the three εν phrases. I wanted to run the question by others to see if anyone else agreed with my interlocutor. Statistics: Posted by Scott Lawson — January 19th, 2017, 10:25 pm
Oh, I see what you are getting at. Sorry I misunderstood. I don't interpret it that way, but the grammar does not rule out an instrumental interpretation. I suspect that ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου refers to the voice of an archangel, and is not saying that Jesus has a voice like an archangel. But the grammar doesn't prove it one way or another. Statistics: Posted by Jonathan Robie — January 19th, 2017, 9:16 pmScott Lawson wrote: Jonathan, Your answer doesn't really address my question. The Lord is the subject of the sentence nut is he also the agent of the three εν phrases. We seem to have two possible categories for the dative of the εν phrases; 1) instrumental 2) associative. If it's instrumental then it would seem that the Lord has the voice of the archangel, he calls out the commanding call and descends with God's trumpet. If associative then he descends in association with these things. Can we determine who the agent/agents are of the εν phrases?
Jonathan, Your answer doesn't really address my question. The Lord is the subject of the sentence nut is he also the agent of the three εν phrases. We seem to have two possible categories for the dative of the εν phrases; 1) instrumental 2) associative. If it's instrumental then it would seem that the Lord has the voice of the archangel, he calls out the commanding call and descends with God's trumpet. If associative then he descends in association with these things. Can we determine who the agent/agents are of the εν phrases? Statistics: Posted by Scott Lawson — January 19th, 2017, 8:06 pm
That's how I read it. Subject: αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος Adverbial: ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ Verb: καταβήσεται Adverbial: ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ The adverbial parts describe what's going on with the verb, how αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος will descend. καταβήσεται ἐν κελεύσματι. καταβήσεται ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου. καταβήσεται ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ. καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ. Statistics: Posted by Jonathan Robie — January 19th, 2017, 7:05 pmScott Lawson wrote: Is the agent of the three ἐν phrases ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ the Lord or is it impossible to determine? 1 Th. 4:16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,
Is the agent of the three ἐν phrases ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ the Lord or is it impossible to determine? 1 Th. 4:16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον, Statistics: Posted by Scott Lawson — January 19th, 2017, 4:21 pm
#RAPTURE You are welcome Ricky Grimsley Even John Calvin agrees
“the archangel will discharge the office of a herald ”
FULL Greek grammar proof of pre-Trib #RAPTURE
Lol more nonsense again.
Well sure if the Bible is nonsense for you…
The Bible isn’t but pretrib is. I am currently arguing with this guy in another forum who is telling me that the Calvinist created a conspiracy to obfuscate pretrib rapture by transliterating apostasia as apostasy. It never ends. It obviously means departure from the faith and not the rapture. Did they forget to mistranslated 1 Tim 4:1?
If you care to look at the actual Greek of that Bible of yours, pre-trib is presented as clear as day. Only a blind cant see it
Show me one scripture passage of scripture where there is a sequence of events and the rapture is first?
I just did. In the original Greek too. What is that going to help you?
And again Paul calls that the day of the lord that he then tells you in 2 Thessalonians can’t happen until after a great apostasy and the Antichrist gets here. It doesn’t help you.
How did the Calvinists mess up this passage obviously talking about (apostasizing from Moses) Acts 21:21 KJVS
[21] And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
2 Thessalonians does not say that except to pre-wrath. How come 2 Thessalonians did not say that to no one else in 2000+ years. That should tell us something
The whole book was written to those people that thought they had already missed Jesus’s return and were in the wrath because of persecution. Surely you know this.
God will not punish his children by putting us through the wrath to come. Satan will pour out his wrath on the Jews who open their eyes and see that the anti-Christ is not the Messiah they were expecting and then the second part of the wrath will be God’s wrath upon Satan and Jesus will deal with the sinners that are here. The Church is not hear but around the throne.
That’s the point of prewrath position. We are raptured before Gods wrath. However the first part of the tribulation is mans wrath and Satan’s wrath. If you think no one experiences tribulation and wrath now…..tell it to over seas Christians. They would laugh you to scorn.
