G. Beale (NIGTC Rev, p741) suggests that the dative here might be a dative of agency with the passive ἠγοράσθησαν. I don't see this as a possibility. If τῷ ἀρνίῳ was relocated and not connected with καὶ to τῷ θεῷ then perhaps it would be a possible reading but given the text as we have it here it doesn't seem possible. Beale's merely suggests (doesn't promote the reading) that τῷ θεῷ καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ might be a compound agent. But this doesn't look right with τὸ ἀρνίον being the agent of ἠγόρασας in Rev 5:9. ἠγόρασας τῷ θεῷ ἐν τῷ αἵματί σου ἐκ πάσης φυλῆς καὶ γλώσσης καὶ λαοῦ καὶ ἔθνους There are numerous other problems to resolve with Rev. 14:4, not things we talk about in this forum. Statistics: Posted by Stirling Bartholomew — May 19th, 2014, 3:19 pmRev. 14:4 οὗτοί εἰσιν οἳ μετὰ γυναικῶν οὐκ ἐμολύνθησαν, παρθένοι γάρ εἰσιν, οὗτοι οἱ ἀκολουθοῦντες τῷ ἀρνίῳ ὅπου ἂν ὑπάγῃ. οὗτοι ἠγοράσθησαν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ,
Revelation 14:4
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN Leonard Jayawardena leonardj at live.com
Sat Sep 6 08:35:01 EDT 2008
[] Please confirm / correct my translation [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN Carl W. Conrad wrote: BDAG s.v. PARQENOS (B) notes several instances of usage of the noun for men:======b. male virgin ὁ παρθένος [hO PARAQENOS] virgin, chaste man (CIG IV, 8784b; JosAs 8:1 uses π. of Joseph; Pel.-Leg. 27, 1 uses it of Abel; Suda of Abel and Melchizedek; Nonnus of the apostle John, who is also called ‘virgo’ in the Monarchian Prologues [Kl. T. 12 1908, p. 13, 13]) Rv 14:4 (on topical relation to 1 En 15:2–7 al., s. DOlson, CBQ 59, ’97, 492–510).—JFord, The Mng. of ‘Virgin’, NTS 12, ’66, 293–99.—B. 90. New Docs 4, 224–27. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq. Sv.======Fr Patrick B. O'Grady wrote: The use of the word, PARQENOS, in the early Christian and subsequentOrthodox Christian tradition remains straightforward; later, frequentlyin hagiography as male or female monastics. Among early virginsmentioned in hagiographical literature: the Theotokos, of course, andJohn the Evangelist, and so on...I would add here, that the derivation (as far as I can determine,unknown) probably is a substantive of a compound adjective, since suchcompounds using -OS declensional endings for male retain the same forfemale genders. E.g., H ORQODOXOS EKKLHSIA. N.E. Barry Hofstetter wrote:Carl has already given you the instances cited iin BDAG, but you should realize that ancient Greek is very flexible in this regard. A noun which is normally masculine can be given the feminine article, and vice versa. This is quite common, and really causes no one any difficulties. Leonard Jayawardena: All the instances of usage of PARQENOS cited in the BDAG for the meaning "unmarried man" occur in POST-GNT CHRISTIAN LITERATURE--except, of course, Rev. 14:4--and are in all probability influenced by a literal interpretation of PARQENOI in Revelation 14:4. If I am right on this, the use of PARQENOS in the works cited by BDAG cannot tell us what this word meant to John and the readers of his book in the first century. This would be analogous to the situation with QEOPNEUSTOS in 2 Timothy 3:16, where any use of this word in early Christian writers cannot be decisive in determining the meaning of this word as used by Paul, because the laters Christian writers could easily have used it as THEY understood Paul's use of this word. I think "unmarried man" as a possible meaning of PARQENOS could NOT have been available to John and his readers, otherwise he would not have used it where he did, the reason being that the use of this word immediately after hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN could have resulted in the very real possibility of taking the 144,000 as "unmarried men" with the implication that sexual relations with a woman per se defiles a man--a notion utterly foreign to the Bible. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that John DEPENDS on the impossibility of men being PARQENOI in the Greek language of his day to have the words hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN correctly understood by his readers. This is somewhat analogous to the swarm of locusts in Rev. 9 which is said to have "a king over them" in contradiction of Proverbs 30:27 and in defiance of a well-established biological fact. Indeed, the principle of the impossibility of a literal meaning is used not uncommonly in the Bible, including esp. in Revelation, to force the reader towards a figurative interpretation. Another prominent example from Revelation is the omission of the tribe of Dan from the list of tribes in Chapter 7 in spite of the inclusion of this tribe in every enumeration of the twelve tribes in the OT and the mention of the tribe of the Joseph AND Manasseh (!) to make up the twelve tribes. I'd like to know what others think.Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka On Sep 5, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Leonard Jayawardena wrote:>> Revelation 14:4: hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN, > PARQENOI GAR EISIN, hOUTOI hOI AKOLOUQOUNTES TW ARNIW....>> An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon based on the seventh edition > of Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon has the following under > PARQENOS: "... as masc., [PARQENOS, hO], an unmarried man, N.T. > (Deriv. unknown.).">> This part of the dictionary entry must be based on the use of this > word in Revelation 14:4 as the word unambiguously refers to females > in the rest of the NT. Actually, the use of PARQENOI in the above > verse is metaphorical, being based on the NT teaching that the NT > church, represented by the 144,000, is the "bride" and "wife" of > Christ. Paul writes, ZHLW GAR hUMAS QEOU ZHLW hHRMOSUNHN GAR hUMAS > hENI ANDRI PARQENON hAGNHN PARASTHSAI TWi CRISTWi. In Revelation > itself the church is called the lamb's NUMFH and GUNH (19:7;21:9). > This itself is based on the similar relationship between God and > Israel of the OT. PARQENOS as used of the church in Rev. 14:4, which > is the heavenly city of Jerusalem (Rev. 21:9ff; Galatians 4:26; > Hebrews 12:22), is the antonym of the PORNH of Rev. 17, who > represents the earthly city (of imperial Rome, as I understand).>> The use of the plural PARQENOI in Rev. 14:4 implies that each member > of the church is also a virgin spiritually. This is analogous to the > church being called the temple of God when her members are viewed as > working as a team towards the goal of building a habitation for God > in the spirit (Ephesians 2:19ff) , while each individual member is > also the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19), the latter of which in > fact is the ultimate reality.> In view of the foregoing, the meaning of PARQENOS as an "unmarried > man" in the above-mentioned dictionary entry is based on a wrong > interpretation of Rev. 14:4. I'd like to know whether PARQENOS is > ever used in ancient Greek literature in reference to unmarried > males. Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka _________________________________________________________________Discover the new Windows Vistahttp://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE
[] Please confirm / correct my translation[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Sep 6 09:41:56 EDT 2008
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN There is more involved than simply allowing Re 14.4 to determine the sense of the word. Moulton & Milligan have an entry on this. παρθένος [PARQENOS]“maiden,” “virgin”: cf. P Ryl II. 12528(a.d.28–9) διὰ τῆς ἑατοῦ θυγατρὸς παρθένου [DIA THS hATOU QUGATROS PARQENOU], and P Lond 9834(iv/a.d.) (= III. p. 229), where a man complains of abusive language addressed τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ συμβίῳ καὶ τῇ παρθένῳ μου θυγατρί [THi hMETERAi SUMBIWi KAI THi PARQENWi MOU QUGATRI'. In Kaibel 5653(not later than ii/a.d.) παρθένος[PARQENOS] is a child of five years of age. For the rare fem, form ἡ παρθένη[hH PARQENH] (cf. MGr παρθένα), Hatzidakis (Einl.p. 24) cites a papyrus published in the Journal des Savants, 1873, p. 100. In farm accounts, P Fay 10230(c.a.d.105), payments are made for παρθέ(νων)λικνιζουσῶ(ν) [PARQE(NWN] LIKNIZOUSW(N)], “girls winnowing.” For αἱ παρθένοι αἱ ἱεραί [hAI PARQENOI hAI hIERAI], see the citation from Michel 694 s.v.εἶτεν [EITEN], and cf. W. M. Ramsay Ann. of Brit. School at Athensxviii. p. 58..*****************************The masc. used of men who have not known women in Rev 14:4may be paralleled from CIG IV. 8784b—.Σκεῦος θεουργὸν(cf. Ac 9:15) συλλαλείτω παρθένῳβλάβης σκέπεσθαι δεσπότην Κωνσταντῖνον:.SKEUOS QEOURGON (cf Ac 9:15) SULLALEITW PARQENWiBLABHS SKEPESQAI DESPOTHN KWNSTANTINON:.cf. also Joseph and Asenath3 ἐστὶν δὲ οὗος ὁ Ἰωσὴφ ἀνὴρ θεοσεβὴς καὶ σώφρων καὶ παρθένος [ESTEIN DE hOUOS hO IWSHF ANHR QEOSEBHS KAI SWFRWN KAI PARQENOS], ib.6 ἄσπασον τὸν ἀδελφόν ου, διότι καὶ αὐτὸς παρθένος [ASPASON TON ADELFON OU, DIOTI KAI AUTOS PARQENOS]..***************************************** The adj. παρθεν(ε)ίος[PARQEN(E)IOS] is found in the illiterate P Ryl II. 4352(ii/a.d.) παρήγκελκά συ[PARHGKELKA SU(l.παρήγγελκά σοι [PARHGGELKA SOI]) ἄλλα[ALLA] (for accentuation, Archiv vi. p. 379) ἅπαξ ὅτι ἆρε̣ν[hAPAC hOTI AREN] (l.ἆρον [ARON]) τὰ παρθένειά σου τέκνα [TA PARQENIA SOU TEKNA], “I have charged you more than once ‘Take away your children born of a maiden’”: cf. παρθενικός[PARQENIKOS] in P Lond 474(1ii/a.d.) (= I. p. 82) δάφνη παρθε[νι]κή [DAFNH PARQE[[NI]]KH]. See also P Par 57ii. 2(1b.c.156) where for παρθένην[PARQENHN] Wilcken (UPZ i. p. 445) suggests παρθενικήν[PARQENIKHN] or παρθ̣ένειον[PARQENEION] with ζώνην[ZWNHN] understood. For different forms of the word used as proper names see Preisigke Namenbuch..Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Issued also in eight parts, 1914-1929. (494). London: Hodder and Stoughton..As you can see from the usage in Joseph and Asenath, it was a practice in Christian literature to use PARQENOS to reference men. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ----- Original Message ----From: Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 8:35:01 AMSubject: [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISINCarl W. Conrad wrote: BDAG s.v. PARQENOS (B) notes several instances of usage of the noun for men:======b. male virgin ὁ παρθένος [hO PARAQENOS] virgin, chaste man (CIG IV, 8784b; JosAs 8:1 uses π. of Joseph; Pel.-Leg. 27, 1 uses it of Abel; Suda of Abel and Melchizedek; Nonnus of the apostle John, who is also called ‘virgo’ in the Monarchian Prologues [Kl. T. 12 1908, p. 13, 13]) Rv 14:4 (on topical relation to 1 En 15:2–7 al., s. DOlson, CBQ 59, ’97, 492–510).—JFord, The Mng. of ‘Virgin’, NTS 12, ’66, 293–99.—B. 90. New Docs 4, 224–27. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq. Sv.======Fr Patrick B. O'Grady wrote: The use of the word, PARQENOS, in the early Christian and subsequentOrthodox Christian tradition remains straightforward; later, frequentlyin hagiography as male or female monastics. <SNIP>I'd like to know what others think.Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka On Sep 5, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Leonard Jayawardena wrote:>> Revelation 14:4: hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN, > PARQENOI GAR EISIN, hOUTOI hOI AKOLOUQOUNTES TW ARNIW....>> An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon based on the seventh edition > of Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon has the following under > PARQENOS: "... as masc., [PARQENOS, hO], an unmarried man, N.T. > (Deriv. unknown.).">> This part of the dictionary entry must be based on the use of this > word in Revelation 14:4 as the word unambiguously refers to females > in the rest of the NT. Actually, the use of PARQENOI in the above > verse is metaphorical, being based on the NT teaching that the NT > church, represented by the 144,000, is the "bride" and "wife" of > Christ. Paul writes, ZHLW GAR hUMAS QEOU ZHLW hHRMOSUNHN GAR hUMAS > hENI ANDRI PARQENON hAGNHN PARASTHSAI TWi CRISTWi. In Revelation > itself the church is called the lamb's NUMFH and GUNH (19:7;21:9). > This itself is based on the similar relationship between God and > Israel of the OT. PARQENOS as used of the church in Rev. 14:4, which > is the heavenly city of Jerusalem (Rev. 21:9ff; Galatians 4:26; > Hebrews 12:22), is the antonym of the PORNH of Rev. 17, who > represents the earthly city (of imperial Rome, as I understand).