Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Wed Mar 24 03:26:05 EST 1999
pictures Nails in Hands ? This is my first posting to after several months of observing, andlet me say how much I appreciate the “good spirit” on . I sense bothscholars and “little greekers” like me are equally welcome.By way of introduction, I’ve taken 1 year of Classical Greek and 1 year ofNT Greek but struggle to keep that education current as I work 40++ hoursper week in the area of Finance, not theology, although I am very active asa lay preacher.I recently heard someone teach that one of the miracles of the crucifixionwas the fact that the nails driven into the “hands” of our Lord”miraculously bypassed” the many bones in His palms. This teaching wassupported by the meeting with Thomas in John 20 and our Lord’s reference tothe marks in His “hands”.I understand the Romans normally crucified people by driving the spikebetween the two large bones in the wrist rather than into the soft flesh ofthe palm.My question is whether the Greek text of John 20:27 is of any help inunderstanding this.John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold myhands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be notfaithless, but believing.John 20:27 eita legei tw ywma fere ton daktulon sou wde kai IDE TAV CEIRAVMOU kai fere thn ceira sou kai bale eiv thn pleuran mou kai mh ginou apistovalla pistov (this greek transliteration is from my On-Line Bible)Strong’s gives the following definition of hand.5495 cheir {khire} perhaps from the base of 5494 in the sense of itscongener the base of 5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping);TDNT – 9:424,1309; n fTDNT (Little Kittle) says “the arm may also be called the CHEIR”, but itdoesn’t provide any references. C Brown’s NIDNT refers to other Greek wordsfor “fist – PYGME” and “finger – DAKTYLOS”, but I can’t find any referenceto a Greek word for “wrist”.So, to put a sharper point on my question,1 – Is there a Greek word for “wrist” that could have been used here to moreclearly indicate where the nails were driven?2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are therelinguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?3 – Are there any NT or LXX references where “CHEIR” clearly refers to thewrist or arm and not just the hand?4 – Is there any other “textual” support for the nails penetrating thewrists rather than the palms of the hands?Thanks,Jim Poulsen, CAVice President for FinanceTrinity Western UniversityLangley, BC Canadahttp:www.twu.caWhen I get a little money, I buy books;And if any is left, then I buy food and clothes. Erasmus
picturesNails in Hands ?
Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Wed Mar 24 03:26:05 EST 1999
pictures Nails in Hands ? This is my first posting to after several months of observing, andlet me say how much I appreciate the “good spirit” on . I sense bothscholars and “little greekers” like me are equally welcome.By way of introduction, I’ve taken 1 year of Classical Greek and 1 year ofNT Greek but struggle to keep that education current as I work 40++ hoursper week in the area of Finance, not theology, although I am very active asa lay preacher.I recently heard someone teach that one of the miracles of the crucifixionwas the fact that the nails driven into the “hands” of our Lord”miraculously bypassed” the many bones in His palms. This teaching wassupported by the meeting with Thomas in John 20 and our Lord’s reference tothe marks in His “hands”.I understand the Romans normally crucified people by driving the spikebetween the two large bones in the wrist rather than into the soft flesh ofthe palm.My question is whether the Greek text of John 20:27 is of any help inunderstanding this.John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold myhands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be notfaithless, but believing.John 20:27 eita legei tw ywma fere ton daktulon sou wde kai IDE TAV CEIRAVMOU kai fere thn ceira sou kai bale eiv thn pleuran mou kai mh ginou apistovalla pistov (this greek transliteration is from my On-Line Bible)Strong’s gives the following definition of hand.5495 cheir {khire} perhaps from the base of 5494 in the sense of itscongener the base of 5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping);TDNT – 9:424,1309; n fTDNT (Little Kittle) says “the arm may also be called the CHEIR”, but itdoesn’t provide any references. C Brown’s NIDNT refers to other Greek wordsfor “fist – PYGME” and “finger – DAKTYLOS”, but I can’t find any referenceto a Greek word for “wrist”.So, to put a sharper point on my question,1 – Is there a Greek word for “wrist” that could have been used here to moreclearly indicate where the nails were driven?2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are therelinguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?3 – Are there any NT or LXX references where “CHEIR” clearly refers to thewrist or arm and not just the hand?4 – Is there any other “textual” support for the nails penetrating thewrists rather than the palms of the hands?Thanks,Jim Poulsen, CAVice President for FinanceTrinity Western UniversityLangley, BC Canadahttp:www.twu.caWhen I get a little money, I buy books;And if any is left, then I buy food and clothes. Erasmus
picturesNails in Hands ?
Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Wed Mar 24 03:42:34 EST 1999
Nails in Hands ? Luke 7:2,3 (prominence: discourse and clause) In response to my own question, I wonder if the following two referencessupport CHEIR as being more than just the hand or palm as we think of it.The binding of the hands here would of necessity be more than just bindingropes around the palms. Binding someone up would only be effective if it wasdone around the wrists.Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot,and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weepingand gnashing of teeth.Matthew 22:13 tote eipen o basileuv toiv diakonoiv DHSANTEV AUTOU PODAV KAICEIRAV arate auton kai ekbalete eiv to skotov to exwteron ekei estai oklauymov kai o brugmov twn odontwnJohn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot withgraveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith untothem, Loose him, and let him go.John 11:44 kai exhlyen o teynhkwv dedemenov TOUV PODAV KAI TAV CEIRAVkeiriaiv kai h oqiv autou soudariw periededeto legei autoiv o ihsouv lusateauton kai afete upageinAppreciate any help others might have.Jim Poulsen, CAVice President for FinanceTrinity Western UniversityLangley, BC Canadahttp:www.twu.caWhen I get a little money, I buy books;And if any is left, then I buy food and clothes. Erasmus
Nails in Hands ?Luke 7:2,3 (prominence: discourse and clause)
Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Wed Mar 24 03:42:34 EST 1999
Nails in Hands ? Luke 7:2,3 (prominence: discourse and clause) In response to my own question, I wonder if the following two referencessupport CHEIR as being more than just the hand or palm as we think of it.The binding of the hands here would of necessity be more than just bindingropes around the palms. Binding someone up would only be effective if it wasdone around the wrists.Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot,and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weepingand gnashing of teeth.Matthew 22:13 tote eipen o basileuv toiv diakonoiv DHSANTEV AUTOU PODAV KAICEIRAV arate auton kai ekbalete eiv to skotov to exwteron ekei estai oklauymov kai o brugmov twn odontwnJohn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot withgraveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith untothem, Loose him, and let him go.John 11:44 kai exhlyen o teynhkwv dedemenov TOUV PODAV KAI TAV CEIRAVkeiriaiv kai h oqiv autou soudariw periededeto legei autoiv o ihsouv lusateauton kai afete upageinAppreciate any help others might have.Jim Poulsen, CAVice President for FinanceTrinity Western UniversityLangley, BC Canadahttp:www.twu.caWhen I get a little money, I buy books;And if any is left, then I buy food and clothes. Erasmus
Nails in Hands ?Luke 7:2,3 (prominence: discourse and clause)
nails in the hands Jim West jwest at highland.net
Wed Mar 24 11:51:07 EST 1999
John 1:1-2 New World Translation At 08:42 AM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote:>In response to my own question, I wonder if the following two references>support CHEIR as being more than just the hand or palm as we think of it.>The binding of the hands here would of necessity be more than just binding>ropes around the palms. Binding someone up would only be effective if it was>done around the wrists.There is archaeological evidence that the nails were driven through thewrist when the Romans crucified folk. The Hebrew concept of “hand”, anyway,includes the wrist area and not only the palm and front of the “hand” as wespeak of it in modern America. Taking the crucufixion as historical, we canrest fairly assured that the nails would have been driven through the wrist-which, as I said, is in any event still the “hand”.Best,Jim+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDPetros Baptist Church- PastorQuartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Biblejwest at highland.netBiblical Studies Resources at:http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
John 1:1-2New World Translation
nails in the hands Jim West jwest at highland.net
Wed Mar 24 11:51:07 EST 1999
John 1:1-2 New World Translation At 08:42 AM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote:>In response to my own question, I wonder if the following two references>support CHEIR as being more than just the hand or palm as we think of it.>The binding of the hands here would of necessity be more than just binding>ropes around the palms. Binding someone up would only be effective if it was>done around the wrists.There is archaeological evidence that the nails were driven through thewrist when the Romans crucified folk. The Hebrew concept of “hand”, anyway,includes the wrist area and not only the palm and front of the “hand” as wespeak of it in modern America. Taking the crucufixion as historical, we canrest fairly assured that the nails would have been driven through the wrist-which, as I said, is in any event still the “hand”.Best,Jim+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDPetros Baptist Church- PastorQuartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Biblejwest at highland.netBiblical Studies Resources at:http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
John 1:1-2New World Translation
Nails in Hands ? clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Wed Mar 24 15:54:07 EST 1999
John 1:1-2 Nails in Hands ? > 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?Jim,There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.KARPOS, hOUsed in Homer, IL 24.671, Od 24:398also in Xeno. Cyr.6.4.2, Aristotle also used it.See LSJ for details.–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
John 1:1-2Nails in Hands ?
Nails in Hands ? Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Wed Mar 24 16:00:33 EST 1999
Nails in Hands ? Participles At 12:54 PM 3/24/99 -0800, you wrote:>> 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there>> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?> >Jim,> >There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.> >KARPOS, hOjust one point— I didn’t ask the above question. My post was a responseto the question about the archaeological evidence for crucifixion- suchevidence demonstrating that the wrist itself was pierced.anyway- we are most all certainly aware of “karpos” from the ever increasingincidence of “carpel-tunnel syndrome”.best,jim+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDPetros Baptist Church- PastorQuartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Biblefax- 978-231-5986email- jwest at highland.netweb page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Nails in Hands ?Participles
Nails in Hands ? clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Wed Mar 24 15:54:07 EST 1999
John 1:1-2 Nails in Hands ? > 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?Jim,There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.KARPOS, hOUsed in Homer, IL 24.671, Od 24:398also in Xeno. Cyr.6.4.2, Aristotle also used it.See LSJ for details.–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
John 1:1-2Nails in Hands ?
Nails in Hands ? Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Wed Mar 24 16:00:33 EST 1999
Nails in Hands ? Participles At 12:54 PM 3/24/99 -0800, you wrote:>> 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there>> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?> >Jim,> >There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.> >KARPOS, hOjust one point— I didn’t ask the above question. My post was a responseto the question about the archaeological evidence for crucifixion- suchevidence demonstrating that the wrist itself was pierced.anyway- we are most all certainly aware of “karpos” from the ever increasingincidence of “carpel-tunnel syndrome”.best,jim+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDPetros Baptist Church- PastorQuartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Biblefax- 978-231-5986email- jwest at highland.netweb page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Nails in Hands ?Participles
Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Thu Mar 25 11:49:20 EST 1999
Porphyry – more info Participles and Computer searches Clayton,At first glance I thought your response was a little “fruity”, pardon thepun, I couldn’t resist.Many thanks, for the excellent reference to LSJ. I found an on-line versionat http://www.perseus.tufts.edu which even allowed me to search for alloccurrences of “wrist” and “palm” and see the various classical Greek wordstranslated those ways in their mammoth reference library, with hyperlinks tothe original texts by Euripedes and others viewable in both Greek andEnglish with a very user-friendly indexing system!!!! Sorry for the longsentence, but finding that site reference was like Christmas!!!Thanks again for helping a “little greeker” …— Jim Poulsen—–Original Message—–From: clayton stirling bartholomew <c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net>To: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:57 PMSubject: Re: Nails in Hands ?>> 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there>> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?> >Jim,> >There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.> >KARPOS, hO> >Used in Homer, IL 24.671, Od 24:398>also in Xeno. Cyr.6.4.2, Aristotle also used it.> >See LSJ for details.> >—>Clayton Stirling Bartholomew>Three Tree Point>P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
Porphyry – more infoParticiples and Computer searches
Nails in Hands ? Jim Poulsen jp at accglobal.net
Thu Mar 25 11:49:20 EST 1999
Porphyry – more info Participles and Computer searches Clayton,At first glance I thought your response was a little “fruity”, pardon thepun, I couldn’t resist.Many thanks, for the excellent reference to LSJ. I found an on-line versionat http://www.perseus.tufts.edu which even allowed me to search for alloccurrences of “wrist” and “palm” and see the various classical Greek wordstranslated those ways in their mammoth reference library, with hyperlinks tothe original texts by Euripedes and others viewable in both Greek andEnglish with a very user-friendly indexing system!!!! Sorry for the longsentence, but finding that site reference was like Christmas!!!Thanks again for helping a “little greeker” …— Jim Poulsen—–Original Message—–From: clayton stirling bartholomew <c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net>To: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:57 PMSubject: Re: Nails in Hands ?>> 2 – If there is a Greek word for wrist and it wasn’t used, are there>> linguistic/stylistic reasons for using the more common word for hand?> >Jim,> >There is a word for wrist but it isn’t used with that sense in the NT.> >KARPOS, hO> >Used in Homer, IL 24.671, Od 24:398>also in Xeno. Cyr.6.4.2, Aristotle also used it.> >See LSJ for details.> >—>Clayton Stirling Bartholomew>Three Tree Point>P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
Porphyry – more infoParticiples and Computer searches
Perhaps a timely #EASTER #PASSOVER consideration
Perhaps a timely #EASTER #PASSOVER consideration