Luke 5:7 Kenneth Litwak javajedi2 at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 18 00:10:17 εδτ 2001
The long ending of Mark Luke 5:7 ι have some questions on the first half of Luke5:7:και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοσ en τω hETERW πλοιω τουελοντασ συλλαβεσθαι AUTOIS1. When is it legitimate to take the definite articleas a possessive? The first τοισ construciton isclealry missing αυτων or the like, and ι‘m wonderingif the article alone is considered to do that job? 2. του plus an infinitive is common, but what aboutthe aorist participle between the two? ι know theparti8ciple can be used as an imperative, but as partof a compound infinitive? Is it “to, afterhavingcome, help” or “to come and help”?3. Why is this followed by a dative, not anaccusative?Thanks.Ken “To come help with them?”__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.http://buzz.yahoo.com/
The long ending of MarkLuke 5:7
Luke 5:7 Maurice α. ο‘Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Mon Jun 18 11:33:30 εδτ 2001
Luke 5:7 του hHLIOU εκλιποντοσ At 05:10 18/06/01, you wrote:> ι have some questions on the first half of Luke>5:7:>και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοσ en τω hETERW πλοιω του>ελοντασ συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισKen:Would it help clear things up for you by pointing out a typo – μετοξοισ is correct.So this dispenses with your contention that:>1. The first τοισ construciton is>clealry missing αυτων or the like, and ι‘m wondering>if the article alone is considered to do that job?Literally,” and they signalled to those participating in the other boat to come and help them “All the information necessary to arrive at this translation is available in βαγδ:κατανευω:signal by means of a nod τινι to someone.μετοξοσ:sharing or participating in w. gen. of the pers. or thingSULLAMBANW:Again, βαγδ notes: take hold of together, then support, aid, help (Aeschyl.+) w. dat. of the one to whom help is givenI think this answers your queries, except perhaps:>2. του plus an infinitive is common, but what about>the aorist participle between the two? ι know the>parti8ciple can be used as an imperative, but as part>of a compound infinitive? Is it “to, afterhaving>come, help” or “to come and help”?Here you have an articular infinitive, with the subject in the accusative ( perfectly normal Greek construction, ι should think? ) with, as Fitzmyer points out, ” a circumstantial participle to denote purpose “.If you have access to “Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics ” you will find a section devoted to: >>>1. Adverbial (or Circumstantial): modifies the verb, answering the question When? (temporal), How? (means, manner), Why? (purpose, cause), etc. (62240)<<<and Wallace amplifies this with: >>>>>>d. Cause: because (answers the question, Why?); indicates the cause or reason or ground of the action of the finite verb; usually precedes its verb (63132)<<<<<<Hope this clears things up.MauriceMaurice α. ο‘Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie
Luke 5:7TOU hHLIOU εκλιποντοσ
Luke 5:7 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Jun 18 14:31:53 εδτ 2001
του hHLIOU εκλιποντοσ Luke 5:7 At 9:10 πμ -0700 6/17/01, Kenneth Litwak wrote:> ι have some questions on the first half of Luke>5:7:>και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοσ en τω hETERW πλοιω του>ελοντασ συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισIt’s easier to work from a correct Greek text: και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοισεν TWi hETERWi PLOIWi του ελθοντασ συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισ.>1. When is it legitimate to take the definite article>as a possessive? The first τοισ construciton is>clealry missing αυτων or the like, and ι‘m wondering>if the article alone is considered to do that job?Yes, ι would say so; this is quite standard as a usage of the article. Onthe other hand, some Hellenistic writers probably would have added an AUTWNto τοισ μετοξοισ.