1 Corinthians 11:33
Dear list, CAIREIN I am trying to look at I Cor. 11:33 from every angle. If we focus on the infinitive, what is the purpose of EIS TO with purpose infinitive in this verse? I was admonished by one grammar to not forget Meyer’s dictum that EIS with the articular infinitive is always telic. But is not the infinitive telic in this verse even without EIS TO? 1 COR.11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU,SUNERCOMENOI EIS TO FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. (NASB) 1 COR. 11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU, SUNERCOMENOI FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If that is the case, is it simply a matter of style, i.e. another way to say the same thing? Or could it be added to the simple infinitive to *emphasize* to the reader that their eating is the central reason for their getting together in the first place? If this is true, it might shed light on the fact that the DIDACH TWN DWDEKA APOSTOLWN considers such an occurrence an imperative. KATA KURIAKHN DE KURIOU SUNACQENTES KLASATE ARTON KAI EUCARISTHSATE (DIDACHE 14:1) And on the Lord’s day, having been gathered together, break bread and give thanks Secondly, how should we look at the participle? Is it possible that we might not have a temporal participle at all in this verse, but rather have a causal participle? Therefore, my brethren, since you are assembling together to eat [the Lord’s Supper], be sure to wait for one another. Or, if we do, indeed, have the temporal participle, is it possible that we might not have a purpose infinitive after all, (in spite of all we said above), but rather an infinitive of result ? Therefore, my brethren, when you assemble together, wait for one another so that you can eat [the Lord’s Supper].
Any help would be appreciated. It seems either view still fits in nicely with the context. Sincerely, Blue Harris
Ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, συνερχόμενοι εἰς τὸ φαγεῖν ἀλλήλους ἐκδέχεσθε.
There seem to be two passages in the NT with an inf following. There is one passage in the LXX (Tobit 12.1), but this is in a different clause. It does not appear in the Apostolic Fathers. This passage and Lk 5.15 are the NT passages. διήρχετο δὲ μᾶλλον ὁ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνήρχοντο ὄχλοι πολλοὶ ἀκούειν καὶ θεραπεύεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἀσθενειῶν αὐτῶν·
It is evident that the Lukan passage does not use EIS for either AKOUEIN or QERAPEUESQAI yet both are used in a final sense. It would appear to be simply a stylistic matter. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:30:55 AM
Dear list, CAIREIN I am trying to look at I Cor. 11:33 from every angle. If we focus on the infinitive, what is the purpose of EIS TO with purpose infinitive in this verse?
I was admonished by one grammar to not forget Meyer’s dictum that EIS with the articular infinitive is always telic. But is not the infinitive telic in this verse even without EIS TO? 1 COR.11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU,SUNERCOMENOI EIS TO FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. (NASB) 1 COR. 11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU, SUNERCOMENOI FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If that is the case, is it simply a matter of style, i.e. another way to say the
same thing? Or could it be added to the simple infinitive to *emphasize* to the reader that their eating is the central reason for their getting together in the
first place? If this is true, it might shed light on the fact that the DIDACH TWN DWDEKA APOSTOLWN considers such an occurrence an imperative. KATA KURIAKHN DE KURIOU SUNACQENTES KLASATE ARTON KAI EUCARISTHSATE (DIDACHE 14:1) And on the Lord’s day, having been gathered together, break bread and give thanks Secondly, how should we look at the participle? Is it possible that we might not
have a temporal participle at all in this verse, but rather have a causal participle? Therefore, my brethren, since you are assembling together to eat [the Lord’s Supper], be sure to wait for one another. Or, if we do, indeed, have the temporal participle, is it possible that we might
not have a purpose infinitive after all, (in spite of all we said above), but rather an infinitive of result ? Therefore, my brethren, when you assemble together, wait for one another so that
you can eat [the Lord’s Supper].
Any help would be appreciated. It seems either view still fits in nicely with the context. Sincerely, Blue Harris
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek DIHRXETO DE MALLON hO LOGOS PERI AUTOU, KAI SUNHRXONTO OXLOI POLLOI AKOUEIN KAI QERAPEUESQAI APO TWN ASQENEWN AUTWN. hWSTE, ADELFOI MOI, SUNERXOMENOI EIS TO FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDEXESQE.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
—– Original Message —– Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi Iver, I do not think there is any difference between the two examples. That was my observance also, that is why I was wondering if it was just a stylistic preference. George S. seems to think so. Sorry, I guess I did not communicate my thoughts very well. In verse 20 he uses just a simple infinitive, and did not use EIS TO, but as verse 33 was his concluding thoughts on the subject, I wondered why he did not continue with a simple infinitive when it would have communicated the same thought. I was wondering if in his conclusion he was trying to emphasize purpose in a fuller way, especially since their partaking of the Lord’s Supper seemed to be a manifestation of their observance of the traditions Paul passed on to them that Paul mentions in the beginning of this section in I Cor. 11:2. Or, on the other hand, I wondered if he added EIS TO because he was now using FAGEIN as an infinitive of result. I am not sure what the answer is, since they all seem to fit the context. I’m trying to consider all possibilities. Regards, Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Let me send this again, as it seemed I had a problem the first time.
