I would like to read your thoughts on how to understand the construction EI PAQHTOS…EI PRWTOS…, FWS MELLEI KATAGGELLEIN.
If the Christ can suffer, if the first of the resurrection, (then) he is about to proclaim light
That the Christ can suffer, that the first, (therefore) he is about to proclaim
It seems to me that the translations are in all directions trying to convey the sense of this construction. I looked in Robertson’s Word Pictures but that explanation did not help me understand the connection between the subordinate clauses and the main clause, not to mention the connection with verse 22 (hOI PROFHTAI ELALHSAN MELLONTWN GINESQAI).
Thank you,
Richard Smith
—
Hi, Richard,
After verbs of declaring (in this case MARTUROMAI) εἰ (EI) can mean “that,”
pretty much the same as hOTI. Your second translation captures the sense just
fine. There is nothing conditional about either εἰ here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 5:50:00 PM
I would like to read your thoughts on how to understand the construction EI
PAQHTOS…EI PRWTOS…, FWS MELLEI KATAGGELLEIN.
If the Christ can suffer, if the first of the resurrection, (then) he is about
to proclaim light
That the Christ can suffer, that the first, (therefore) he is about to proclaim
It seems to me that the translations are in all directions trying to convey the
sense of this construction. I looked in Robertson’s Word Pictures but that
explanation did not help me understand the connection between the subordinate
clauses and the main clause, not to mention the connection with verse 22 (hOI
PROFHTAI ELALHSAN MELLONTWN GINESQAI).
Thank you,
Richard Smith
—
Thanks Mark,
That makes the most sense to me.
I had been trying to force the verse into three clauses – EI PATHTOS… EI PRWTOS… FWS MELLEI.
It now seems better to me to read only two clauses – “that the Christ can suffer; that he, the first of the resurrection of the dead, is about to bring light…”
Thanks,
Richard
—– Original Message —–
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:05:08 PM
Hi, Richard,
After verbs of declaring (in this case MARTUROMAI) εἰ (EI) can mean “that,” pretty much the same as hOTI. Your second translation captures the sense just fine. There is nothing conditional about either εἰ here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 5:50:00 PM
I would like to read your thoughts on how to understand the construction EI PAQHTOS…EI PRWTOS…, FWS MELLEI KATAGGELLEIN.
If the Christ can suffer, if the first of the resurrection, (then) he is about to proclaim light
That the Christ can suffer, that the first, (therefore) he is about to proclaim
It seems to me that the translations are in all directions trying to convey the sense of this construction. I looked in Robertson’s Word Pictures but that explanation did not help me understand the connection between the subordinate clauses and the main clause, not to mention the connection with verse 22 (hOI PROFHTAI ELALHSAN MELLONTWN GINESQAI).
Thank you,
Richard Smith
—
Hi, Richard,
After verbs of declaring (in this case MARTUROMAI) εἰ (EI) can mean “that,”
pretty much the same as hOTI. Your second translation captures the sense just
fine. There is nothing conditional about either εἰ here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 5:50:00 PM
I would like to read your thoughts on how to understand the construction EI
PAQHTOS…EI PRWTOS…, FWS MELLEI KATAGGELLEIN.
If the Christ can suffer, if the first of the resurrection, (then) he is about
to proclaim light
That the Christ can suffer, that the first, (therefore) he is about to proclaim
It seems to me that the translations are in all directions trying to convey the
sense of this construction. I looked in Robertson’s Word Pictures but that
explanation did not help me understand the connection between the subordinate
clauses and the main clause, not to mention the connection with verse 22 (hOI
PROFHTAI ELALHSAN MELLONTWN GINESQAI).
Thank you,
Richard Smith
—
Thanks Mark,
That makes the most sense to me.
I had been trying to force the verse into three clauses – EI PATHTOS… EI PRWTOS… FWS MELLEI.