>2. του plus an infinitive is common, but what about>the aorist participle between the two? ι know the>participle can be used as an imperative, but as part>of a compound infinitive? Is it “to, afterhaving>come, help” or “to come and help”?Yes: it’s either or both: “to come and assist them” or “having come toassist them”–i.e. the aorist participle preceding serves to indicate thefirst action followed by the second action indicated (in this case) by theinfinitive. But this would be the same construction if it were in theindicative: hOI μετοξοι ελθοντεσ συνελαβοντο αυτοισ.>3. Why is this followed by a dative, not an>accusative?Because the verb συλλαμβανεσθαι (with prefix συν-) ordinarily takes adative complement (you can check this in a dictionary). Here’s λσψ onSULLAMBANW:βι. c. dat. pers., take pert with another, assist him, ou tois athumois hêtuchê x. σ.Fr.927, cf. ε.Med.813, Hdt.6.125, etc.; ta dunata têi polei x.Ar.Ec.861; s. tisi ti take part with or assist them in a thing, Id.Lys.540(lyr.), χ.Cyr.7.5.49, etc.; s. tini tinos ε.Med.946 , Ar.β.734 (lyr.); s.tini tini δ.18.20 : with a Prep., sunelabe gar alla . . es to peithesthaicontributed towards persuading, Hdt.7.6, cf. χ.Mem.2.6.28: abs., assist,α.Ch.812 (lyr.), σ.Tr.1019 (lyr.), Ar.Eq. 229, Th.1.118; dei dexullambanonta tous theous epikaleesthai while invoking the gods one musthelp oneself, Hp.Insomn.87.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityHome: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, μο 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
του hHLIOU EKLIPONTOSLuke 5:7
Luke 5:7 Stephen ξ. Carlson scarlson at mindspring.com
Tue Jun 19 00:06:04 εδτ 2001
Revelation 1.4&5 Revelation… At 09:10 πμ 6/17/01 -0700, Kenneth Litwak wrote:> ι have some questions on the first half of Luke>5:7:>και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοσ en τω hETERW πλοιω του>ελοντασ συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισ> >1. When is it legitimate to take the definite article>as a possessive? The first τοισ construciton is>clealry missing αυτων or the like, and ι‘m wondering>if the article alone is considered to do that job? In this case, the use of the possessive as in theNRSV’s “So they signaled their partners” is governedby English’s idiomatic considerations, not Greek’s.For exmaple, the αβ puts the “their” in italics,signaling that it was added to complete the sense ofthe Greek but not literally present.>2. του plus an infinitive is common, but what about>the aorist participle between the two? ι know the>parti8ciple can be used as an imperative, but as part>of a compound infinitive? Is it “to, afterhaving>come, help” or “to come and help”?It is a circumstantial participle, and its precisenuance has to be gleaned from the context. As atranslation, “come and help” is nice and idiomatic.>3. Why is this followed by a dative, not an>accusative?When συλλαμβανω means “to help out, aid,” theperson being helped takes the dative and theactivity in which the help is given, if expressed,takes the accusative. In Luke 5:7, the activityis implied.Stephen Carlson–Stephen ξ. Carlson mailto:scarlson at mindspring.comSynoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/”Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words.” Shujing 2.35
Revelation 1.4&5Revelation…
Tue Jun 19 12:18:13 εδτ 2001
Luke 5:7 Luke 5:7 Thanks Carl and others for your reply. ι‘m sorryabout the typo. ι got one response off-listsuggesting that ελθοντασ was simply the accusativesubject of the infinitive. All the other responsessee it as circumstantial or the like, and ι wouldn’texpect to see the accusative subject between thearticle and infinitive. . Could this be construedthat way, as the accusative subject? Since it isdescribing what Simon signalled, as opposed ot whatJOhn and James did, ι wouldn’t think so. Thanks.Ken__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.http://buzz.yahoo.com/
Luke 5:7Luke 5:7
Tue Jun 19 14:34:06 εδτ 2001
