[] Rev 22:15 Pere Porta pporta7 at gmail.com
Thu Dec 24 13:41:17 EST 2009
[] Holiday blog post [] Rev 22:15 Hi, friends.Concerning Rev 22:15 I whish to put a question.The verse is often translated and commented as an “Expulsion Decree”. I evensaw an exclamation mark (!) put at the end of the verse to show that “dogs,sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves andpractices lying” are commanded to leave the city and so are expelled bysomeone from it…My question is: Is this a legitimate translation and understanding of thisverse?If all those are expelled from the town… this means they are within thetown and someone causes them to leave…But, is it logical to assume, think or say that dogs, sorcerers and so on…are IN the town?Can this verse be understood as an Imperative clause?Should it not be rather understood and translated as an Indicative clause,showing that this people kind simply remain out of the town, are excludedfrom it and the town doors are forever closed to them?Do you feel I’m right? Is there a real basis to understand the clause as anImperative one?Pere Porta(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
[] Holiday blog post[] Rev 22:15
[] Rev 22:15 Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Thu Dec 24 15:10:18 EST 2009
[] Rev 22:15 [] Rev 22:15 I don’t see this as anything to do with ‘command’ or ‘question’. Itsimply (parenthetically) describes the fact. “Those are who don’tbelong here and are no longer here.”Oun Kwon.On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com> wrote:> > Hi, friends.> Concerning Rev 22:15 I whish to put a question.> The verse is often translated and commented as an “Expulsion Decree”. I even> saw an exclamation mark (!) put at the end of the verse to show that “dogs,> sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves and> practices lying” are commanded to leave the city and so are expelled by> someone from it…> My question is: Is this a legitimate translation and understanding of this> verse?> If all those are expelled from the town… this means they are within the> town and someone causes them to leave…> But, is it logical to assume, think or say that dogs, sorcerers and so on…> are IN the town?> Can this verse be understood as an Imperative clause?> Should it not be rather understood and translated as an Indicative clause,> showing that this people kind simply remain out of the town, are excluded> from it and the town doors are forever closed to them?> > Do you feel I’m right? Is there a real basis to understand the clause as an> Imperative one?> > Pere Porta
[] Rev 22:15[] Rev 22:15
[] Rev 22:15 Pere Porta pporta7 at gmail.com
Thu Dec 24 15:18:04 EST 2009
[] Rev 22:15 [] Rev 22:15 Yes, yes, this is my thought too.I just wanted to verify whether my thought was right or mistaken.Thanks, Oun.Pere Porta(Barcelona, Catalonia, SpainOn Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:> I don’t see this as anything to do with ‘command’ or ‘question’. It> simply (parenthetically) describes the fact. “Those are who don’t> belong here and are no longer here.”> > Oun Kwon.> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > Hi, friends.> > Concerning Rev 22:15 I whish to put a question.> > The verse is often translated and commented as an “Expulsion Decree”. I> even> > saw an exclamation mark (!) put at the end of the verse to show that> “dogs,> > sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves> and> > practices lying” are commanded to leave the city and so are expelled by> > someone from it…> > My question is: Is this a legitimate translation and understanding of> this> > verse?> > If all those are expelled from the town… this means they are within the> > town and someone causes them to leave…> > But, is it logical to assume, think or say that dogs, sorcerers and so> on…> > are IN the town?> > Can this verse be understood as an Imperative clause?> > Should it not be rather understood and translated as an Indicative> clause,> > showing that this people kind simply remain out of the town, are excluded> > from it and the town doors are forever closed to them?> >> > Do you feel I’m right? Is there a real basis to understand the clause as> an> > Imperative one?> >> > Pere Porta> — Pere Porta”Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen”(1Cor 15:32)
[] Rev 22:15[] Rev 22:15
[] Rev 22:15 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 24 20:43:32 EST 2009
[] Rev 22:15 [] Rev 22:15 14Μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν. 15ἔξω οἱ κύνες καὶ οἱ φάρμακοι καὶ οἱ πόρνοι καὶ οἱ φονεῖς καὶ οἱ εἰδωλολάτραι καὶ πᾶς φιλῶν καὶ ποιῶν ψεῦδος.14 MAKARIOI hOI PLUNONTES TAS STOLAS AUTWN hINA ESTAI hH ECOUSIA AUTWN EPI TO CULON THS ZWHS KAI TOIS PULWSIN EISELQWSIN EIN THN POLIN. 15 ECW hOI KUNES KAI hOI FARMAKOI KAI hOI PRONOI KAI hOI FONEIS KAI hOI EIDWLOTATRAI KAI PAS FILWN YEUDOS. I have included the preceding verse as well since I think it is significant for the understanding of v 15. It is those who have cleansed their robes (which is a metonymy for their persons) who are authorized to ENTER the city which is the church of the Old and New Testaments. It is those who fall into the categories of v 15 who are to be excluded from the church. I see no indication that they were ever allowed to enter then expelled. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com>To: James Spinti <JSpinti at eisenbrauns.com>Cc: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <CLASSICS-L at lsv.uky.edu>; at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Thu, December 24, 2009 11:41:17 AMSubject: Re: [] Rev 22:15Hi, friends.Concerning Rev 22:15 I whish to put a question.The verse is often translated and commented as an “Expulsion Decree”. I evensaw an exclamation mark (!) put at the end of the verse to show that “dogs,sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves andpractices lying” are commanded to leave the city and so are expelled bysomeone from it…My question is: Is this a legitimate translation and understanding of thisverse?If all those are expelled from the town… this means they are within thetown and someone causes them to leave…But, is it logical to assume, think or say that dogs, sorcerers and so on…are IN the town?Can this verse be understood as an Imperative clause?Should it not be rather understood and translated as an Indicative clause,showing that this people kind simply remain out of the town, are excludedfrom it and the town doors are forever closed to them?Do you feel I’m right? Is there a real basis to understand the clause as anImperative one?Pere Porta(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Rev 22:15[] Rev 22:15
[] Rev 22:15 Pere Porta pporta7 at gmail.com
Mon Dec 28 01:56:12 EST 2009
[] Rev 22:15 [] Greek text and lexicon George and Oun,THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your kindness!Pere Porta(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)> 14 Μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ> τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν. *15* ἔξω οἱ> κύνες καὶ οἱ φάρμακοι καὶ οἱ πόρνοι καὶ οἱ φονεῖς καὶ οἱ εἰδωλολάτραι καὶ> πᾶς φιλῶν καὶ ποιῶν ψεῦδος.> > 14 MAKARIOI hOI PLUNONTES TAS STOLAS AUTWN hINA ESTAI hH ECOUSIA AUTWN EPI> TO CULON THS ZWHS KAI TOIS PULWSIN EISELQWSIN EIN THN POLIN. 15 ECW hOI> KUNES KAI hOI FARMAKOI KAI hOI PRONOI KAI hOI FONEIS KAI hOI EIDWLOTATRAI> KAI PAS FILWN YEUDOS.> > > > I have included the preceding verse as well since I think it is significant> for the understanding of v 15.> > > > It is those who have cleansed their robes (which is a metonymy for their> persons) who are authorized to ENTER the city which is the church of the Old> and New Testaments. It is those who fall into the categories of v 15 who> are to be excluded from the church. I see no indication that they were ever> allowed to enter then expelled.> > > george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > ——————————> *From:* Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com>> *To:* James Spinti <JSpinti at eisenbrauns.com>> *Cc:* Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <CLASSICS-L at lsv.uky.edu>;> at lists.ibiblio.org> *Sent:* Thu, December 24, 2009 11:41:17 AM> *Subject:* Re: [] Rev 22:15> > Hi, friends.> Concerning Rev 22:15 I whish to put a question.> The verse is often translated and commented as an “Expulsion Decree”. I> even> saw an exclamation mark (!) put at the end of the verse to show that “dogs,> sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves and> practices lying” are commanded to leave the city and so are expelled by> someone from it…> My question is: Is this a legitimate translation and understanding of this> verse?> If all those are expelled from the town… this means they are within the> town and someone causes them to leave…> But, is it logical to assume, think or say that dogs, sorcerers and so> on…> are IN the town?> Can this verse be understood as an Imperative clause?> Should it not be rather understood and translated as an Indicative clause,> showing that this people kind simply remain out of the town, are excluded> from it and the town doors are forever closed to them?> > Do you feel I’m right? Is there a real basis to understand the clause as an> Imperative one?> > Pere Porta> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > — Pere Porta”Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen”(1Cor 15:32)
[] Rev 22:15[] Greek text and lexicon
I rather do verse14.
Verse 15 , tells us plainly. , putting it plainly. If we live like verse 15 , if we are not living for the Lord, and living like verse 15 , well we have to change our life style to make it into Heaven and Desmond powers are are sorcerers is in the demon powers. Along with all other things listed. But He said And the Spirit and the Bride day Come, And let him who hears say Come, And let him who is athirst come. And whosoever will , let him take the Water of Life freely. So there is hope if they hear. And hear doesn’t mean , just listening. It means changing your life style by coming to Jesus and He warns not to add to or take away. Do what the Word says. John says the Word was God. So to me there is no startle of the fence. You are either in or out. Because you have to listen to what the Lord says. I don’t mean, you might not ever make a mistake. But I mean willful sinning. You know you are sinning and mean to be doing it. Well , I believe there has to be some repenting going on to be clearly listening to the Lord.
I don’t think it’s an expulsion decree it’s a demarcation decree. The righteous who are in Christ will have the privilege to enter into the joy of their Lord and the ungodly including those who played church will find themselves outside of God’s heaven in a not joyful at all setting of eternal judgment.
whats the difference ? Salvatore Tropea Sr
Expulsion means you are kicked out and the wicked were never inside the New Jerusalem. Demarcation is just distinquishing the Redeemed from the Lost!
Salvatore Tropea Sr you mean they are mixed together in the Millenium like a crowd to be ruled upon or what?
Troy Day Rev 22 is post Millennium.
Salvatore Tropea Sr so do you mean they are mixed together in the post- Millenium like a crowd to be ruled upon or what?
Rev 22:15 14Μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν. 15ἔξω οἱ κύνες καὶ οἱ φάρμακοι καὶ οἱ πόρνοι καὶ οἱ φονεῖς καὶ οἱ εἰδωλολάτραι καὶ πᾶς φιλῶν καὶ ποιῶν ψεῦδος.14 MAKARIOI hOI PLUNONTES TAS STOLAS AUTWN hINA ESTAI hH ECOUSIA AUTWN EPI TO CULON THS ZWHS KAI TOIS PULWSIN EISELQWSIN EIN THN POLIN. 15 ECW hOI KUNES KAI hOI FARMAKOI KAI hOI PRONOI KAI hOI FONEIS KAI hOI EIDWLOTATRAI KAI PAS FILWN YEUDOS. I have included the preceding verse as well since I think it is significant for the understanding of v 15. It is those who have cleansed their robes (which is a metonymy for their persons) who are authorized to ENTER the city which is the church of the Old and New Testaments. It is those who fall into the categories of v 15 who are to be excluded from the church. I see no indication that they were ever allowed to enter then expelled. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death
Revelation 22:14-15 Those who obey His commandments will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. The believer whose life has been characterized by obedience to God’s commandments will enjoy the tree of life (see comments on Rev 2:7 Rev 22:2), and the privilege of being able to enter the New Jerusalem through its twelve main gates (cf. 21:12-13). This does not mean that unfaithful believers will be excluded from entering the city; they simply will not have the honor and privilege of entering the city through the main gates (surely there will be other, possibly smaller, gates through which the others will enter).
22:15. There are also those who will never enter the New Jerusalem. They cannot enter because they are outside the city in the lake of fire (see comments on 21:6 b-8). The unusual term dogs refers in the OT to male prostitutes (cf. Deut 23:18) commonly found among Canaanite religious cults. In New Testament times Jesus and the apostles used the term to refer to enemies of God’s Word (Matt 7:6; Phil 3:2). John’s emphasis here is that sinners will never be part of the new earth and New Jerusalem; they will be excluded forever.
are you saying some will be saved by grace BUT will not enter the city because of works /???
Troy Day please read “This does not mean that unfaithful believers will be excluded from entering the city; they simply will not have the honor and privilege of entering the city through the main gates (surely there will be other, possibly smaller, gates through which the others will enter).” ie unfaithful believers may lose rewards in Millennium/ heaven, but never lose eternal salvation.
RichardAnna Boyce I read but was not clear Pls answer my question at your convenience Thanks
Troy Day unbelievers are saved by grace, through FAITH. Believers receive rewards in the Millennium, or a better entrance into heaven through the main gates by FAITHFULNESS; but never lose eternal security by faithlessness or loss of faith.
RichardAnna Boyce So are you saying some will be saved by grace BUT will not enter the city because of works /???
Troy Day no. Please read my comments. All believers enter by grace through FAITH. But believers will be the first to be judged according to their FAITHFULNESS; and will enter the city with varying degrees of rewards or ‘well done my good and faithful servant”
ie some believers may enter by minor gates; some by main gates
you STILL not answering IF some will be saved by grace BUT will not enter the city because of works /???
none as all enter. That is clear “unbelievers are saved by grace, through FAITH. Believers receive rewards in the Millennium, or a better entrance into heaven through the main gates by FAITHFULNESS; but never lose eternal security by faithlessness or loss of faith.”
RichardAnna Boyce Thats not what you said above
i said “Troy Day no. ” I am starting to believe you resist understanding what i am saying, as it might be too uncomfortable?
RichardAnna Boyce you said No what? It was not even yes/no question Come on 🙂 pick it up
i will leave it to others to read our chat and draw their own conclusions.
RichardAnna Boyce why not just answer it yourself? I would hate for others to control your story in the wrong way