Hi Iver, I do not think there is any difference between the two examples. That was my observance also, that is why I was wondering if it was just a stylistic preference. George S. seems to think so. Sorry, I guess I did not communicate my thoughts very well. In verse 20 he uses just a simple infinitive, and did not use EIS TO, but as verse 33 was his concluding thoughts on the subject, I wondered why he did not continue with a simple infinitive when it would have communicated the same thought. I was wondering if in his conclusion he was trying to emphasize purpose in a fuller way, especially since their partaking of the Lord’s Supper seemed to be a manifestation of their observance of the traditions Paul passed on to them that Paul mentions in the beginning of this subject in I Cor. 11:2. Or, on the other hand, I wondered if he added EIS TO because he was now using FAGEIN as an infinitive of result. I am not sure what the answer is, since they all seem to fit the context. I’m trying to find all the possibilities. Regards, Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi Iver, Just as a postscript to my last post…I do think, obviously, we would have a difference between number one and number two if we understand in number two SUNERCOMENOIas a causal participle.
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, *since* you come together in order to eat, wait for one another. Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, συνερχόμενοι εἰς τὸ φαγεῖν ἀλλήλους ἐκδέχεσθε.
There seem to be two passages in the NT with an inf following. There is one passage in the LXX (Tobit 12.1), but this is in a different clause. It does not appear in the Apostolic Fathers. This passage and Lk 5.15 are the NT passages. διήρχετο δὲ μᾶλλον ὁ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνήρχοντο ὄχλοι πολλοὶ ἀκούειν καὶ θεραπεύεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἀσθενειῶν αὐτῶν·
It is evident that the Lukan passage does not use EIS for either AKOUEIN or QERAPEUESQAI yet both are used in a final sense. It would appear to be simply a stylistic matter. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:30:55 AM
Dear list, CAIREIN I am trying to look at I Cor. 11:33 from every angle. If we focus on the infinitive, what is the purpose of EIS TO with purpose infinitive in this verse?
I was admonished by one grammar to not forget Meyer’s dictum that EIS with the articular infinitive is always telic. But is not the infinitive telic in this verse even without EIS TO? 1 COR.11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU,SUNERCOMENOI EIS TO FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. (NASB) 1 COR. 11:33 hWSTE, ADELFOI MOU, SUNERCOMENOI FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDECESQE. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If that is the case, is it simply a matter of style, i.e. another way to say the
same thing? Or could it be added to the simple infinitive to *emphasize* to the reader that their eating is the central reason for their getting together in the
first place? If this is true, it might shed light on the fact that the DIDACH TWN DWDEKA APOSTOLWN considers such an occurrence an imperative. KATA KURIAKHN DE KURIOU SUNACQENTES KLASATE ARTON KAI EUCARISTHSATE (DIDACHE 14:1) And on the Lord’s day, having been gathered together, break bread and give thanks Secondly, how should we look at the participle? Is it possible that we might not
have a temporal participle at all in this verse, but rather have a causal participle? Therefore, my brethren, since you are assembling together to eat [the Lord’s Supper], be sure to wait for one another. Or, if we do, indeed, have the temporal participle, is it possible that we might
not have a purpose infinitive after all, (in spite of all we said above), but rather an infinitive of result ? Therefore, my brethren, when you assemble together, wait for one another so that
you can eat [the Lord’s Supper].
Any help would be appreciated. It seems either view still fits in nicely with the context. Sincerely, Blue Harris
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek DIHRXETO DE MALLON hO LOGOS PERI AUTOU, KAI SUNHRXONTO OXLOI POLLOI AKOUEIN KAI QERAPEUESQAI APO TWN ASQENEWN AUTWN. hWSTE, ADELFOI MOI, SUNERXOMENOI EIS TO FAGEIN ALLHLOUS EKDEXESQE.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
—– Original Message —– Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi Iver, I do not think there is any difference between the two examples. That was my observance also, that is why I was wondering if it was just a stylistic preference. George S. seems to think so. Sorry, I guess I did not communicate my thoughts very well. In verse 20 he uses just a simple infinitive, and did not use EIS TO, but as verse 33 was his concluding thoughts on the subject, I wondered why he did not continue with a simple infinitive when it would have communicated the same thought. I was wondering if in his conclusion he was trying to emphasize purpose in a fuller way, especially since their partaking of the Lord’s Supper seemed to be a manifestation of their observance of the traditions Paul passed on to them that Paul mentions in the beginning of this section in I Cor. 11:2. Or, on the other hand, I wondered if he added EIS TO because he was now using FAGEIN as an infinitive of result. I am not sure what the answer is, since they all seem to fit the context. I’m trying to consider all possibilities. Regards, Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Let me send this again, as it seemed I had a problem the first time.
Hi Iver, I do not think there is any difference between the two examples. That was my observance also, that is why I was wondering if it was just a stylistic preference. George S. seems to think so. Sorry, I guess I did not communicate my thoughts very well. In verse 20 he uses just a simple infinitive, and did not use EIS TO, but as verse 33 was his concluding thoughts on the subject, I wondered why he did not continue with a simple infinitive when it would have communicated the same thought. I was wondering if in his conclusion he was trying to emphasize purpose in a fuller way, especially since their partaking of the Lord’s Supper seemed to be a manifestation of their observance of the traditions Paul passed on to them that Paul mentions in the beginning of this subject in I Cor. 11:2. Or, on the other hand, I wondered if he added EIS TO because he was now using FAGEIN as an infinitive of result. I am not sure what the answer is, since they all seem to fit the context. I’m trying to find all the possibilities. Regards, Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi Iver, Just as a postscript to my last post…I do think, obviously, we would have a difference between number one and number two if we understand in number two SUNERCOMENOIas a causal participle.
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, *since* you come together in order to eat, wait for one another. Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 8:35:41 AM
Since you know English better than me, can you tell me the difference between:
1. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
2. So then, my brethren, when you come together in order to eat, wait for one another.
Iver Larsen
Sent: 17. december 2010 18:30
the href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek