Revelation 20:4

erasmus and rev. Kevin W. Woodruff cierpke at prodigy.net
Sun Sep 5 20:56:28 EDT 1999

 

3 questions erasmus and rev. Jim and others:I was always under the impression that Erasmus had in his work _Annotationson the New Testament_ (Novum Testamentum Annotationes) confessed (forgive meif my Latin is faulty):…quanquam in calce hujus libri, nonulla verba reperi apud nostros, quaeaberant in Graecis exemplaribus, ea tamen ex latinis adjecimus.”and that Erasmus called the manuscript his “exemplar vetustissimum”and that is the same manuscript that was rediscovered by Franz Delitzsch in1861 at Mayhingen in Bavaria, Germany in the library of the Prince ofOettingen-Wallerstein.KevinAt 05:58 PM 9/5/99 -0500, you wrote:>Colleagues, and Jim West:> >Could Jim tell us what evidence he has that Erasmus himself said he had>no copy of the Apocalypse when he was working on his first edition of>the GNT (1516)?> >The complete original publications of Erasmus, including his first edition>of the GNT, are no more than 150 feet from my private library study —>I don’t even have to walk up or down a flight of stairs — and I have in>the past read his own discussions of these matters, in his elegant Latin.>I am quite certain that Carlton and Clay are correct, and so is Metzger–>to wit, that Erasmus’ copy of the Apocalypse lacked the final leaf, and>that six verses (16-21) [only] were back-translated by him into Greek.> >But maybe that is a wrong recollection on my part, and Carlton’s and Clay’s>and Metzger’s. If you’ll give us the reference in Erasmus, I’ll check>it out tomorrow. And if you’re right, I’ll personally call Bruce and ask>him to credit you with the correction in his next printing.> > >Edward Hobbs> > >—————Jim West wrote————>>>>>>>>>>>> >Thanks for the clarifying notes regarding erasmus supposed possession of a>greek edition of revelation.>according to erasmus himself (and not metzger), he possessed no copy of>revelation when he was working on his edition of the NT- the publisher was>pressing him, so he made use of his vulgate and offered his own rendering.> >in following editions, perhaps, he acquired a greek text. but in the first>edition, again according to his own testimony, he had to make use of the>vulgate.> >best,> >jim> >+++++++++++++++++++++++++>Jim West, ThD> >—> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/>You are currently subscribed to as: cierpke at prodigy.net>To unsubscribe, forward this message to$subst(‘Email.Unsub’)>To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.Library Director/Reference LibrarianProfessor of New Testament GreekCierpke Memorial LibraryTennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404United States of America423/493-4252 (office)423/698-9447 (home)423/493-4497 (FAX)Cierpke at prodigy.net (preferred)kwoodruf at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate)http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm

 

3 questionserasmus and rev.

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 20 21:13:19 EDT 2008

 

[] Eis erga autou (Proverbs 8:22) in NETS [] Reading Greek Out loud It is not uncommon for words to be used with differing significance even in close proximity.  In fact, that appears to be a rather common practice which leads to the creation of puns in some instances (I am not suggesting such a practice here).  To impose what is perceived to be the usage of EZHSAN in Re 20.5 to its use in Re 20.4 is not only unnecessary but most likely incorrect..To say that the setting of Re 20.1-4 does not carry over into Re 20.5 ff has nothing to recommend it.  There is nothing in the context to suggest that there is a change of setting from the earth to the heavenly throne room.  In fact, the mention of the fact that they were beheaded because of their witness to Jesus and that they did not receive the mark of the Beast demands that the setting be on the earth.. georgegfsomsel.… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death..- Jan Hus_________—– Original Message —-From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; Jonathan Robie <jwrobie at mindspring.com>; < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:23:50 AMSubject: Re: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….—– Original Message —– From: George F SomselTo: Iver Larsen ; Jonathan Robie ; Sent: 20. august 2008 02:15Subject: Re: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….I don’t think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist.  It is not that they “came to life” but rather that “they lived.”IL: Whar arguments do you have for this? BAGD says:”of dead persons who return to life become alive again of men (3 Km l7:23) Mt 9:18; Ac 9:41; 20:12; Rv 20:4, 5″Noticr also the same word in v. 5, which can hardly mean anything than came to life.The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed everything is in the vision beginning with chapter 4.  While everything in the vision takes place in heaven, some things are more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in heaven, some things in the vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision are viewed as taking place on earth.  In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1 that.Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦKAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU.It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24 elders are in heaven.IL: Section 20:1-3 appears to take place on earth, but that does not carry over to the new section that starts in v. 4.Iver Larsen

