Philippians 1.10 D. Anthony Storm dstorm at 2xtreme.net
Fri May 21 00:50:52 EDT 1999
PLEIW in Matt 26:53 Keeping up with NT Greek after class I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive searchto provide me with meaningful responses.In Phil. 1.10 we read:EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTAGenerally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what isexcellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that youmay be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result ofyour testing”.In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we areourselves tested.Any thoughts?D. Anthony Stormdstorm at 2xtreme.nethttp://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm/
PLEIW in Matt 26:53Keeping up with NT Greek after class
Philippians 1.10 D. Anthony Storm dstorm at 2xtreme.net
Fri May 21 00:50:52 EDT 1999
PLEIW in Matt 26:53 Keeping up with NT Greek after class I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive searchto provide me with meaningful responses.In Phil. 1.10 we read:EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTAGenerally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what isexcellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that youmay be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result ofyour testing”.In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we areourselves tested.Any thoughts?D. Anthony Stormdstorm at 2xtreme.nethttp://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm/
PLEIW in Matt 26:53Keeping up with NT Greek after class
Philippians 1.10 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri May 21 06:29:42 EDT 1999
Keeping up with NT Greek after class PLEIW in Matt 26:53 At 9:50 PM -0700 5/20/99, D. Anthony Storm wrote:>I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive search>to provide me with meaningful responses.> >In Phil. 1.10 we read:> >EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA> >Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what is>excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you>may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result of>your testing”.> >In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are>ourselves tested.I don’t recall this particular question arising during the years I’ve beenon the list and it’s an interesting one.I’ve always assumed that hUMAS was the subject of DOKIMAZEIN and TADIAFERONTA the object, since one generally does see the subject accusativeof an infinitive precede the object accusative.If I read your meaning rightly, you are suggesting that hUMAS is the OBJECTof DOKIMAZEIN and either (a) that TA DIAFERONTA is the SUBJECT of theinfinitive or (b) that TA DIAFERONTA is an accusative of respect.My reaction is, first of all, to doubt that TA DIAFERONTA could be anaccusative of respect (which seems implicit in your “as to what isexcellent.” I really think that DOKIMAZEIN needs to have a subject. CouldTA DIAFERONTA serve as its subject? “so that what is excellent should putyou to the test”? I wouldn’t rule it out dogmatically, but that seems to meunlikely.In sum, the traditional(?) understanding of this phrase still seems to methe more probable one: “so that you may put to the test/proof (and therebycome to learn and appreciate more fully) the things that are reallyimportant (TA DIAFERONTA).Upon reading again and reflecting the question itself, the logic of theargument seems a bit stronger than I had thought–and YET, I still thinkthat DOKIMAZEIN needs a subject, preferably a personal subject, so that TADIAFERONTA could not serve as that subject; moreover, I don’t think we canmake DOKIMAZEIN take a passive sense. On the other hand, it seems to methat the sense you suggest is ultimately implicit in the fullness of theprocess encapsulated in this little phrase: if you keep on (progressiveaspect of DOKIMAZEIN) probing the important things, then they will becomeever more completely determinant elements in your character; it seems to methat this is consistent with the second half of verse 10, the notion ofspiritual growth continuing on until the Day of Christ, and consistent alsowith the image of verse 11, where the righteousness of Paul’s addressees isenvisioned as either ripe fruit on trees for the plucking or ripe grain inthe field ready for harvesting.Grammatically, however, I don’t see how hUMAS can be anything but theSUBJECT of DOKIMAZEIN. Sorry this note is so disjointed; it was written asI was thinking it through.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Keeping up with NT Greek after classPLEIW in Matt 26:53
Philippians 1.10 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri May 21 06:29:42 EDT 1999
Keeping up with NT Greek after class PLEIW in Matt 26:53 At 9:50 PM -0700 5/20/99, D. Anthony Storm wrote:>I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive search>to provide me with meaningful responses.> >In Phil. 1.10 we read:> >EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA> >Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what is>excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you>may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result of>your testing”.> >In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are>ourselves tested.I don’t recall this particular question arising during the years I’ve beenon the list and it’s an interesting one.I’ve always assumed that hUMAS was the subject of DOKIMAZEIN and TADIAFERONTA the object, since one generally does see the subject accusativeof an infinitive precede the object accusative.If I read your meaning rightly, you are suggesting that hUMAS is the OBJECTof DOKIMAZEIN and either (a) that TA DIAFERONTA is the SUBJECT of theinfinitive or (b) that TA DIAFERONTA is an accusative of respect.My reaction is, first of all, to doubt that TA DIAFERONTA could be anaccusative of respect (which seems implicit in your “as to what isexcellent.” I really think that DOKIMAZEIN needs to have a subject. CouldTA DIAFERONTA serve as its subject? “so that what is excellent should putyou to the test”? I wouldn’t rule it out dogmatically, but that seems to meunlikely.In sum, the traditional(?) understanding of this phrase still seems to methe more probable one: “so that you may