Luke 5:7 λοοκινγ φορ βοοκ At 9:18 αμ -0700 6/19/01, Kenneth Litwak wrote:>Thanks Carl and others for your reply. ι‘m sorry>about the typo. ι got one response off-list>suggesting that ελθοντασ was simply the accusative>subject of the infinitive. All the other responses>see it as circumstantial or the like, and ι wouldn’t>expect to see the accusative subject between the>article and infinitive. . Could this be construed>that way, as the accusative subject? Since it is>describing what Simon signalled, as opposed ot what>JOhn and James did, ι wouldn’t think so. Thanks.ι wouldn’t call ελθοντασ the acc. subject of the infinitive but rather acircumstantial participle governing the ιμπλιξιτ subject accusative of theinfinitive (if it were expresed, it would presumably be αυτουσ–but one ofthe most awkward features of Hellenistic Greek is the number offree-floating forms of αυτοσ/η/ον for which one must sometimes make purestabs in the dark to be sure what the antecedent is–although that’s notreally a problem here).– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityHome: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, μο 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Luke 5:7LOOKING φορ βοοκ
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 8 18:27:51 εστ 2008
[] εμβριμαομαι [] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) How does the Present Active πιμπλημι change to EPLHSANin the Aorist Active? The πλη– is obviously common,but what happens to the initial πιμ-? Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[] εμβριμαομαι[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7)
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) Sarah Madden sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
Fri Feb 8 19:00:32 εστ 2008
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) [] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) Mitch,My quick guess is that the double “π” is a reduplication, typical of MIverbs (cf. διδωμι), but the reduplication drops off for the aorist.Sarah MaddenMarylandsarah.r.madden at gmail.comOn 2/8/08, Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com> wrote:> > How does the Present Active πιμπλημι change to επλησαν> in the Aorist Active? The πλη– is obviously common,> but what happens to the initial πιμ-?> > Mitch Larramore> Sugar Land, Texas> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> — Sarahsarah.r.madden at gmail.comwork: 301.429.8189
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7)[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7)
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Feb 8 19:32:51 εστ 2008
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) [] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) On Feb 8, 2008, at 7:00 πμ, Sarah Madden wrote:> Mitch,> My quick guess is that the double “π” is a reduplication, typical of > μι> verbs (cf. διδωμι), but the reduplication drops off for the aorist.That’s precisely right; and the μ is a nasal additive that is common in present-tense stem formation as in τυγξανω (root τυξ) λαμβανω (root λαβ), λιμπανω (root λιπ, an alternative present tense to λειπω).> On 2/8/08, Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> How does the Present Active πιμπλημι change to επλησαν>> in the Aorist Active? The πλη– is obviously common,>> but what happens to the initial πιμ-?Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Sat Feb 9 06:56:22 εστ 2008
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7) [] εκεκραγον in 1 Clement 34.6 Thanks, Carl, for expanding my understanding about nasal additives. ι wastutoring some grad students this week (2nd semester Greek grammar) in simpleaorist formations and did not have a quick answer when they asked whyLAMBANW’s root is “λαβ” and not “λαμβ” — now ι can explain things a littlebetter to them.SarahMarylandsarah.r.madden at gmail.comOn Feb 8, 2008 7:32 πμ, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:> > On Feb 8, 2008, at 7:00 πμ, Sarah Madden wrote:> > > Mitch,> > My quick guess is that the double “π” is a reduplication, typical of> > μι> > verbs (cf. διδωμι), but the reduplication drops off for the aorist.> > That’s precisely right; and the μ is a nasal additive that is common> in present-tense stem formation as in τυγξανω (root τυξ) λαμβανω (root> λαβ), λιμπανω (root λιπ, an alternative present tense to λειπω).> > > On 2/8/08, Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com> wrote:> >>> >> How does the Present Active πιμπλημι change to επλησαν> >> in the Aorist Active? The πλη– is obviously common,> >> but what happens to the initial πιμ-?> > Carl ω. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > > — Sarahsarah.r.madden at gmail.comwork: 301.429.8189