 

[] Eis erga autou (Proverbs 8:22) in NETS[] Reading Greek Out loud

Help on Revelation 20 shella shella at cswnet.com
Tue Dec 21 10:25:31 EST 1999

 

Revelation 1:11 Debtor on Re: Revelation 1:11 Dear friends, this is my first post since joining up and I said then Iwas the new guy on the block. So, please do bear with me. I need somehelp on the following points:1. Is there any textual difference between the TR, the Majority Textand the Westcott-Hort texts on Revelation 20? I under stand there aresome differences between the TR and MJ texts, but are they greatdifferences from the WT on this chapter?2. Concering the reall issue, the plural 1,000. Why is it that weshould not trnalsate htis as 1,000s? I realize that there are someother place in the Greek Texts where the singular occurs, and it is1,000, so why not 1,000s here?3. I am in a friendly discussion with several persons on different listfellowships and the issue of the personal, yet future, 1,000 years fuleof Christ is going to come up. Many of the others on those fellowshipswill affirm that this translation must needs be 1,000 rahter than1,000s.Any help will be greatly appreciated. Debtor, Ron Pound.————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: shella.vcfType: text/x-vcardSize: 137 bytesDesc: Card for shellaUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19991221/3119d394/attachment.vcf

 

Revelation 1:11Debtor on Re: Revelation 1:11

Help on Revelation 20 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Wed Dec 22 08:12:04 EST 1999

 

philippians 2:6 Help on Revelation 20 On Tue 21 Dec 1999 (07:25:31), shella at cswnet.com wrote:> Many of the others on those fellowships> will affirm that this translation must needs be 1,000 rahter than> 1,000s. Dear Ron You will probably find that the answer is that CILIOS is an adjective, not a noun, and that it agrees with its referent, ETH, years: hence CILIA ETH in verses 2 thru 7. ERRWSQE Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm

 

philippians 2:6Help on Revelation 20

Help on Revelation 20 Jim West jwest at highland.net
Wed Dec 22 08:25:08 EST 1999

 

Help on Revelation 20 Blayney Revision of KJV At 07:25 AM 12/21/99 -0800, you wrote:>Dear friends, this is my first post since joining up and I said then I>was the new guy on the block. So, please do bear with me. I need some>help on the following points:> >1. Is there any textual difference between the TR, the Majority Text>and the Westcott-Hort texts on Revelation 20? I under stand there are>some differences between the TR and MJ texts, but are they great>differences from the WT on this chapter?Which verses do you have in mind???? >2. Concering the reall issue, the plural 1,000. Why is it that we>should not trnalsate htis as 1,000s? I realize that there are some>other place in the Greek Texts where the singular occurs, and it is>1,000, so why not 1,000s here?Because the number is seen as a “collective” and thus is singular. Oh sure,1000 is not just 1- but when a group or series is intended- the seriesitself is singular and not a group of series’s ( 😉 )>3. I am in a friendly discussion with several persons on different list>fellowships and the issue of the personal, yet future, 1,000 years fule>of Christ is going to come up. Many of the others on those fellowships>will affirm that this translation must needs be 1,000 rahter than>1,000s.Well thats just it- the “reign of Christ” of 1000 years is ONE event. Ergo-it is a singular idea and a singular item.Best,Jim++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDjwest at highland.nethttp://web.infoave.net/~jwest”This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put.” Winston Churchill

 

Help on Revelation 20Blayney Revision of KJV

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? Elizabeth Kline kline-dekooning at earthlink.net
Sat Nov 5 01:19:07 EST 2005

 