It now seems better to me to read only two clauses – “that the Christ can suffer; that he, the first of the resurrection of the dead, is about to bring light…”
Thanks,
Richard
—– Original Message —–
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:05:08 PM
Hi, Richard,
After verbs of declaring (in this case MARTUROMAI) εἰ (EI) can mean “that,” pretty much the same as hOTI. Your second translation captures the sense just fine. There is nothing conditional about either εἰ here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 5:50:00 PM
I would like to read your thoughts on how to understand the construction EI PAQHTOS…EI PRWTOS…, FWS MELLEI KATAGGELLEIN.
If the Christ can suffer, if the first of the resurrection, (then) he is about to proclaim light
That the Christ can suffer, that the first, (therefore) he is about to proclaim
It seems to me that the translations are in all directions trying to convey the sense of this construction. I looked in Robertson’s Word Pictures but that explanation did not help me understand the connection between the subordinate clauses and the main clause, not to mention the connection with verse 22 (hOI PROFHTAI ELALHSAN MELLONTWN GINESQAI).
Thank you,
Richard Smith
—
Iver, might you be confusing MARTUROUMAI (from MARTUREW) and MARTUROMAI
(separate entry in BDAG and LSJ)? Surely MARTUROMAI doesn’t occur often
enough to make generalizations about possible constructions?
I suspect that MARTUROMAI (the verb in Acts 26.22) is more emotional than
you allow. (It is not only verbs of wonder that can take this EI, see the
example with AGANAKTEW in BDAG.) Something like “protest” or “insist” seems
more appropriate as a translation. Most English versions make no distinction
from MARTUREW, but Weymouth has “solemnly exhorted”.
However, some of the commentators (e.g. Jacquier, Lake & Cadbury) say that
the EI is used in Acts 26.23 to express the concept that the proposition
(that the Messiah had to suffer, etc) is something that is debated, denied
by some and has to be argued for.
Tony Pope
Iver, might you be confusing MARTUROUMAI (from MARTUREW) and MARTUROMAI
(separate entry in BDAG and LSJ)? Surely MARTUROMAI doesn’t occur often
enough to make generalizations about possible constructions?
I suspect that MARTUROMAI (the verb in Acts 26.22) is more emotional than
you allow. (It is not only verbs of wonder that can take this EI, see the
example with AGANAKTEW in BDAG.) Something like “protest” or “insist” seems
more appropriate as a translation. Most English versions make no distinction
from MARTUREW, but Weymouth has “solemnly exhorted”.
However, some of the commentators (e.g. Jacquier, Lake & Cadbury) say that
the EI is used in Acts 26.23 to express the concept that the proposition
(that the Messiah had to suffer, etc) is something that is debated, denied
by some and has to be argued for.
Tony Pope
He did suffer. He suffered for me. I hope he’s not still suffering on my account. But as he suffered and so willingly he is able know and understand the help I need. He’s really good that way.
He not suffering now. He did that here on earth. The first He came. He came to suffer and redeem us back to God. But this time He’s Coming as King Of Kings and Lords of Lords.
Saul Saul why persecutest thou me?
That Christ ( the Messiah) should suffer ( means that He would die; in other words that was the reason He came. (Isiah Chapter 53 ) , and that He should be the first who should rise from the dead. ( Jesus is the First Fruits of the Resurrection. And , therefore, the guarantee of the Resurrection of all Believers. )(1Cor. 15: 1-23. ). (Rev. 1:5). And should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. (Refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as being the only Light ,and for all people. ).
He did suffer. He suffered for me. I hope he’s not still suffering on my account. But as he suffered and so willingly he is able know and understand the help I need. He’s really good that way.
He not suffering now. He did that here on earth. The first He came. He came to suffer and redeem us back to God. But this time He’s Coming as King Of Kings and Lords of Lords.
Saul Saul why persecutest thou me?
That Christ ( the Messiah) should suffer ( means that He would die; in other words that was the reason He came. (Isiah Chapter 53 ) , and that He should be the first who should rise from the dead. ( Jesus is the First Fruits of the Resurrection. And , therefore, the guarantee of the Resurrection of all Believers. )(1Cor. 15: 1-23. ). (Rev. 1:5). And should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. (Refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as being the only Light ,and for all people. ).