[] επλησαν (Luke 5.7)[] εκεκραγον in 1 Clement 34.6
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” ajb1212 at ono.com ajb1212 at ono.com
Thu Mar 12 04:48:52 εδτ 2009
[] Luke 24:27 [] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” “και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοισ εν TWi hETERWi PLOIWi του ελθοντασ συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισ” (Luke 5:7a).ι take it that “του ελθοντασ” is purpose or a sort of indirect imperative. Is that correct? Why the accusative after “του“? Can someone point me to other γντ examples of this?Thankyou,Andrew ψ. BirchPalma de Mallorca, Spain
[] Luke 24:27[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ”
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” Sarah Madden sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
Thu Mar 12 05:14:31 εδτ 2009
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” [] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” Andrew —ι‘m hazarding a guess here since Greek word order is not always the way itwould be in English. Probably the του does not go with the ελθοντασ but withthe infinitive of purpose, του … συλλαβεσαι. The accusativeparticiple, ελθοντασ , seems to be acting more like a direct object to themain verb (κατενευσαν), but others on the list can be more explicit as tothe function it is performing.Sarah ><>Marylandsarah.r.madden at gmail.comOn Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:48 αμ, ajb1212 at ono.com <ajb1212 at ono.com> wrote:> “και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοισ εν TWi hETERWi PLOIWi του ελθοντασ> συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισ” (Luke 5:7a).> > ι take it that “του ελθοντασ” is purpose or a sort of indirect> imperative. Is that correct? Why the accusative after “του“? Can> someone point me to other γντ examples of this?> > Thankyou,> > Andrew ψ. Birch> Palma de Mallorca, Spain> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> — Sarah ><>sarah.r.madden at gmail.comwork: 301.429.8189
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ“[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ”
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Thu Mar 12 05:45:52 εδτ 2009
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ” [] Luke 2.25, 26 ην κεξῥματισμενον Birch egrapse> “και κατενευσαν τοισ μετοξοισ εν TWi hETERWi PLOIWi του ελθοντασ> συλλαβεσθαι αυτοισ” (Luke 5:7a).> ι take it that “του ελθοντασ” is purpose or a sort of indirect> imperative. Is that correct? Why the accusative after “του“? Can> someone point me to other γντ examples of this?του goes with συλλαβεσθαι and accusativeELQONTAS is the doer of συλλαβεσθαι. Infinitives can always haveaccusative ‘adjuncts’.In this case, the ‘coming’ has been ‘demoted’ into participle formso that συλλαβεσθαι has a natural prominencebetween the two verbal ideas.In addition, the aorist participle implies a progressionof first ελθειν then συλλαβεσθαι, just like when participles areused with finite verbs.for example, if these were finite verbs:ελθοντεσ συνελαβον ‘having come they joined the project’could be rewritten asHLQON και συνελαβον.The same relationship happens with infinitives.One could have upgraded ελθοντασ into an infinitive and producedTOY ελθειν [αυτουσ] και συλλαβεσθαι AYTOISThe accusative αυτουσ is optional in this rewrite since the doer isknown from the immediate context. ι added it for you to seeanother accusative with the infinitive(s).These structures are basic to Greek and are a model for how you willwant to be writing [or speaking 🙂 ] yourself. ε.g.John 1:48PRO του σε φιλιπον φωνησαι ‘before the calling in reference to you and Phillip’= ‘before Phillip called you'(it is from context we learn that the accusative σε ‘you’ is thepatient/undergoerand accusative Phillip is the doer of the infinitive ‘to call’. Thegenitive του is usedmerely to linnk the infinitive with the preposition here. In yourfirst example Lk 5.7the του was used with the infinitive to express purpose/intention.)ERRWSORandall Buth– Randall Buth, PhDwww.biblicalulpan.orgrandallbuth at gmail.comBiblical Language CenterLearn Easily – Progress Further – Remember for Life
[] Luke 5:7a: “του ελθοντασ“[] Luke 2.25, 26 ην κεξῥματισμενον