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? [] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? On Nov 4, 2005, at 8:54 PM, craig wrote:> I wonder if even the translation of the participle as “those who > had been> beheaded” maybe forces too much time aspect onto the meaning. > Perhaps it> should be just “the beheaded ones” (afterall, beheading probably > needs to> have a Perfect sense). Perhaps it could be used without reference > to WHEN> they were beheaded, only noting that the outcome that they were > beheaded. In> this sense it could be people at any time in history who were (will > be)> beheaded. John sees their souls.> > So does the Greek use of Perfect particple *necessarily* mean that the> beheading must occur before the thousand years?The short answer is YES. How can they reign on the basis of their martyrdom if they haven’t been martyred yet?There are problems with sequence here however:Rev. 20:4 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ᾿ αὐτοὺς καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς, καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν. καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.RE. 20:4 KAI EIDON QRONOUS KAI EKAQISAN EP’ AUTOUS KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS, KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TON LOGON TOU QEOU KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUK ELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWN. KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.The temporal sequence of this text has given pause to some scholars including R.H.Charles (ICC) and D.Aune (WBC). Anyone who tries to force a linear temporal framework on the Apocalypse is going to come to grief both with the macro and micro structure. This text is a case in point. Charles’ suggestion that cut and paste is required to make sense out of 20:4 is more a reflection on his limitations as a reader than on the text. He wants all references to reigning to follow references to martyrdom. But Aune points out that the Apocalypse doesn’t follow those rules but inverts temporal sequence in a number of places (cf. Rev. 3:3,17, 5:5, 6:4, 10:4, 20:4-5, 22:14).That is not the question you asked but it is a related issue.Elizabeth Kline

 

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN?[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN?

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? craig newsgroupstuff at people.net.au
Fri Nov 4 23:54:00 EST 2005

 

[] Holy Spirit John 1:33 [] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? Hi all. I’ve just got a question about understanding PEPELEKISMENWN PerfectPassive Participle.I wonder if even the translation of the participle as “those who had beenbeheaded” maybe forces too much time aspect onto the meaning. Perhaps itshould be just “the beheaded ones” (afterall, beheading probably needs tohave a Perfect sense). Perhaps it could be used without reference to WHENthey were beheaded, only noting that the outcome that they were beheaded. Inthis sense it could be people at any time in history who were (will be)beheaded. John sees their souls.So does the Greek use of Perfect particple *necessarily* mean that thebeheading must occur before the thousand years?At the moment I will try to keep from too much interpretation, and leave itat that question, just about use of Perfect Participle.Thanks!–Craig JohnsonBrisbane, Australia

 

[] Holy Spirit John 1:33[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN?

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? craig newsgroupstuff at people.net.au
Sat Nov 5 01:35:40 EST 2005

 

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN? [] Translating Mark 1:4 and 1:8 (revised) > > So does the Greek use of Perfect particple *necessarily* > mean that the > > beheading must occur before the thousand years?> > The short answer is YES. How can they reign on the basis of their > martyrdom if they haven’t been martyred yet?Hmm. Maybe I better tell you more of what I am thinking, so you can properlyevaluate…I think Rev 20:4 could be paraphrased as follows:”I saw there was in fact sovereign and authoritative rule (despite all thetrouble that is happening to Christians). And who should I see there buteven some of our Christians who had been killed for bearing witness toJesus. The same ones who remained faithful to God, despite the threateningsof the enemy. In fact, they have been alive and reigning with Christ for thewhole of the thousand years.”Instead of saying the reigning must occur after the beheading (or because ofit) I suggest maybe the reiging is just CONTRASTED with the beheading. Rev20:4 may well just be saying what Paul says in Eph 2:5-6 and Col 3:1. Eventhough Christians may physically die at the hands of the enemy, they alreadyhave a life that began before that which can never be taken away, and thatlife consists in ruling with Christ, over-ruling whatever the enemies ofChrist may do (cf Psalm 2).So perhaps I can say it like this: the emphasis is on WHO is reigning (= thebeheaded) not WHEN they are reigning (eg after beheading). Perhaps there isno intended time sequence in use of the Perfect Participle.Does the Greek allow for this interpretation? Otherwise is there a betterway to describe those beheaded, than using a perfect participle (I expectpresent participle would not make sense with such a verb)?(Actually I would see a similar usage in the Aorist participle of Heb 4:3PISTEUSANTES, emphasising WHO enters the rest, not WHEN the rest isentered.)–Craig JohnsonBrisbane, Australia

 

[] Rev 20:4 PEPELEKISMENWN?[] Translating Mark 1:4 and 1:8 (revised)

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue Oct 24 00:14:06 EDT 2006

 

[] “Grammatical Concepts 101 for Biblical Greek” [] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment I need your help clarifyRev 20:4a KAI EIDON QRONOUS KAI EKAQISAN EP’ AUTOUS KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOISWhat is basis of understanding KRIMA as ‘authority of judgment’ as inmost of English translations? (I wonder what would it mean by it.Are they supposed to judge people such as those dead ones as in 20:12? The saints may be priests but do we have any text supporting them tobe judges?) Is this understanding from Greek itself or from(scholarly) opinion?Someone suggested it as ‘judgment on them which is for their favor’.This seems plausible.Oun Kwon.

