Jude 7 TOV hOMOION TRPON James S. Murray jsmurray at execpc.com
Tue Jan 4 23:41:42 EST 2000
Subject: James 5:13-19 Temple and New world translation of holy scriptures? Dear all,I had a couple of questions about the phrase TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOISin Jude 7. The full text reads:hWS SODOMA KAI GOMOPPA KAI hAI PERI AUTAS POLEIS TOV hOMOION TROPONTOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SAPKOS hETERAS, PROKEINTAIDEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPECOUSAI.First, is TON hOMOION TROPON an adverbial accusative?If so, does it qualify one or both of the participles (EKPORNEUSASAI KAIAPELQOUSAI), or could it possibly qualify PROKEINTAI DEIGMA. A coupleof translations I’ve looked at understand it as qualifying theparticiples. I wonder if this is unambiguous in the Greek, or is it areflection of the influence the translators feel The Book of Enoch hason the author.Thanks for your help.Jim MurrayRacine, WI
Subject: James 5:13-19Temple and New world translation of holy scriptures?
Jude 7 TOV hOMOION TRPON clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Wed Jan 5 01:43:07 EST 2000
NWT of the holy scriptures Textual Criticism – CD ———->From: “James S. Murray” <jsmurray at execpc.com>> I had a couple of questions about the phrase TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS> in Jude 7. The full text reads:> > hWS SODOMA KAI GOMOPPA KAI hAI PERI AUTAS POLEIS TOV hOMOION TROPON> TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SAPKOS hETERAS, PROKEINTAI> DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPECOUSAI.> First, is TON hOMOION TROPON an adverbial accusative?Yes.> > If so, does it qualify one or both of the participles (EKPORNEUSASAI KAI> APELQOUSAI)Both.>or could it possibly qualify PROKEINTAI DEIGMA.Perhaps.*******A few further observations.Richard A. Young (Intermediate Gk Gram, P20) says this is a difficultproblem to solve. He cites R.J. Baukham (WBC, 1983) as a proponent ofthe two participle solution and Lenski as favoring the PROKEINTAIDEIGMA.I don’t really think this problem is all that difficult. Both Baukhamand J.B. Mayor (2Pet & Jude,1907, p 20. ) see the main point of thecomparison in the APELQOUSAI OPISW SAPKOS hETERAS. I agree with themfor several reasons. First it is syntactically feasible and second it issemantically probable.They syntax might permit PROKEINTAI DEIGMA as the point of comparisonbut there is more to this than the analysis of syntax. I don’t thinkthat PROKEINTAI DEIGMA as the *exclusive* point of comparison is atenable solution. My reason for this is not primarily syntactical buthas to do with the semantic structure of the context where the patternof ideas suggests strongly that it was the nature of the activityengaged in by the Angels and Sodomites that was being compared. Thiswould not rule out the inclusion of a comparison of their punishmentwhich J.B. Mayor alludes to in his cryptic notes.–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
NWT of the holy scripturesTextual Criticism – CD
Jude 1:7 antecedent of TOUTOIS? Rob’s SoftHome united_by_truth at softhome.net
Wed Aug 28 12:05:47 EDT 2002
Lk 1:26 APESTALH APO/hUPO TOU QEOU Rough breathings in compound words hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI AUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TOUTOIS TROPONEKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS hETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOUDIKHN hUPECOUSAII hope this is not recovering over traveled ground. My question is what is theantecedent of TOUTOIS and why?1) Is it SODOMA KAI GOMORRA because SODOMA is neuter? However, the participles relatedto them, EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI are feminine plural, I assume because GOMORRA isfeminine and the closest antecedent.2) Is it AGGELOUS back in verse 6?I have always understood #2 as the best (only) option, but had this questionedrecently on the basis that mixed gender antecedents require a neuter for agreement.This didn’t seem right, but Greek grammar was a long time ago. Thanks for any help.Rob Matlack united_by_truth at softhome.netMinneapolis, KS”I can only say that I am nothing but a poor sinner, trusting in Christ alone forsalvation”–R. E. Lee”It is not our task to secure the triumph of truth, but merely to fight on itsbehalf.”–Blaise Pascal—Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 – Release Date: 8/21/02—Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 – Release Date: 8/21/02
Lk 1:26 APESTALH APO/hUPO TOU QEOURough breathings in compound words
Jude 1:7 antecedent of TOUTOIS? Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Aug 28 13:51:29 EDT 2002
Rough breathings in compound words the long ending of mark At 11:05 AM -0500 8/28/02, Rob’s SoftHome wrote:>hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI AUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TOUTOIS TROPON>EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS hETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS>AIWNIOU>DIKHN hUPECOUSAI> >I hope this is not recovering over traveled ground. My question is what is the>antecedent of TOUTOIS and why?> >1) Is it SODOMA KAI GOMORRA because SODOMA is neuter? However, the>participles related>to them, EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI are feminine plural, I assume>because GOMORRA is>feminine and the closest antecedent.> >2) Is it AGGELOUS back in verse 6?> >I have always understood #2 as the best (only) option, but had this questioned>recently on the basis that mixed gender antecedents require a neuter for>agreement.>This didn’t seem right, but Greek grammar was a long time ago. Thanks for>any help.I think that the participles EKPORNEUSASAI and APELQOUSAI are femininebecause POLEIS is feminine; note that hUPECOUSAI is also feminine pluraland must construe with the subject of PROKEINTAI, which must be hAI PERIAUTAS POLEIS.My own take on the chief question you’re raising here is that althoughTOUTOIS could may very well refer all the way back (hOUTOS quite regularlydoes refer to a PRIOR antecedent, while hODE refers more commonly to whatis to follow) to the AGGELOI of verse 6, it’s worth considering also thatit is masculine plural referring to the PEOPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah. Atany rate, I really don’t think it is neuter plural.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Rough breathings in compound wordsthe long ending of mark
Jude 1:7 antecedent of TOUTOIS? Ben and Jo Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Wed Aug 28 17:12:45 EDT 2002
