Problems with Jude Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com
Thu Mar 25 17:22:56 EST 1999
Participles and Computer searches Participles and Computer searches ers:I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunksof several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty. However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first wordin verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word inthat verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting tokeep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to looselytranslate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kepttheir own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bondsunder darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” Iunderstand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related towhat the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I haveencountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a littlecloser proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just aself-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts ifJude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.Theodore “Ted” MannOrchard Lake, Michiganthmann at juno.com ___________________________________________________________________You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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Problems with Jude Jim Denley DenleyJT at ponce.navy.mil
Thu Mar 25 19:43:48 EST 1999
Participles and Computer searches Porphyry Theodore, I imagine that an expert may be able to address this better, but I’ve done some reading in Attic Greek, some in other books of the NT and NT period Greek. I haven’t looked up the passage you discussed from Jude either, but your question struck me as one I’ve asked my professors a number of times, and their reply was usually that the passage holds together nicely with the series of subordinate clause and prepositional phrases. They’re just wordy. But to have two (I think it was two) participial phrases and a few prepositional phrases separating the direct object from the main verb is not that unusual. It’s unusual for John where you’ve spent a lot of time so far, but I don’t think it’s unusual, from my limited experience, for Greek overall. I’m impressed, by the way, that you’re self taught. I needed professors who beat my poor brain into submission. Not a expert’s opinion by any means, but I think it’ll hold true. My address is JDChaplain at aol.com
Participles and Computer searchesPorphyry
Problems with Jude Edgar Krentz ekrentz at lstc.edu
Fri Mar 26 14:44:09 EST 1999
John 1:1-5 (in Koine) set to melody – free upon request. Overview of Greek Syntax on Perseus >ers:> >I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunks>of several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty.> However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first word>in verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word in>that verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting to>keep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to loosely>translate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kept>their own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bonds>under darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” I>understand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related to>what the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I have>encountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a little>closer proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just a>self-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts if>Jude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,>and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,>or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.> >Theodore “Ted” MannI think the answer to your questions are1. AGGELOUS is accusative after the ver TETHRHKEN at the end of v. 6.2. The Greek of Jude is rather good, in terms of more literary criteria.His senteces have more elegant word order, for example–reserving that verbTETHRHKEN to the end of clause. And his vocabulary make be a bit unusual ifyou come from John and the synotpic Gospels.Peace,++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Edgar KrentzProfessor of New Testament EmeritusLutheran School of Theology at Chicago1100 E. 55th StreetChicago, IL 60615 USA773-256-0752e-mail: ekrentz at lstc.edu (Office) emkrentz at mcs.com (Home)+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 1:1-5 (in Koine) set to melody – free upon request.Overview of Greek Syntax on Perseus
Problems with Jude Thomas J. Kraus thomas-juergen.kraus at theologie.uni-regensburg.de
Mon Mar 29 02:14:40 EST 1999
Biblical Greek and Word Origins Acts 20:28 Whose blood? > To: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:22:56 -0500> Subject: Problems with Jude> From: Theodore H Mann <thmann at juno.com>> Reply-to: Theodore H Mann <thmann at juno.com>> ers:> > I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunks> of several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty.> However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first word> in verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word in> that verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting to> keep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to loosely> translate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kept> their own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bonds> under darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” I> understand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related to> what the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I have> encountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a little> closer proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just a> self-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts if> Jude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,> and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,> or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.> > Theodore “Ted” Mann> Orchard Lake, Michigan> thmann at juno.com> After I hit the reply button I noticed that Edgar Krentz has already answered your question(s), Ted.I completely agree with him (AGGELOUS as object; Jude´s quality of style). Definitely, you should not take John and 1-3John as the source of Greek linguistic material to judge from. Coming from that corner of Greek you probably feel quite insecure while finding your way through a different treatment of word order and sentence structure (you mentioned “some 20 words in between” object and verb, which is no problem at all, moreover quite usual in classical and koine Greek, if such a categorical difference can be stated at all). You also mentioned translating the letter: well, it depends on your own liking. Some may find it hard to transfer it into another language (depends into which), some not (the same counts for every judgment of style and language: some like wordy clauses, some don´t – so judgment might(!) be absolutely partial).Nevertheless, you made quite a step into a word of foreign words and thoughts (“being a self-taught … Greek”). I would recommend to take 2Peter next to Jude (Jude 6 – 2Peter 2:4) and compare how they both dealt with their ideas. Possibly, you will find 2Peter somehow more difficult to translate!?Best wishes,Thomas J. KrausUniversitaet RegensburgKath.-theol. FakultaetUniversitaetsstr. 31D-93053 RegensburgTel. + 49 941 943 36 90Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86thomas-juergen.kraus at theologie.uni-regensburg.de
Biblical Greek and Word OriginsActs 20:28 Whose blood?
Problems with Jude Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com
Thu Mar 25 17:22:56 EST 1999
Participles and Computer searches Participles and Computer searches ers:I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunksof several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty. However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first wordin verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word inthat verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting tokeep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to looselytranslate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kepttheir own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bondsunder darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” Iunderstand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related towhat the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I haveencountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a littlecloser proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just aself-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts ifJude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.Theodore “Ted” MannOrchard Lake, Michiganthmann at juno.com ___________________________________________________________________You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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Problems with Jude Edgar Krentz ekrentz at lstc.edu
Fri Mar 26 14:44:09 EST 1999
John 1:1-5 (in Koine) set to melody – free upon request. Overview of Greek Syntax on Perseus >ers:> >I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunks>of several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty.> However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first word>in verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word in>that verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting to>keep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to loosely>translate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kept>their own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bonds>under darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” I>understand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related to>what the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I have>encountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a little>closer proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just a>self-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts if>Jude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,>and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,>or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.> >Theodore “Ted” MannI think the answer to your questions are1. AGGELOUS is accusative after the ver TETHRHKEN at the end of v. 6.2. The Greek of Jude is rather good, in terms of more literary criteria.His senteces have more elegant word order, for example–reserving that verbTETHRHKEN to the end of clause. And his vocabulary make be a bit unusual ifyou come from John and the synotpic Gospels.Peace,++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Edgar KrentzProfessor of New Testament EmeritusLutheran School of Theology at Chicago1100 E. 55th StreetChicago, IL 60615 USA773-256-0752e-mail: ekrentz at lstc.edu (Office) emkrentz at mcs.com (Home)+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 1:1-5 (in Koine) set to melody – free upon request.Overview of Greek Syntax on Perseus
Problems with Jude Thomas J. Kraus thomas-juergen.kraus at theologie.uni-regensburg.de
Mon Mar 29 02:14:40 EST 1999
Biblical Greek and Word Origins Acts 20:28 Whose blood? > To: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu>> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:22:56 -0500> Subject: Problems with Jude> From: Theodore H Mann <thmann at juno.com>> Reply-to: Theodore H Mann <thmann at juno.com>> ers:> > I have translated my way through John, 1 John, 1 Thess., and large chunks> of several other documents, all (so far) without overwhelming difficulty.> However, Jude leaves me a little breathless. For example, the first word> in verse 6 (TOUS AGGELOUS) is apparently the object of the last word in> that verse (TETHRHKEN), with some 20 words in between. Attempting to> keep Jude’s word order somewhat intact, verse 6 seems to loosely> translate something like: “And the angels–the ones who have not kept> their own domain, but have left their own habitation–in eternal bonds> under darkness for the judgment of the great day, He has kept.” I> understand, of course, that word order in Greek is directly related to> what the writer wants to emphasize, but most of the writers I have> encountered so far seem to keep their subjects and predicates in a little> closer proximity to each other. No doubt, my problem is that I’m just a> self-taught little Greek, but I’m curious to know from the experts if> Jude is considered to be a particularly difficult letter to translate,> and if so, why. Is Jude considered to have been really fluent in Greek,> or somewhat awkward? Many thanks.> > Theodore “Ted” Mann> Orchard Lake, Michigan> thmann at juno.com> After I hit the reply button I noticed that Edgar Krentz has already answered your question(s), Ted.I completely agree with him (AGGELOUS as object; Jude´s quality of style). Definitely, you should not take John and 1-3John as the source of Greek linguistic material to judge from. Coming from that corner of Greek you probably feel quite insecure while finding your way through a different treatment of word order and sentence structure (you mentioned “some 20 words in between” object and verb, which is no problem at all, moreover quite usual in classical and koine Greek, if such a categorical difference can be stated at all). You also mentioned translating the letter: well, it depends on your own liking. Some may find it hard to transfer it into another language (depends into which), some not (the same counts for every judgment of style and language: some like wordy clauses, some don´t – so judgment might(!) be absolutely partial).Nevertheless, you made quite a step into a word of foreign words and thoughts (“being a self-taught … Greek”). I would recommend to take 2Peter next to Jude (Jude 6 – 2Peter 2:4) and compare how they both dealt with their ideas. Possibly, you will find 2Peter somehow more difficult to translate!?Best wishes,Thomas J. KrausUniversitaet RegensburgKath.-theol. FakultaetUniversitaetsstr. 31D-93053 RegensburgTel. + 49 941 943 36 90Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86thomas-juergen.kraus at theologie.uni-regensburg.de
Biblical Greek and Word OriginsActs 20:28 Whose blood?
Jude 6 Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com
Thu Mar 25 12:14:48 EST 1999
Participles and Computer searches Jude 6 I know this is a really elementary question, but I’m puzzled. (I am anovice, after all.) In Jude 6, why is “angels” in the accusative plural? I would think it would be nominative. Is it the object of TETHRHKEV? Many thanks.Theodore “Ted” MannOrchard Lake, Michiganthmann at juno.com___________________________________________________________________You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Participles and Computer searchesJude 6
Jude 6 Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com
Thu Mar 25 12:14:48 EST 1999
Participles and Computer searches Jude 6 I know this is a really elementary question, but I’m puzzled. (I am anovice, after all.) In Jude 6, why is “angels” in the accusative plural? I would think it would be nominative. Is it the object of TETHRHKEV? Many thanks.Theodore “Ted” MannOrchard Lake, Michiganthmann at juno.com___________________________________________________________________You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Participles and Computer searchesJude 6
Jude 6 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Mar 25 12:24:48 EST 1999
Jude 6 Mt 26:15 At 12:14 PM -0500 3/25/99, Theodore H Mann wrote:>I know this is a really elementary question, but I’m puzzled. (I am a>novice, after all.) In Jude 6, why is “angels” in the accusative plural?> I would think it would be nominative. Is it the object of TETHRHKEV?>Many thanks.Yes, it is object of TETHRHKEN, the subject being hO KURIOS carried overfrom verse 5.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Jude 6Mt 26:15
Jude 6 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Mar 25 12:24:48 EST 1999
Jude 6 Mt 26:15 At 12:14 PM -0500 3/25/99, Theodore H Mann wrote:>I know this is a really elementary question, but I’m puzzled. (I am a>novice, after all.) In Jude 6, why is “angels” in the accusative plural?> I would think it would be nominative. Is it the object of TETHRHKEV?>Many thanks.Yes, it is object of TETHRHKEN, the subject being hO KURIOS carried overfrom verse 5.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Jude 6Mt 26:15