 

[] “Grammatical Concepts 101 for Biblical Greek”[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Oct 24 06:45:54 EDT 2006

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment [] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment On Oct 24, 2006, at 12:14 AM, Oun Kwon wrote:> I need your help clarify> > Rev 20:4a> > KAI EIDON QRONOUS KAI EKAQISAN EP’ AUTOUS> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS> > What is basis of understanding KRIMA as ‘authority of judgment’ as in> most of English translations? (I wonder what would it mean by it.> Are they supposed to judge people such as those dead ones as in 20:12?> The saints may be priests but do we have any text supporting them to> be judges?) Is this understanding from Greek itself or from> (scholarly) opinion?> > Someone suggested it as ‘judgment on them which is for their favor’.> This seems plausible.I suppose you got “authority of judgment” from BDAG #3: “action or function of a judge, judging, judgment” — if not, that’s where you ought to have looked and that’s where you ought to have begun your investigation, rather than in commentaries. KRIMA is a -MA nominal formation built upon the verbal root and a nominal element meaning something like ‘result/outcome of action.” -MA is from the same proto- IE root yielding like-meaning Latin verbal nouns in -MENTUM and -MEN. KRIMA is what hOI KRINONTES bring about, and for that reason KRIMA is what they do, the function that they perform.The odd thing, in terms of the Greek phraseology here, is the want of a subject of EKAQISAN beyond the implicit “they” of the verbal ending.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment Webb webb at selftest.net
Tue Oct 24 12:42:05 EDT 2006

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment [] a participle for TUGXANW Oun,I think that what you’re asking is ultimately an exegetical question and atheological question, but as far as the Greek goes, I think it is capable oftwo meanings and that it is probably is written intentionally to be capableof two meanings:”judgment was given in their favor”,And”the role of judging was given to them”.For my views in detail, see the section on Rev. 20:4-6 in J. Webb Mealy,After the Thousand Years: Resurrection and Judgment in Revelation 20(JSNTSup, 70; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1993).Webb Mealy—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Oun KwonSent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:14 PMTo: B GreekSubject: [] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgmentI need your help clarifyRev 20:4a KAI EIDON QRONOUS KAI EKAQISAN EP’ AUTOUS KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOISWhat is basis of understanding KRIMA as ‘authority of judgment’ as inmost of English translations? (I wonder what would it mean by it.Are they supposed to judge people such as those dead ones as in 20:12? The saints may be priests but do we have any text supporting them tobe judges?) Is this understanding from Greek itself or from(scholarly) opinion?Someone suggested it as ‘judgment on them which is for their favor’.This seems plausible.Oun Kwon.— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment[] a participle for TUGXANW

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Oct 24 14:43:12 EDT 2006

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment [] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment > On Oct 24, 2006, at 12:14 AM, Oun Kwon wrote:> >> I need your help clarify>> >> Rev 20:4a>> >> KAI EIDON QRONOUS KAI EKAQISAN EP’ AUTOUS>> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS>> >> What is basis of understanding KRIMA as ‘authority of judgment’ as in>> most of English translations? (I wonder what would it mean by it.>> Are they supposed to judge people such as those dead ones as in 20:12?>> The saints may be priests but do we have any text supporting them to>> be judges?) Is this understanding from Greek itself or from>> (scholarly) opinion?>> >> Someone suggested it as ‘judgment on them which is for their favor’.>> This seems plausible.What is this suggestion supposed to mean?The activity of judging (and authority to do so) was given to them, so these unnamed people sitting on thrones were to judge some unspecified people. It is likely that the author of Revelation is thinking of “judging” in a broader sense like in Hebrew, where a judge is basically a leader. The leaders we meet in the Book of Judges were not judges in our modern sense. I find it interesting that the verb BASILEUW occurs both in v. 4 and v. 6.> > I suppose you got “authority of judgment” from BDAG #3: “action or> function of a judge, judging, judgment” — if not, that’s where you> ought to have looked and that’s where you ought to have begun your> investigation, rather than in commentaries. KRIMA is a -MA nominal> formation built upon the verbal root and a nominal element meaning> something like ‘result/outcome of action.”Is there any difference between KRIMA and KRISIS? Both can apparently be used to indicate either the result (judgment) or the activity (judging).Iver Larsen

 

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment

[] Rev 20:4 KRIMA judgment Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Wed Oct 25 10:14:39 EDT 2006

 