Source for new Greek book? the long ending of mark On Wed 28 Aug 2002 (11:05:47), united_by_truth at softhome.net wrote:> > 1) Is it SODOMA KAI GOMORRA because SODOMA is neuter? However, the> participles related to them, EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI are feminine> plural, I assume because GOMORRA is feminine and the closest> antecedent.> > 2) Is it AGGELOUS back in verse 6?> > I have always understood #2 as the best (only) option, but had this> questioned recently on the basis that mixed gender antecedents require> a neuter for agreement. This didn’t seem right, but Greek grammar was a> long time ago. Thanks for any help.> Dear Rob, As I understand it, TOUTOIS refers back to the TINES ANQRWPOI… ASEBEIS of verse 4. These are the ones coming under Jude’s disapproval. He likens them to the townsfolk of Sodom Gomorrha Admah and Zeboiim who perished. SODOMA KAI GOMORRA are a figure of speech, synechdoche, the container for the contents. A further awful example is drawn in, the example of the fallen angels, a reference to Genesis 6:2 LXX. So TOUTOIS could refer to these fallen angels: but the scholarly consensus seems to be that it is “to these certain ungodly men” that TOUTOIS in verse 7 refers, *hWS* SODOMA KAI GOMORRA. ERRWSWQE Ben– Revd Ben Crick BA CF, and Mrs Joanna (Goodwin) Crick <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
Source for new Greek book?the long ending of mark
Jude 1:7
hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI hAUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS ETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPEXOUSAI
The NET Bible and Phillips seem at odds on the translation. The others seem like they want to straddle the fence. What is the sense of the Greek?
KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NET Bible So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Phillips Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning
Rotherham Emphasized Bible As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.
NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Roger Hutchinson
I think Philipps got it wrong. It does not concern “these men today” (directly). It is rather comparing Sodom and Gomorrah to the angels. The understanding (in the Genesis account and more explicitly in the apocalyptic literature (see 1 Enoch) are understood to have cohabited with human females so that there were two unlike species involved. The analogy breaks down somewhat since I feel certain that Jude is alluding to homosexuality rather than to a commingling of two differing species. The idea is that it is an unnatural relationship. Philips simply makes Jude’s point overly explicit.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 5:57:08 PM
Jude 1:7
hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI hAUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS ETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPEXOUSAI
The NET Bible and Phillips seem at odds on the translation. The others seem like they want to straddle the fence. What is the sense of the Greek?
KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NET Bible So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Phillips Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning
Rotherham Emphasized Bible As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.
NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Roger Hutchinson
The problem has to do with TOUTOIS (translated “these angels” in the NET but could be translated simply as “these.” The issue is how Jude is interpreting the Gen. 6 narrative. Jude seems to be saying that angels engaged in illicit intercourse with humans. Thus angels lusted after human flesh, and in Sodom the human men lusted after angel flesh. Because this understanding of Gen. 6 is not popular in some circles, some exegetes have attempted to make TOUTOIS refer to someone or something other than the angels. Most critical commentaries will deal with this issue.
Sam Lamerson ________________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of rhutchin@aol.com [rhutchin@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:57 PM href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Jude 1:7
hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI hAUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS ETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPEXOUSAI
The NET Bible and Phillips seem at odds on the translation. The others seem like they want to straddle the fence. What is the sense of the Greek?
KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NET Bible So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Phillips Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning
Rotherham Emphasized Bible As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.
NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Roger Hutchinson
I think Philipps got it wrong. It does not concern “these men today” (directly). It is rather comparing Sodom and Gomorrah to the angels. The understanding (in the Genesis account and more explicitly in the apocalyptic literature (see 1 Enoch) are understood to have cohabited with human females so that there were two unlike species involved. The analogy breaks down somewhat since I feel certain that Jude is alluding to homosexuality rather than to a commingling of two differing species. The idea is that it is an unnatural relationship. Philips simply makes Jude’s point overly explicit.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 5:57:08 PM
Jude 1:7
hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI hAUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS ETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPEXOUSAI
The NET Bible and Phillips seem at odds on the translation. The others seem like they want to straddle the fence. What is the sense of the Greek?
KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NET Bible So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Phillips Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning
Rotherham Emphasized Bible As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.
NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Roger Hutchinson
The problem has to do with TOUTOIS (translated “these angels” in the NET but could be translated simply as “these.” The issue is how Jude is interpreting the Gen. 6 narrative. Jude seems to be saying that angels engaged in illicit intercourse with humans. Thus angels lusted after human flesh, and in Sodom the human men lusted after angel flesh. Because this understanding of Gen. 6 is not popular in some circles, some exegetes have attempted to make TOUTOIS refer to someone or something other than the angels. Most critical commentaries will deal with this issue.
Sam Lamerson ________________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of rhutchin@aol.com [rhutchin@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:57 PM href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Jude 1:7
hWS SODOMA KAI GOMORRA KAI hAI PERI hAUTAS POLEIS TON hOMOION TROPON TOUTOIS EKPORNEUSASAI KAI APELQOUSAI OPISW SARKOS ETERAS PROKEINTAI DEIGMA PUROS AIWNIOU DIKHN hUPEXOUSAI
The NET Bible and Phillips seem at odds on the translation. The others seem like they want to straddle the fence. What is the sense of the Greek?
KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NET Bible So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Phillips Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning
Rotherham Emphasized Bible As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.
NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Roger Hutchinson