>> The use of the plural PARQENOI in Rev. 14:4 implies that each member > of the church is also a virgin spiritually. This is analogous to the > church being called the temple of God when her members are viewed as > working as a team towards the goal of building a habitation for God > in the spirit (Ephesians 2:19ff) , while each individual member is > also the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19), the latter of which in > fact is the ultimate reality.> In view of the foregoing, the meaning of PARQENOS as an "unmarried > man" in the above-mentioned dictionary entry is based on a wrong > interpretation of Rev. 14:4. I'd like to know whether PARQENOS is > ever used in ancient Greek literature in reference to unmarried > males. Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka _________________________________________________________________Discover the new Windows Vistahttp://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE--- home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN Leonard Jayawardena leonardj at live.com
Sun Sep 7 07:56:07 EDT 2008
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN In my post of this morning, I wrote the following: "So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4?" I have inadvertently omitted some words and the above sentence should correctly read as follows: "So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4?" At the time of writing GFS has already replied to my post. My thanks to him for that. I think there is a further point supporting my position that PARQENOS in Rev. 14:4 is used (of the NT church, represented by the 144,000) in its usual sense of "a woman who has had no sexual intercourse" albeit in a metaphorical cryptic manner. The hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES in 14:1 is followed by the feminine participle ECOUSAI, denoting that the 144,000 are women. But at the end of v. 3 the identical phrase is preceded by the nominative feminine plural article (hAI) BUT followed by a masculine participle!: hAI hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES, hOI HGORASMENOI APO THS GHS. This is followed by hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN, PARQENOI GAR EISIN, hOUTOI hOI AKOULOUQOUNTES TWi ARNIWi. Unless John was drunk at the time of writing, he must have meant something by these "solecisms." Since masculine forms would suffice for a mixed group of males and females, the shift from feminine to masculine articles and participles must be significant-- a point that is lost in English translations. If we understand hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN in a metaphorical sense to mean that the 144,000 are spiritually undefiled (cf. Exodus 19:15: "... do not go near a woman"; Lev. 15:18; 1 Sam. 21:4-5) and PARQENOI GAR EISIN in a metaphorical sense to mean "spiritually chaste" (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2: GAR hUMAS QEOU ZHLW hHRMOSUNHN GAR hUMAS hENI ANDRI PARQENON hAGNHN PARASTHSAI TWi CRISTWi), then this would provide an explanation for the apparently weird grammar in the verses in question: The use of both the masculine and the feminine is intended to indicate that the 144,000 are both all men and all women. This is a paradox that can only be resolved by a figurative interpretation and material for just such an interpretation is given close at hand in the same chaper in v. 4. Bear in mind that the figure of 144,000 is itself symbolical. I would repeat a point made in an earlier post. If PARQENOS also bore the sense of "unmarried man" in the Greek of John's day, then the use of the word immediately after hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN would require us to take those referred to by these words as "unmarried men" with the implication that sexual relations with a woman per se defiles a man--a notion utterly foreign to the Bible. I don't see how a metaphorical interpretation would be possible. That is why BDAG and Liddell and Scott's cite Rev. 14:4 for the meaning "unmarried man" for PARQENOS. I think John used this word in v. 4 PRECISELY BECAUSE IT COULD NOT MEAN an "unmarried man" in his day to indicate that the preceding words were not to be taken literally. Add also to this the fact that there are no known instances of the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" in Greek literature predating the GNT. Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka George F. Somsel wrote: Correctly stated that is "none that we have found to date" though there are more texts in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri than have been listed in M-M. It is entirely possible that such a usage may be found in secular Greek which up till now have been unknown due to the chance of preservation. It was the work of Deissmann which brought this to the attention of the scholarly biblical world. I would suspect that the language of the Apocalypse here is a fairly common non-literary usage. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus_________ ----- Original Message ----From: Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgCc: gfsomsel at yahoo.comSent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 11:15:13 PMSubject: Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISINGeorge F. Somsel: "As you can see from the usage in Joseph and Asenath, it was a practice in Christian literature to use PARQENOS to reference men." LJ: But that is precisely my point. There are NO instances of the use of PARQENOS in reference to adult males in Greek literature predating the GNT. So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4? Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka George. F. Somsel wrote: There is more involved than simply allowing Re 14.4 to determine the sense of the word. Moulton & Milligan have an entry on this. παρθένος [PARQENOS]“maiden,” “virgin”: cf. P Ryl II. 12528 (a.d. 28–9) διὰ τῆς ἑατοῦ θυγατρὸς παρθένου [DIA THS hATOU QUGATROS PARQENOU], and P Lond 9834 (iv/a.d.) (= III. p. 229), where a man complains of abusive language addressed τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ συμβίῳ καὶ τῇ παρθένῳ μου θυγατρί [THi hMETERAi SUMBIWi KAI THi PARQENWi MOU QUGATRI'. In Kaibel 5653 (not later than ii/a.d.) παρθένος [PARQENOS] is a child of five years of age. For the rare fem, form ἡ παρθένη [hH PARQENH] (cf. MGr παρθένα), Hatzidakis (Einl. p. 24) cites a papyrus published in the Journal des Savants, 1873, p. 100. In farm accounts, P Fay 10230 (c. a.d. 105), payments are made for παρθέ(νων) λικνιζουσῶ(ν) [PARQE(NWN] LIKNIZOUSW(N)], “girls winnowing.” For αἱ παρθένοι αἱ ἱεραί [hAI PARQENOI hAI hIERAI], see the citation from Michel 694 s.v. εἶτεν [EITEN], and cf. W. M. Ramsay Ann. of Brit. School at Athens xviii. p. 58..*****************************The masc. used of men who have not known women in Rev 14:4 may be paralleled from CIG IV. 8784b—.Σκεῦος θεουργὸν (cf. Ac 9:15) συλλαλείτω παρθένῳβλάβης σκέπεσθαι δεσπότην Κωνσταντῖνον:.SKEUOS QEOURGON (cf Ac 9:15) SULLALEITW PARQENWiBLABHS SKEPESQAI DESPOTHN KWNSTANTINON:.cf. also Joseph and Asenath 3 ἐστὶν δὲ οὗος ὁ Ἰωσὴφ ἀνὴρ θεοσεβὴς καὶ σώφρων καὶ παρθένος [ESTEIN DE hOUOS hO IWSHF ANHR QEOSEBHS KAI SWFRWN KAI PARQENOS], ib. 6 ἄσπασον τὸν ἀδελφόν ου, διότι καὶ αὐτὸς παρθένος [ASPASON TON ADELFON OU, DIOTI KAI AUTOS PARQENOS]..***************************************** The adj. παρθεν(ε)ίος [PARQEN(E)IOS] is found in the illiterate P Ryl II. 4352 (ii/a.d.) παρήγκελκά συ [PARHGKELKA SU(l. παρήγγελκά σοι [PARHGGELKA SOI]) ἄλλα [ALLA] (for accentuation, Archiv vi. p. 379) ἅπαξ ὅτι ἆρε̣ν [hAPAC hOTI AREN] (l. ἆρον [ARON]) τὰ παρθένειά σου τέκνα [TA PARQENIA SOU TEKNA], “I have charged you more than once ‘Take away your children born of a maiden’”: cf. παρθενικός [PARQENIKOS] in P Lond 4741 (ii/a.d.) (= I. p. 82) δάφνη παρθε[νι]κή [DAFNH PARQE[[NI]]KH]. See also P Par 57ii. 21 (b.c. 156) where for παρθένην [PARQENHN] Wilcken (UPZ i. p. 445) suggests παρθενικήν [PARQENIKHN] or παρθ̣ένειον [PARQENEION] with ζώνην [ZWNHN] understood. For different forms of the word used as proper names see Preisigke Namenbuch..Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Issued also in eight parts, 1914-1929. (494). London: Hodder and Stoughton..As you can see from the usage in Joseph and Asenath, it was a practice in Christian literature to use PARQENOS to reference men. georgegfsomsel _________________________________________________________________News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Sep 7 08:24:51 EDT 2008