[] Geetings [] Funk’s Grammar In summary,the text of Rev 20:4ff (in conjunction with 20:11ff) becomes lessconfused, when I cleared up my misunderstanding about the identify ofthe embedded subject of the verb EDOQH.I thought all along it must be ‘those who were executed ~’, henceunderstanding as ‘a judgment is given to them in favor of them’.Though the subject is not specified in the local text but it has torefer to the 24 thrones and the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 and 11:16. Thenit is obvious that these are holding authority/role of judging.Thanks to all.Oun Kwon.On 10/24/06, Webb <webb at selftest.net> wrote:> Oun,> I think that what you’re asking is ultimately an exegetical question and a> theological question, but as far as the Greek goes, I think it is capable of> two meanings and that it is probably is written intentionally to be capable> of two meanings:> > “judgment was given in their favor”,> > And> > “the role of judging was given to them”.> > For my views in detail, see the section on Rev. 20:4-6 in J. Webb Mealy,> After the Thousand Years: Resurrection and Judgment in Revelation 20> (JSNTSup, 70; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1993).> > Webb Mealy

 

[] Geetings[] Funk’s Grammar

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue Aug 19 11:10:31 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. 2008/8/19 Jonathan Robie <jwrobie at mindspring.com>> I think I misread this:> > 04 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους,> καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ αὐτούς,> καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς,> καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν> λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,> καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ> ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν·> καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.> > 04 KAI EIDON QRONOUS,> KAI EKAQISAN EP AUTOUS,> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS,> KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TON> LOGON TOU QEOU,> KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUK> ELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWN> KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.> > He sees the thrones, and people seated on them, and they are given> authority. καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (KAI TAS YUCAS TWN> PEPELEKISMENWN) ….> > In my mind’s eye, I associated these people with those seated on the> thrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who was> seated on the thrones (except that they had been given KRIMA). And I> have to admit, I still get confused about how to read KAI in> constructions like this. Is there anything in the language or context> that should make it clear that τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (TAS YUCAS> TWN PEPELEKISMENWN) are not the ones seated on the thrones?> > Jonathan> > Thanks for an opportunity go over this verse which has been one of the fewenigmatic ones in N.T.If I may stick my neck out first like this, it might be first to be axed ; -)This is my take:yes, to me, they ARE the ones on thrones.(On thrones, again in more figurative sense, same as ‘having givenauthority’. Without the article, it is not so much about their thrones assuch in focus, but their authority granted.)The core of the verse is” (A) KAI EIDON (QRNOUS ~ KAI TAS YUCAS ~); (B) KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN ~ “.(t~~ are all explanatory). Of course, (B) actually may function as an objcetof EIDON (what he saw).The clause about “those on thrones” tells something about those souls(people), though it is curiously (awkwardly?) placed beforehand as if aparenthetical announcement. Thus, I would like to take the KAI in thisparethetical clause (KAI EKAQISAN ~) as ‘even/yes’, rather than ‘and'(which has more for sequence of events).Towards the end of the verse, we fined the KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN (thesebecame to life and reigned). This must be a refrain of the earier phrase’they were seated and given authority to judge’. These people seems tocorrespond to those in 6:9-11.Oun Kwon.

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Jonathan Robie jwrobie at mindspring.com
Tue Aug 19 09:25:05 EDT 2008

 

[] solecisms John 8:9 EIS KAQ EIS [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. I think I misread this:04 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους,καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ αὐτούς,καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς,καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸνλόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν·καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.04 KAI EIDON QRONOUS,KAI EKAQISAN EP AUTOUS,KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS,KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TONLOGON TOU QEOU,KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUKELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWNKAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.He sees the thrones, and people seated on them, and they are givenauthority. καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (KAI TAS YUCAS TWNPEPELEKISMENWN) ….In my mind’s eye, I associated these people with those seated on thethrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who wasseated on the thrones (except that they had been given KRIMA). And Ihave to admit, I still get confused about how to read KAI inconstructions like this. Is there anything in the language or contextthat should make it clear that τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (TAS YUCASTWN PEPELEKISMENWN) are not the ones seated on the thrones?Jonathan

 

[] solecisms John 8:9 EIS KAQ EIS[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue Aug 19 11:16:40 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. My apology for typos: These should be ‘to go over’ instead of ‘goover’; (~~) instead of (t~~); ‘we find’ instead ‘we fined’; ‘Thesepeople seem’ instead of ‘these people seems’, etc.2008/8/19 Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>> > > Thanks for an opportunity go over this verse which has been one of the few enigmatic ones in N.T.> <clipped>>

