[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Wieland Willker willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de
Wed Jul 5 09:52:51 EDT 2006
[] John 1:1c [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN In Mk 6:45 we are faced with a difficult problem. Jesus forced his disciples to “go on ahead to the other side, to Bethsaida”. Bethsaida is on the east cost. But the feeding happened on the east coast according to Mt and Lk. In Lk it even happened IN Bethsaida. Also, in Mk 6:53 it is said (like Mt 14:34): ” When they had crossed over, they came to land at Gennesaret”. So, how to explain this? Of course the commentaries are full of speculation. 1. One is (Wohlenberger, Comm. Mk. 1910) to take PROS BHQSAIDAN as “(looking) to Bethsaida”. PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN=”go on ahead to the other side, (looking) to Bethsaida”Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?2. Another explanation is suggested by Klostermann and also considered by Th. Zahn, namely to take PROS BHQSAIDAN with the following EWS clause. I don’t see how this could be constructed though. Best wishes Wieland <><————————————————Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germanymailto:willker at chemie.uni-bremen.dehttp://www.uni-bremen.de/~wieTextcritical commentary: http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
[] John 1:1c[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Harold Holmyard hholmyard at ont.com
Wed Jul 5 10:42:59 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Dear Wieland,>In Mk 6:45 we are faced with a difficult problem. Jesus forced his disciples to “go on ahead to the other side, to Bethsaida”. >Bethsaida is on the east cost. But the feeding happened on the east coast according to Mt and Lk. In Lk it even happened IN Bethsaida. >Also, in Mk 6:53 it is said (like Mt 14:34): ” When they had crossed over, they came to land at Gennesaret”. >So, how to explain this? Of course the commentaries are full of speculation. > >1. One is (Wohlenberger, Comm. Mk. 1910) to take PROS BHQSAIDAN as “(looking) to Bethsaida”. > >PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN>=>“go on ahead to the other side, (looking) to Bethsaida”> >Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?> > >2. Another explanation is suggested by Klostermann and also considered by Th. Zahn, namely to take PROS BHQSAIDAN with the following EWS clause. I don’t see how this could be constructed though.> HH: Matthew states that they finally landed at Gennesaret, which was evidently on the opposite side of the lake from where the miraculous feeding occurred (Mt 14:22, 34). Luke suggests that Jesus retreated to Bethsaida, where he welcomed and fed the crowd. Mark emphasizes that he was in a remote place, and ultimately went across to Bethsaida. John 6:17 says that they started across the sea to Capernaum after feeding the crowd.ISBE says that thee has been dispute about the exact location of biblical Capernaum. The article on Bethsaida notes that there is conflict over the location of that place, and whether there is one Bethsaida or two. The last idea is due to this very problem you raise. If you have access to the modern ISBE article on “Bethsaida” by R. H. Mounce, it gives interesting arguments on both sides.HH: One tidbit is that Josephus used an expression similar to “to the other side” for a boat trip from Tiberias to Taricheae (3.7 miles), both on the west shore of the lake. It seems possible that Luke just gives general information, omitting that Jesus was not feeding the crowd in Bethsaida itself, but in a remote place in the vicinity of Bethsaida. Bethsaida and Capernaum are not that far from each other, so if the remote place was further east than Bethsaida, perhaps either Bethsaida itself or Capernaum could generally describe the disciples more western destination after the feeding.Yous,Harold Holmyard
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Wieland Willker willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de
Thu Jul 6 02:12:40 EDT 2006
[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Thanks HH, some good references! What I wanted to know specifically is this: > PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN> => “go on ahead to the other side, (looking back) to Bethsaida”> > Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?Best wishes Wieland <><————————————————Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germanymailto:willker at chemie.uni-bremen.dehttp://www.uni-bremen.de/~wieTextcritical commentary: http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Thu Jul 6 07:08:56 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Wieland:Just a thought here.Your translation takes PROS to actually mean “awayfrom” not “toward”. I would check PROS references forsuch a nuance, though I’m not very hopeful you’ll findone.Eddie Mishoe— Wieland Willker <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>wrote:> Thanks HH, > > some good references! > What I wanted to know specifically is this: > > > PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN> > => > “go on ahead to the other side, (looking back) to> Bethsaida”> >> > Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?> > > Best wishes> Wieland> <><__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Jul 6 07:46:47 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN PROS can certainly mean “near” or “in the vicinity of” or “next to.” Most fundamentally I think it means “in front of” or “facing” or “in the presence of.”Is there really any clear indication of where the feeding of Mk 6:35-44 takes place, other than that Jesus and his entourage got there EN TWi PLOIWI, KAT’ IDIAN EIS ERHMON TOPON (6:32)? It seems to me that the indications are not very clear, beyond a generalized sail “to the other side.” There’s quite a bit of crossing the lake in Mark’s gospel, and some have suggested (I don’t necessarily buy into the suggestion) that there’s a symbolic dimension of “east side Gentile, west side Judean” that’s particularly prominent in the two feeding narratives and episodes of Jesus asleep in the boat or not with the disciples as they sail in distress. It does seem to me that the geography of Mark’s gospel is less precise and exacting than the geographical indications of Matthew’s and Luke’s. At any rate, I’m not so sure there’s a significant problem here.On Jul 6, 2006, at 7:08 AM, Eddie Mishoe wrote:> Wieland:> > Just a thought here.> > Your translation takes PROS to actually mean “away> from” not “toward”. I would check PROS references for> such a nuance, though I’m not very hopeful you’ll find> one.> > Eddie Mishoe> > — Wieland Willker <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>> wrote:> >> Thanks HH,>> >> some good references!>> What I wanted to know specifically is this:>> >>> PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN>>> =>>> “go on ahead to the other side, (looking back) to>> Bethsaida”>>> >>> Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?>> >> >> Best wishes>> Wieland>> <><> > > __________________________________________________> Do You Yahoo!?> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around> http://mail.yahoo.com> —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Wieland Willker willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de
Thu Jul 6 08:36:47 EDT 2006
[] Psalm 46:6 in Septuagint and Hebrew 10:5 [] Another example of a qualitative QEOS Eddie Mishoe wrote: > Your translation takes PROS to actually mean “away> from” not “toward”. I would check PROS references for> such a nuance, though I’m not very hopeful you’ll find> one.BDAG gives one meaning for PROS as “with reference/regard to”. But the examples given do not really fit mine. For my case one would get: PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN= “go on ahead to the other side, with reference/respect to Bethsaida”My question is, is this (from the Greek) an acceptable understanding? One would have expected KATENANTI, EX ENANTIAS or something like that. Best wishes Wieland <><————————————————Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germanymailto:willker at chemie.uni-bremen.dehttp://www.uni-bremen.de/~wieTextcritical commentary: http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
[] Psalm 46:6 in Septuagint and Hebrew 10:5[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Thu Jul 6 09:00:32 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Wieland:I think Dr. Conrad is correct here (though more sowith a Dative); it can denote “in the vicinity of” or”next to.” But with verbs of going/leading/advancing,I think the PROS almost always denotes the directionTOWARD WHICH one is going/advancing, and I’m not sureI can think of PROS with the idea of AWAY FROM WHICHone is going (even in the sense of “with reference toX”). Can you cite one such example with a verb of motion?Eddie MishoePastor__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Harold Holmyard hholmyard at ont.com
Thu Jul 6 10:00:23 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] Psalm 46:6 in Septuagint and Hebrew 10:5 Wieland Willker wrote:>Thanks HH, > >some good references! >What I wanted to know specifically is this: > > > >>PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN>>=>>“go on ahead to the other side, (looking back) to Bethsaida”>> >>Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?>> >> HH: Maybe others will answer, too, but from my perspective it is not allowed. It seems plain to me that the PRO- with AGEIN and the PROS suggest similar ideas. The preposition phrase PROS BHQSAIDAN is adverbial and modifies the verb PROAGEIN. We cannot imagine another verb “looking back” and have it modify that, not when the words that are present do a perfectly good job of accounting for PROS BHQSAIDAN.Your,Harold Holmyard
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] Psalm 46:6 in Septuagint and Hebrew 10:5
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Robert Newman rob at designceramics.co.uk
Thu Jul 6 12:02:02 EDT 2006
[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS [] Another example of a qualitative QEOS Hello,The direction of the boat is EIS TO PERAN. Is it possble PROS BHQSAIDAN refers to the orientation of the shore on the other side, indicating that the shore is facing or toward Bethsaida?Just a thoughtRobert NewmanEddie Mishoe wrote:I think Dr. Conrad is correct here (though more sowith a Dative); it can denote “in the vicinity of” or”next to.” But with verbs of going/leading/advancing,I think the PROS almost always denotes the directionTOWARD WHICH one is going/advancing, and I’m not sureI can think of PROS with the idea of AWAY FROM WHICHone is going (even in the sense of “with reference toX”). Can you cite one such example with a verb of motion?Eddie MishoePastor