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN? [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN? Perhaps "John" had just finished celebrating the Eucharist and had considerable wine left over. :-).The group mentioned here is taken to be a military unit as is proven in 14.14 ff these would not be a mixed group of males and females but rather solely males. It was the custom that warriors would refrain from marital relations prior to a conflict so there is nothing surprising here. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ----- Original Message ----From: Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgCc: gfsomsel at yahoo.comSent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 7:56:07 AMSubject: Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISINIn my post of this morning, I wrote the following: "So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4?" I have inadvertently omitted some words and the above sentence should correctly read as follows: "So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4?" At the time of writing GFS has already replied to my post. My thanks to him for that. I think there is a further point supporting my position that PARQENOS in Rev. 14:4 is used (of the NT church, represented by the 144,000) in its usual sense of "a woman who has had no sexual intercourse" albeit in a metaphorical cryptic manner. The hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES in 14:1 is followed by the feminine participle ECOUSAI, denoting that the 144,000 are women. But at the end of v. 3 the identical phrase is preceded by the nominative feminine plural article (hAI) BUT followed by a masculine participle!: hAI hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES, hOI HGORASMENOI APO THS GHS. This is followed by hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN, PARQENOI GAR EISIN, hOUTOI hOI AKOULOUQOUNTES TWi ARNIWi. Unless John was drunk at the time of writing, he must have meant something by these "solecisms." Since masculine forms would suffice for a mixed group of males and females, the shift from feminine to masculine articles and participles must be significant-- a point that is lost in English translations. If we understand hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN in a metaphorical sense to mean that the 144,000 are spiritually undefiled (cf. Exodus 19:15: "... do not go near a woman"; Lev. 15:18; 1 Sam. 21:4-5) and PARQENOI GAR EISIN in a metaphorical sense to mean "spiritually chaste" (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2: GAR hUMAS QEOU ZHLW hHRMOSUNHN GAR hUMAS hENI ANDRI PARQENON hAGNHN PARASTHSAI TWi CRISTWi), then this would provide an explanation for the apparently weird grammar in the verses in question: The use of both the masculine and the feminine is intended to indicate that the 144,000 are both all men and all women. This is a paradox that can only be resolved by a figurative interpretation and material for just such an interpretation is given close at hand in the same chaper in v. 4. Bear in mind that the figure of 144,000 is itself symbolical. I would repeat a point made in an earlier post. If PARQENOS also bore the sense of "unmarried man" in the Greek of John's day, then the use of the word immediately after hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN would require us to take those referred to by these words as "unmarried men" with the implication that sexual relations with a woman per se defiles a man--a notion utterly foreign to the Bible. I don't see how a metaphorical interpretation would be possible. That is why BDAG and Liddell and Scott's cite Rev. 14:4 for the meaning "unmarried man" for PARQENOS. I think John used this word in v. 4 PRECISELY BECAUSE IT COULD NOT MEAN an "unmarried man" in his day to indicate that the preceding words were not to be taken literally. Add also to this the fact that there are no known instances of the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" in Greek literature predating the GNT. Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka George F. Somsel wrote: Correctly stated that is "none that we have found to date" though there are more texts in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri than have been listed in M-M. It is entirely possible that such a usage may be found in secular Greek which up till now have been unknown due to the chance of preservation. It was the work of Deissmann which brought this to the attention of the scholarly biblical world. I would suspect that the language of the Apocalypse here is a fairly common non-literary usage. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus_________ ----- Original Message ----From: Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgCc: gfsomsel at yahoo.comSent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 11:15:13 PMSubject: Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISINGeorge F. Somsel: "As you can see from the usage in Joseph and Asenath, it was a practice in Christian literature to use PARQENOS to reference men." LJ: But that is precisely my point. There are NO instances of the use of PARQENOS in reference to adult males in Greek literature predating the GNT. So is it possible that the use of PARQENOS in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language, influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4? Leonard JayawardenaSri Lanka George. F. Somsel wrote:There is more involved than simply allowing Re 14.4 to determine the sense of the word. Moulton & Milligan have an entry on this.παρθένος [PARQENOS]“maiden,” “virgin”: cf. P Ryl II. 12528(a.d.28–9) διὰ τῆς ἑατοῦ θυγατρὸς παρθένου [DIA THS hATOU QUGATROS PARQENOU], and P Lond 9834(iv/a.d.) (= III. p. 229), where a man complains of abusive language addressed τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ συμβίῳ καὶ τῇ παρθένῳ μου θυγατρί [THi hMETERAi SUMBIWi KAI THi PARQENWi MOU QUGATRI'. In Kaibel 5653(not later than ii/a.d.) παρθένος[PARQENOS] is a child of five years of age. For the rare fem, form ἡ παρθένη[hH PARQENH] (cf. MGr παρθένα), Hatzidakis (Einl.p. 24) cites a papyrus published in the Journal des Savants, 1873, p. 100. In farm accounts, P Fay 10230(c.a.d.105), payments are made for παρθέ(νων)λικνιζουσῶ(ν) [PARQE(NWN] LIKNIZOUSW(N)], “girls winnowing.” For αἱ παρθένοι αἱ ἱεραί [hAI PARQENOI hAI hIERAI], see the citation from Michel 694 s.v.εἶτεν [EITEN], and cf. W. M. Ramsay Ann. of Brit. School at Athensxviii. p. 58..*****************************The masc. used of men who have not known women in Rev 14:4may be paralleled from CIG IV. 8784b—.Σκεῦος θεουργὸν(cf. Ac 9:15) συλλαλείτω παρθένῳβλάβης σκέπεσθαι δεσπότην Κωνσταντῖνον:.SKEUOS QEOURGON (cf Ac 9:15) SULLALEITW PARQENWiBLABHS SKEPESQAI DESPOTHN KWNSTANTINON:.cf. also Joseph and Asenath3 ἐστὶν δὲ οὗος ὁ Ἰωσὴφ ἀνὴρ θεοσεβὴς καὶ σώφρων καὶ παρθένος [ESTEIN DE hOUOS hO IWSHF ANHR QEOSEBHS KAI SWFRWN KAI PARQENOS], ib.6 ἄσπασον τὸν ἀδελφόν ου, διότι καὶ αὐτὸς παρθένος [ASPASON TON ADELFON OU, DIOTI KAI AUTOS PARQENOS]..***************************************** The adj. παρθεν(ε)ίος[PARQEN(E)IOS] is found in the illiterate P Ryl II. 4352(ii/a.d.) παρήγκελκά συ[PARHGKELKA SU(l.παρήγγελκά σοι [PARHGGELKA SOI]) ἄλλα[ALLA] (for accentuation, Archiv vi. p. 379) ἅπαξ ὅτι ἆρε̣ν[hAPAC hOTI AREN] (l.ἆρον [ARON]) τὰ παρθένειά σου τέκνα [TA PARQENIA SOU TEKNA], “I have charged you more than once ‘Take away your children born of a maiden’”: cf. παρθενικός[PARQENIKOS] in P Lond 474(1ii/a.d.) (= I. p. 82) δάφνη παρθε[νι]κή [DAFNH PARQE[[NI]]KH]. See also P Par 57ii. 2(1b.c.156) where for παρθένην[PARQENHN] Wilcken (UPZ i. p. 445) suggests παρθενικήν[PARQENIKHN] or παρθ̣ένειον[PARQENEION] with ζώνην[ZWNHN] understood. For different forms of the word used as proper names see Preisigke Namenbuch..Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Issued also in eight parts, 1914-1929. (494). London: Hodder and Stoughton..As you can see from the usage in Joseph and Asenath, it was a practice in Christian literature to use PARQENOS to reference men. georgegfsomsel ________________________________Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN?[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN?