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Aug 19 13:14:34 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. —– Original Message —– From: “Jonathan Robie” <jwrobie at mindspring.com>To: “” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 19. august 2008 16:25Subject: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….>I think I misread this:> > 04 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους,> καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ αὐτούς,> καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς,> καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν> λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,> καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ> ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν·> καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.> > 04 KAI EIDON QRONOUS,> KAI EKAQISAN EP AUTOUS,> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS,> KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TON> LOGON TOU QEOU,> KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUK> ELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWN> KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.> > He sees the thrones, and people seated on them, and they are given> authority. καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (KAI TAS YUCAS TWN> PEPELEKISMENWN) ….> > In my mind’s eye, I associated these people with those seated on the> thrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who was> seated on the thrones (except that they had been given KRIMA). And I> have to admit, I still get confused about how to read KAI in> constructions like this. Is there anything in the language or context> that should make it clear that τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (TAS YUCAS> TWN PEPELEKISMENWN) are not the ones seated on the thrones?> > JonathanIt does seem strange to me that these souls should sit down on thrones before they came to life – EZHSAN.Another option is to note that major participants in a book are often reintroduced simply by a pronoun or pronominal ending – “They sat down on the thrones.”I checked to see when and where the author has mentioned thrones in plural before. It turns out that these thrones are first introduced in Rev 4:4:καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένουςKAI KUKLOQEN TOU QRONOU QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES, KAI EPI TOUS QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROUS KAQHMENOUS.So, we have 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones around the great throne.The next reference to thrones in plural is 11:16:καὶ οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι [οἱ] ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καθήμενοι ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους αὐτῶν ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ τὰ πρόσωπα αὐτῶν καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷKAI hOI EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROI [hOI] ENWPION TOU QEOU KAQHMENOI EPI TOUS QRONOUS AUTWN EPESAN EPI TA PROSWPA AUTWN KAI PROSEKUNHSAN TWi QEWiNow the 24 elders go down from their thrones and prostrate themselves before God in worship.The 24 elders again fall down in worship in 19:4. Then in 20:4 we have the fourth and final reference to thrones in plural. John again sees those thrones and now some people sat down on the thrones – EKAQISAN rather than KAQHMENOI – and they are given authority to judge.>From the overall context of the whole book, I therefore suggest that the unnamed people who take up their place as judges/rulers on the thrones are the same 24 elders, who are major participants in the visions from chapter 4 onwards. This does not exclude that all those other people who came alive will take part in the rulership, probably under the directorship of the 24 elders, who again are under the command of Jesus himself.Iver Larsen

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Revdougpickrel at aol.com Revdougpickrel at aol.com
Tue Aug 19 14:10:47 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Hi Jonathan: Rev. 20:4 is the order of those from the first resurrection: thrones refers to the believers receiving their thrones as promised by Jesus, Rev. 3:21 “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftn2) ” The picture you should see here is: the main judgment seat on which the Father sits; to the right of Him will sit Jesus Christ upon His seat: to the right of Him seated on their thrones all those who have overcome the world through Christ. Doug. Rev. Doug Pickrel, Litt.D.Tejas ValleySan Antonio, Texas In a message dated 8/19/2008 8:25:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jwrobie at mindspring.com writes:In my mind’s eye, I associated these people with those seated on thethrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who wasseated on the thrones **************It’s only a deal if it’s where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 19 19:15:19 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. I don’t think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist.  It is not that they “came to life” but rather that “they lived.”  .I also would not equate those who are here represented as having been beheaded with the martyrs of Re 6.9-11.  In the throne vision which begins in chapter 4 we se the “crystal sea” before the throne and the bow as a nimbus around the head of “the one seated on the throne.”  This is a symbolic representation of the Flood where the “windows of heaven” were opened and God’s bow was placed in the sky as a promise that a flood would never again destroy the earth.  The use of ἶρις [IRIS] rather than τόξον [TOCON] as in the LXX of the Flood account is explicable by the necessity of distinguishing God’s bow from that of the first of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in chapter 6.  Furthermore, 1 Enoch begins likewise with the Flood.  This was something which was a part of the apocalyptic tradition.  This provides the historical retrospect which some have claimed is missing from the Apocalypse.  The martyrs of chapter 6 are thus those who were persecuted prior to the Flood..The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed everything is in the vision beginning with chapter 4.  While everything in the vision takes place in heaven, some things are more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in heaven, some things in the vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision are viewed as taking place on earth.  In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1 that.Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ KAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU.It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24 elders are in heaven.  It is further stated that those who sat on the thrones had not taken upon themselves the mark of the Beast.  It is thus the Church as a whole which lives although figuratively speaking they have been killed and these rule the earth..georgegfsomsel… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________—– Original Message —-From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>To: Jonathan Robie <jwrobie at mindspring.com>; < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:14:34 PMSubject: Re: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….—– Original Message —– From: “Jonathan Robie” <jwrobie at mindspring.com>To: “” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 19. august 2008 16:25Subject: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….>I think I misread this:> > 04 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους,> καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ αὐτούς,> καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς,> καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν> λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,> καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ> ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν·> καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.> > 04 KAI EIDON QRONOUS,> KAI EKAQISAN EP AUTOUS,> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS,> KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TON> LOGON TOU QEOU,> KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUK> ELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWN> KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.> > He sees the thrones, and people seated on them, and they are given> authority. καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (KAI TAS YUCAS TWN> PEPELEKISMENWN) ….> > In my mind’s eye, I associated these people with those seated on the> thrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who was> seated on the thrones (except that they had been given KRIMA). And I> have to admit, I still get confused about how to read KAI in> constructions like this. Is there anything in the language or context> that should make it clear that τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (TAS YUCAS> TWN PEPELEKISMENWN) are not the ones seated on the thrones?> > JonathanIt does seem strange to me that these souls should sit down on thrones before they came to life – EZHSAN.Another option is to note that major participants in a book are often reintroduced simply by a pronoun or pronominal ending – “They sat down on the thrones.”I checked to see when and where the author has mentioned thrones in plural before. It turns out that these thrones are first introduced in Rev 4:4:καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένουςKAI KUKLOQEN TOU QRONOU QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES, KAI EPI TOUS QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROUS KAQHMENOUS.So, we have 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones around the great throne.The next reference to thrones in plural is 11:16:καὶ οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι [οἱ] ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καθήμενοι ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους αὐτῶν ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ τὰ πρόσωπα αὐτῶν καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷKAI hOI EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROI [hOI] ENWPION TOU QEOU KAQHMENOI EPI TOUS QRONOUS AUTWN EPESAN EPI TA PROSWPA AUTWN KAI PROSEKUNHSAN TWi QEWiNow the 24 elders go down from their thrones and prostrate themselves before God in worship.The 24 elders again fall down in worship in 19:4. Then in 20:4 we have the fourth and final reference to thrones in plural. John again sees those thrones and now some people sat down on the thrones – EKAQISAN rather than KAQHMENOI – and they are given authority to judge.From the overall context of the whole book, I therefore suggest that the unnamed people who take up their place as judges/rulers on the thrones are the same 24 elders, who are major participants in the visions from chapter 4 onwards. This does not exclude that all those other people who came alive will take part in the rulership, probably under the directorship of the 24 elders, who again are under the command of Jesus himself.Iver Larsen— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue Aug 19 23:29:34 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. 2008/8/19 George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>:> I don’t think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist. It is not that they “came to life” but rather that “they lived.”OJK: It may be a good choice. However, there is no mark for temporalsequence in these verses. The descriptive statements are not to betaken as a sequence of events.<clipped>> who were persecuted prior to the Flood.> .> The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed everything is in the vision beginning with chapter 4. While everything in the vision takes place in heaven, some things are more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in heaven, some things in the vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision are viewed as taking place on earth. In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1 that> .> Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ> KAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU> .> It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24 elders are in heaven. It is further stated that those who sat on the thrones had not taken upon themselves the mark of the Beast. It is thus the Church as a whole which lives although figuratively speaking they have been killed and these rule the earth.> .> georgeOJK: Without the text specifying with THE thrones, here the text 20:4does not seem to open the same scene as Ch. 4. The setting is now ata final round up which doesn’t have much to do with 24 elders,whomever we interpret them to represent.No, those who were seated here has same meaning as ‘being givenauthority of judging, and those martyred are eminently entitled tothis position. These are to ones who take part of reigning (at the endof v. 4), yes, reigning symbolized by ‘being seated on thrones’. Thisis the group for the first resurrection. Then are two other groups (1)who are not found in the Book of Life to be hurled into the Lake ofFire, as their judgment were given to them based of the record oftheir work in life (of work-based religions); (2) those who are foundin the Book of Life (which the Revelation does not specificallymention) will received the second resurrection, which again the bookdoes not mention but not difficult to read from the context. Thisgroup is not same as those martyrs (20:4) – there is no reason not tobelieve the names of the martyrs be found in the Book of Life as well.This again the book has not dwelt on.As to judging and judgment, the setting of Ch. 20 is not for thejudicial process as such to determine who and how much they did. Thejudgment was already made for them by their own choice (Jn 3:18-19).Here, it is simply giving out whatever they have accrued and deserve.The judging by those will be like the men of Nineveh or the Queen ofthe South (Mt 12:40ff) to become witnesses to prove those guilty onesguilty. For this role of judging, does it need more than this? Itwould not require the involvement of higher echelon (such as 24elders). The role of the 24 elders is not specified in the Book.Oun.

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Aug 20 06:23:50 EDT 2008

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. [] Luke 2:11 and Cristoj —– Original Message —– From: George F SomselTo: Iver Larsen ; Jonathan Robie ; Sent: 20. august 2008 02:15Subject: Re: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….I don’t think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist. It is not that they “came to life” but rather that “they lived.”IL: Whar arguments do you have for this? BAGD says:”of dead persons who return to life become alive again of men (3 Km l7:23) Mt 9:18; Ac 9:41; 20:12; Rv 20:4, 5″Noticr also the same word in v. 5, which can hardly mean anything than came to life.The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed everything is in the vision beginning with chapter 4. While everything in the vision takes place in heaven, some things are more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in heaven, some things in the vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision are viewed as taking place on earth. In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1 that.Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦKAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU.It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24 elders are in heaven.IL: Section 20:1-3 appears to take place on earth, but that does not carry over to the new section that starts in v. 4.Iver Larsen

 

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….[] Luke 2:11 and Cristoj

[] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion …. Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Wed Aug 20 16:17:56 EDT 2008

 

[] Martyrdom of Peter 4:11 — “from this time” or “at this time” [] Eis egra autou (Proverbs 8:22) in NETS 2008/8/20 Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>> > —– Original Message —–> From: George F Somsel> To: Iver Larsen ; Jonathan Robie ; > Sent: 20. august 2008 02:15> Subject: Re: [] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ….> > > I don’t think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist. Itis not that they “came to> life” but rather that “they lived.”> > IL: Whar arguments do you have for this? BAGD says:> “of dead persons who return to life become alive again of men (3 Km l7:23)Mt 9:18; Ac 9:41; 20:12;> Rv 20:4, 5″> Noticr also the same word in v. 5, which can hardly mean anything thancame to life.> OJK: it is ‘they lived’ (KJV) = ‘they lived again’ ( EZHSAN = ANEZHSANAlford p. 732) = ‘they came to life’ (NET, NASB, many others). It’s samesense. They were martyred before. Now that ‘they lived’ has to mean ‘theylived again’. We just have to be less hung up on a precise sequence ofevents.> The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeedeverything is in the vision> beginning with chapter 4. While everything in the vision takes place inheaven, some things are> more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed inheaven, some things in the> vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the visionare viewed as taking place> on earth. In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1that> .> Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ> KAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU> .> It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24elders are in heaven.> > IL: Section 20:1-3 appears to take place on earth, but that does not carryover to the new section> that starts in v. 4.> > Iver Larsen> > —OJK: Yes,iIt is clear that Chapter 20 has two para-chronic scenes, narratedin alternating fashion: Paragraph 20:1-3 of the earthly scene is interruptedby a heavenly scene to continue on to 20:7-10; where as the heavenly scene20:4-6 is, after interruption, continuous to 20:11-15.However, that the thing is now on the scene of heaven does not tell byitself about the identity of those on thrones. It has to be solved fromother sources, namely:John has been meticulously saying ‘(twenty-four) elders’ and ‘four livingcreatures’ throughout the book: 4:4-6; 4:9-10;5:6-8; 5:11; 5:14; 7:11;11:16; 14:3; 19:4. In all occasions, along with the living creature, except11:16. Cf. one of the elders – 7:13. living creatures w/o elders – 6:1-7.He does not say who they are in this verse. Why doesn’t he mention them asthe elders here? If he meant it, he would surely have put ‘elders’ as anyother places he did. Also, I have not seen anything what John says about whothey are and what their role is. That would give a helpful to exclude themhere.Oun.

 

[] Martyrdom of Peter 4:11 — “from this time” or “at this time”[] Eis egra autou (Proverbs 8:22) in NETS