[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS[] Another example of a qualitative QEOS
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN Iver Larsen iver at larsen.dk
Fri Jul 7 04:28:13 EDT 2006
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN [] John 1:1c From: “Harold Holmyard” <hholmyard at ont.com>responding to Wieland Wilker>>WW: In Mk 6:45 we are faced with a difficult problem. Jesus forced his disciples to “go on ahead to the other side, to>>Bethsaida”.>>Bethsaida is on the east cost. But the feeding happened on the east coast according to Mt and Lk. In Lk it even>>happened IN Bethsaida.IL:I think these are questionable assumptions that may be caused by translating EIS by “to” when it often means “in thedirection of”. Although the details are not clear, it seems to me that this feeding of the 5000 happened away from thecities in the open countryside between Capernaum and Bethsaida on the north coast. I am aware that there is an oldtradtion going back to Egeria from the 4th century that it took place at Tabgha, a couple of miles southwest ofCapernaum, but I am not convinced that the tradition is correct. It is not supported by the gospel texts.Mat 14:13 says that they were heading by boat to an uninhabited place EIS ERHMON TOPON. The boat ride probably startedfrom Capernaum, but they sailed along the coast and did not get very far. Whether they sailed northeast or southwest isnot stated here, but lots of people were following along on the shore.Then in Mat 14:22 we hear that Jesus asked his disciples to go ahead of him (PROAGEIN) and continue the boat ride alonetowards the other side EIS TO PERAN. Normally I expect the river Jordan to be the borderline between “this side” and”the other side”, but Harold has given an example below where a similar expression apparently just means a journey byboat from one point on the shore to another. Bethsaida Julias would be “on the other side”, since it was just on theeast side of the river inlet. There were probably two Bethsaidas, one a small fishing village within Galilee on anisland in the Jordan delta, and the other the bigger city of Bethsaida Julias, east of the river about 2 miles upstream.That they were to go EIS TO PERAN (towards the other side), does not mean that they ever reached the other side. A bigstorm came up and blew them out of course so that they eventually ended up in Gennesaret, about 3 miles southwest ofCapernaum. (Matt 14:34, Mrk 6:53).I would be interested in hearing more research about PERAN in connection with a boat ride. Can it just mean “landingplace” or “the other part of the shore where the boat is supposed to land”?Luke 9:10 tells us that Jesus hUPECWRHSEN KAT’ IDIAN (withdrew to be alone). The next part of the text is in turmoil.The NA text says EIS POLIN KALOUMENHN BHQSAÏDA (in the direction of a city called Bethsaida). Bethsaida Julias was awellknown city, so this probably indicates that they went eastward from Capernuam without intending to reach the bigcity, which would not offer a place of solitude. Most mss talk about EIS TOPON ERHMON POLEWS KALOUMENOU BHQSAÏDA (anuninhabited place of/near a city called Bethsaida). I won’t go into the different readings and the merits of each one,but we cannot claim that Luke puts the feeding IN Bethsaida. Such a claim may be based on inaccurate and misleadingliteral translations like RSV, NIV etc. that say “he withdrew apart to a city called Bethsaida”. It is only the NLTwhich correctly translates EIS when it says: “toward the town of Bethsaida”. It never ceases to amaze me how manymisunderstandings are caused by literal translations that ignore the logic of the text and context.>>Also, in Mk 6:53 it is said (like Mt 14:34): ” When they had crossed over, they came to land at Gennesaret”.>>So, how to explain this? Of course the commentaries are full of speculation.>> >>1. One is (Wohlenberger, Comm. Mk. 1910) to take PROS BHQSAIDAN as “(looking) to Bethsaida”.>> >>PROAGEIN EIS TO PERAN, PROS BHQSAIDAN>>=>>“go on ahead to the other side, (looking) to Bethsaida”>> >>Is this interpretation of “PROS” allowed?IL: It is not clear what “looking to Bethsaida” means, but the EIS and the PROS in Mrk 6:45 have exactly the samemeaning.Louw and Nida discuss them in section 84.16 and 84.18:84.16 EIS extension toward a special goal – ‘to, toward, in the direction of.’84.18 PROS extension toward a goal, (with the probability of some type of implied interaction or reciprocity.)>> >> >>2. Another explanation is suggested by Klostermann and also considered by Th. Zahn, namely to take PROS BHQSAIDAN with>>the following EWS clause. I don’t see how this could be constructed though.IL: Agreed. That is nonsense.<snip>> HH: One tidbit is that Josephus used an expression similar to “to the> other side” for a boat trip from Tiberias to Taricheae (3.7 miles), both> on the west shore of the lake.<snip>Iver Larsen
[] Mk 6:45 PROS BHQSAIDAN[] John 1:1c