put to the test/proof (and therebycome to learn and appreciate more fully) the things that are reallyimportant (TA DIAFERONTA).Upon reading again and reflecting the question itself, the logic of theargument seems a bit stronger than I had thought–and YET, I still thinkthat DOKIMAZEIN needs a subject, preferably a personal subject, so that TADIAFERONTA could not serve as that subject; moreover, I don’t think we canmake DOKIMAZEIN take a passive sense. On the other hand, it seems to methat the sense you suggest is ultimately implicit in the fullness of theprocess encapsulated in this little phrase: if you keep on (progressiveaspect of DOKIMAZEIN) probing the important things, then they will becomeever more completely determinant elements in your character; it seems to methat this is consistent with the second half of verse 10, the notion ofspiritual growth continuing on until the Day of Christ, and consistent alsowith the image of verse 11, where the righteousness of Paul’s addressees isenvisioned as either ripe fruit on trees for the plucking or ripe grain inthe field ready for harvesting.Grammatically, however, I don’t see how hUMAS can be anything but theSUBJECT of DOKIMAZEIN. Sorry this note is so disjointed; it was written asI was thinking it through.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Keeping up with NT Greek after classPLEIW in Matt 26:53
Philippians 1.10 Ian Rock irock at caribsurf.com
Fri May 21 07:42:26 EDT 1999
PLEIW in Matt 26:53 Keeping up with Biblical Greek The Rev. Canon Dr. Noel Titus of Codrington College was my Greek supervisor, and hewould always say EIS TO + INFINITIVE denotes purpose.Ian E. RockCodrington CollegeBarbados”D. Anthony Storm” wrote:> I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive search> to provide me with meaningful responses.> > In Phil. 1.10 we read:> > EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA> > Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what is> excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you> may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result of> your testing”.> > In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are> ourselves tested.> > Any thoughts?> > D. Anthony Storm> dstorm at 2xtreme.net> http://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm/> > —> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: irock at caribsurf.com> To unsubscribe, forward this message to $subst(‘Email.Unsub’)> To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu
PLEIW in Matt 26:53Keeping up with Biblical Greek
Philippians 1.10 Ian Rock irock at caribsurf.com
Fri May 21 07:42:26 EDT 1999
PLEIW in Matt 26:53 Keeping up with Biblical Greek The Rev. Canon Dr. Noel Titus of Codrington College was my Greek supervisor, and hewould always say EIS TO + INFINITIVE denotes purpose.Ian E. RockCodrington CollegeBarbados”D. Anthony Storm” wrote:> I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archive search> to provide me with meaningful responses.> > In Phil. 1.10 we read:> > EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA> > Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve what is> excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you> may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a result of> your testing”.> > In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are> ourselves tested.> > Any thoughts?> > D. Anthony Storm> dstorm at 2xtreme.net> http://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm/> > —> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: irock at caribsurf.com> To unsubscribe, forward this message to $subst(‘Email.Unsub’)> To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu
PLEIW in Matt 26:53Keeping up with Biblical Greek
Philippians 1.10 D. Anthony Storm dstorm at 2xtreme.net
Sat May 22 12:07:11 EDT 1999
Keeping up with NT Greek after class Earliest Manuscripts Comfort Ian,Thanks for your response. I’m not having trouble with the fact that thisconstruction denotes purpose. It is really the function of hUMAS, whether itbe the subject or object of the infinitive.>The Rev. Canon Dr. Noel Titus of Codrington College was my Greeksupervisor, and he>would always say EIS TO + INFINITIVE denotes purpose.>Ian E. Rock>Codrington College>Barbados>“D. Anthony Storm” wrote:>> I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archivesearch>> to provide me with meaningful responses.>> >> In Phil. 1.10 we read:>> >> EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA>> >> Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve whatis>> excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you>> may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a resultof>> your testing”.>> >> In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are>> ourselves tested.>> >> Any thoughts?>> >> D. Anthony Storm>> dstorm at 2xtreme.net>> http://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm
Keeping up with NT Greek after classEarliest Manuscripts Comfort
Philippians 1.10 D. Anthony Storm dstorm at 2xtreme.net
Sat May 22 12:07:11 EDT 1999
Keeping up with NT Greek after class Earliest Manuscripts Comfort Ian,Thanks for your response. I’m not having trouble with the fact that thisconstruction denotes purpose. It is really the function of hUMAS, whether itbe the subject or object of the infinitive.>The Rev. Canon Dr. Noel Titus of Codrington College was my Greeksupervisor, and he>would always say EIS TO + INFINITIVE denotes purpose.>Ian E. Rock>Codrington College>Barbados>“D. Anthony Storm” wrote:>> I apologize if this has been discussed, but I cannot get the archivesearch>> to provide me with meaningful responses.>> >> In Phil. 1.10 we read:>> >> EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS TA DIAFERONTA>> >> Generally this is translated something like “so that you may approve whatis>> excellent”. I was wondering whether the Greek could sustain: “so that you>> may be tested as to what is excellent” ie “be made excelllent as a resultof>> your testing”.>> >> In the former case we do the approving or testing; in the latter we are>> ourselves tested.>> >> Any thoughts?>> >> D. Anthony Storm>> dstorm at 2xtreme.net>> http://www.2xtreme.net/dstorm
Keeping up with NT Greek after classEarliest Manuscripts Comfort