I am not talking about persecutions, we all have those. These will be persecutions that no man has ever seen before. These are called Jacob’s troubles, why? Because it takes place in Israel and to Jews world wide. The Church will not suffer Satan’s wrath that is poured out upon the Jews. We are GONE including the ones overseas. Christians will always have trials, tribulations, and persecutions in our daily walk, but this is not that which is spoken of in Revelation. Rightly divide.
#RAPTURE You are welcome Ricky Grimsley Even John Calvin agrees
“the archangel will discharge the office of a herald ”
FULL Greek grammar proof of pre-Trib #RAPTURE
Lol more nonsense again.
Well sure if the Bible is nonsense for you…
The Bible isn’t but pretrib is. I am currently arguing with this guy in another forum who is telling me that the Calvinist created a conspiracy to obfuscate pretrib rapture by transliterating apostasia as apostasy. It never ends. It obviously means departure from the faith and not the rapture. Did they forget to mistranslated 1 Tim 4:1?
If you care to look at the actual Greek of that Bible of yours, pre-trib is presented as clear as day. Only a blind cant see it
Show me one scripture passage of scripture where there is a sequence of events and the rapture is first?
I just did. In the original Greek too. What is that going to help you?
And again Paul calls that the day of the lord that he then tells you in 2 Thessalonians can’t happen until after a great apostasy and the Antichrist gets here. It doesn’t help you.
How did the Calvinists mess up this passage obviously talking about (apostasizing from Moses) Acts 21:21 KJVS
[21] And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
2 Thessalonians does not say that except to pre-wrath. How come 2 Thessalonians did not say that to no one else in 2000+ years. That should tell us something
The whole book was written to those people that thought they had already missed Jesus’s return and were in the wrath because of persecution. Surely you know this.
God will not punish his children by putting us through the wrath to come. Satan will pour out his wrath on the Jews who open their eyes and see that the anti-Christ is not the Messiah they were expecting and then the second part of the wrath will be God’s wrath upon Satan and Jesus will deal with the sinners that are here. The Church is not hear but around the throne.
That’s the point of prewrath position. We are raptured before Gods wrath. However the first part of the tribulation is mans wrath and Satan’s wrath. If you think no one experiences tribulation and wrath now…..tell it to over seas Christians. They would laugh you to scorn.
I am not talking about persecutions, we all have those. These will be persecutions that no man has ever seen before. These are called Jacob’s troubles, why? Because it takes place in Israel and to Jews world wide. The Church will not suffer Satan’s wrath that is poured out upon the Jews. We are GONE including the ones overseas. Christians will always have trials, tribulations, and persecutions in our daily walk, but this is not that which is spoken of in Revelation. Rightly divide.
Here we go grandma Louise Which verse exactly in 2 Thes 1 Link Hudson ?
Troy Day what about what verse? What does your question have to do with your comment in the OP?
1 Thes 4:16 is the verse grandma mentioned in an earlier discussion How do you not see the repture in it?
Troy Day are you talking to me? I do see the rapture there. But I believe it happens at Christ’s return, and I do not see evidence of Christ returning over and over. When Christ ascended, there were clouds. The angels said He would return as He ascended. At His return we meet Him, gathered together woth Him in tge clouds.
Where does the Bible teach that He comes half-way back, goes back up again, and comes back again. Paul’s writing and other scripture sure seem to treat the retrurn of Christ as one event.
Yes to you and grandma Still waiting on the 2 Thes verse you were referring to as solving all eschatology
Link Hudson you;ve got Christ returning over and over wrong High time you read some real theology on the rapture Event the Greek words used in the NT for rapture and advent are different There is no way one reads the Bible and NOT see all this right there
Troy Day show it in the Bible then. Are the ‘revelation’ of Christ from heaven and the ‘parousia’ the same thing?
show what in the Bible? you showed in in 2 Thes
Troy Day show pretrib. Pretrib justifications are usually allegorical interpretations weak arguments or making the apostasia into the rapture.
as Jerome Herrick already indicated rapture is in this OP (pls look at the nice sunset picture with big reference letters – there, showed and seen) This is the only way to explain 1-2 Thes Pre-trib rapture believes in one Second advent