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 17:25:53 EDT 2008
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN [] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN? 2008/9/7 Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>:> In my post of this morning, I wrote the following: "So is it possiblethat the use of PARQENOS in Greek literature AFTER the GNT is a laterdevelopment in the language, influenced at least partly by a literalinterpretation of Rev. 14:4?" I have inadvertently omitted some wordsand the above sentence should correctly read as follows: "So is itpossible that the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" inGreek literature AFTER the GNT is a later development in the language,influenced at least partly by a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4?">At the time of writing GFS has already replied to my post. My thanks to him for that. I think there is a further point supporting my position that PARQENOS in Rev. 14:4 is used (of the NT church, represented by the 144,000) in its usual sense of "a woman who has had no sexual intercourse" albeit in a metaphorical cryptic manner. The hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES in 14:1 is followed by the feminine participle ECOUSAI, denoting that the 144,000 are women.>But at the end of v. 3 the identical phrase is preceded by the nominative feminine plural article (hAI) BUT followed by a masculine participle!: hAI hEKATON TESSERAKONTA TESSARES CILIADES, hOI HGORASMENOI APO THS GHS. This is followed by hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN, PARQENOI GAR EISIN, hOUTOI hOI AKOULOUQOUNTES TWi ARNIWi.>Unless John was drunk at the time of writing, he must have meant something by these "solecisms." Since masculine forms would suffice for a mixed group of males and females, the shift from feminine to masculine articles and participles must be significant-- a point that is lost in English translations. If we understand hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN in a metaphorical sense to mean that the 144,000 are spiritually undefiled (cf. Exodus 19:15: "... do not go near a woman"; Lev. 15:18; 1 Sam. 21:4-5) and PARQENOI GAR EISIN in a metaphorical sense to mean "spiritually chaste" (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2: GAR hUMAS QEOU ZHLW hHRMOSUNHN GAR hUMAS hENI ANDRI PARQENON hAGNHN PARASTHSAI TWi CRISTWi), then this would provide an explanation for the apparently weird grammar in the verses in question: The use of both the masculine and the feminine is intended to indicate that the 144,000 are both all men and all women. This is a paradox that can only be resolved by a figurative interpretation and material for just such an interpretation is given close at hand in the same chaper in v. 4. Bear in mind that the figure of 144,000 is itself symbolical. I would repeat a point made in an earlier post. If PARQENOS also bore the sense of "unmarried man" in the Greek of John's day, then the use of the word immediately after hOUTOI EISIN hOI META GUNAIKWN OUK EMOLUNQHSAN would require us to take those referred to by these words as "unmarried men" with the implication that sexual relations with a woman per se defiles a man--a notion utterly foreign to the Bible. I don't see how a metaphorical interpretation would be possible. That is why BDAG and Liddell and Scott's cite Rev. 14:4 for the meaning "unmarried man" for PARQENOS. I think John used this word in v. 4 PRECISELY BECAUSE IT COULD NOT MEAN an "unmarried man" in his day to indicate that the preceding words were not to be taken literally. Add also to this the fact that there are no known instances of the use of PARQENOS in the sense of "unmarried man" in Greek literature predating the GNT.> Leonard Jayawardena> Sri LankaHi Leonard,One thing I like to ask about. I know grammatical gender does notreflect biological sex. (E.g. God is masculine but it does not mean'male'). Is PARQENOS to be an exception?Even though I admit that 'virigin' in a sense of virgin female can beused figurative for virgin male, why should we be hung up on thegrammatical gender of PARQENOS (if it's only masculine) to determinewhat the text say? (I am not sure is there a specific Greek word forthe male counter part anyway.)Oun.P.S.Can you use paragraph freely in your posting so that it can be read easy?
[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN[] Revelation 14:4--PARQENOI GAR EISIN?
For what it's worth, I'd certainly agree with Stirling that these datives, given the position in which they appear, ought not to be deemed datives of agent with ἠγοράσθησαν here.
Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — May 19th, 2014, 4:34 pm