1 Corinthians 14:16

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 17 22:16:28 EDT 2004

 

[] A proper introduction and a question [] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation EPEI EAN EULOGHiS [EN] PNEUMATI, hO ANAPLHRWN TONTOPON TOU IDIWTOU PWS EREI TO AMHN EPI THi SHiEUCARISTIAi EPEIDH TI LEGEIS OUK OIDENThe NET Bible translation has:Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit,how can someone without the gift3 say “Amen” to yourthanksgiving, since he does not know what you aresaying?Footnote 3 reads:3 tn Grk “how can someone who fills the place of theunlearned say ‘Amen.'”Can someone share with me how the “how can someonewithout the gift” comes from hO ANAPLHRWN TON TOPONTOU IDIWTOU PWS ?What specifically are the grammatical and syntactical(and perhaps even lexical) considerations that permitthis translation? Please understand I am notchallenging the translators. I am only trying tounderstand this translation, because it almost lookslike a “paraphrase” of some kind or another.Commentaries I have referenced (admittedly not manythough) had a hard time with TOU IDIWTOU, so I suspectthe “without the gift” must relate to this some how.=====Mitch LarramoreSpring Branch, TexasStudent/Memorial High School_______________________________Do you Yahoo!?Declare Yourself – Register online to vote today!http://vote.yahoo.com

 

[] A proper introduction and a question[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation Harold R. Holmyard III hholmyard at ont.com
Sun Oct 17 22:48:26 EDT 2004

 

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation [] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation Dear Mitch,>EPEI EAN EULOGHiS [EN] PNEUMATI, hO ANAPLHRWN TON>TOPON TOU IDIWTOU PWS EREI TO AMHN EPI THi SHi>EUCARISTIAi EPEIDH TI LEGEIS OUK OIDEN> >The NET Bible translation has:> >Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit,>how can someone without the gift3 say “Amen” to your>thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are>saying?> >Footnote 3 reads:> >3 tn Grk “how can someone who fills the place of the>unlearned say ‘Amen.'”> >Can someone share with me how the “how can someone>without the gift” comes from hO ANAPLHRWN TON TOPON>TOU IDIWTOU PWS ?> >What specifically are the grammatical and syntactical>(and perhaps even lexical) considerations that permit>this translation? Please understand I am not>challenging the translators. I am only trying to>understand this translation, because it almost looks>like a “paraphrase” of some kind or another.>Commentaries I have referenced (admittedly not many>though) had a hard time with TOU IDIWTOU, so I suspect>the “without the gift” must relate to this some how.HH: It seems like a paraphrase to me, too. You should read the BAGD entry on IDIWTHS. I will basically quote it. The entry distinguishes the IDIWTHS from the APISTOS, saying that the IDIWTHS is neither a full-fledged believer nor an APISTOS. Rather he obviously stands between the two groups as a kind of proselyte or catechumen, perhaps “inquirer.” In religious associations the term is used for non-members who may participate in the sacrifices. The closer relation which an IDIWTHS held with the Christian group, in contrast with an APISTOS, is clearly shown by the fact that he had a special place in the room where the Christians assembled.HH: I myself wonder whether there was really a section in the assembly earmarked for such people. Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable in Greek could address this issue. It seems that hO ANAPLHRWN TON TOPON TOU IDIWTOU could be an idiomatic way for saying “the person there who was an IDIWTHS.” It has the idea of filling a seat of course, but does the phrase really require a special seating section for such people?HH: Anyway, the NET translation seems to have sacrificed some of the specific information of the Greek in order to get a more basic idea across. The issue one might take with the NET translation is that the Greek seems to be connoting something of an outsider. A believer who regularly attended, even if he could not understand, might have the general Christian understanding to say the amen at the end, but such speech could be alienating to a visitor. To say “someone without the gift” seems too broad in the sense that it includes all the Christians, too, except a gifted few.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Oct 18 06:24:25 EDT 2004

 

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation [] Col. 1:5-6 At 7:16 PM -0700 10/17/04, Mitch Larramore wrote:>EPEI EAN EULOGHiS [EN] PNEUMATI, hO ANAPLHRWN TON>TOPON TOU IDIWTOU PWS EREI TO AMHN EPI THi SHi>EUCARISTIAi EPEIDH TI LEGEIS OUK OIDEN> >The NET Bible translation has:> >Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit,>how can someone without the gift3 say “Amen” to your>thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are>saying?> >Footnote 3 reads:> >3 tn Grk “how can someone who fills the place of the>unlearned say ‘Amen.'”> >Can someone share with me how the “how can someone>without the gift” comes from hO ANAPLHRWN TON TOPON>TOU IDIWTOU PWS ?> >What specifically are the grammatical and syntactical>(and perhaps even lexical) considerations that permit>this translation? Please understand I am not>challenging the translators. I am only trying to>understand this translation, because it almost looks>like a “paraphrase” of some kind or another.>Commentaries I have referenced (admittedly not many>though) had a hard time with TOU IDIWTOU, so I suspect>the “without the gift” must relate to this some how.Mitch, I think that you may find the Louw & Nida note on this word and itsusage in the text in question useful:27.26 IDIWTHS, OU m: a person who has not acquired systemic information orexpertise in some field of knowledge or activity – ‘layman, ordinaryperson, amateur.’ EI DE KAI IDIWTHS TWi LOGWi, ALL’ OU THi GNWSEI ‘perhapsI am an amateur in speaking, but certainly not in knowledge’ 2Cor 11:6.In 1Cor 14:16 IDIWTHS is used to refer to a class of persons whowere neither unbelievers nor fully instructed Christians, but who wereinquirers or catechumens. In such a context, IDIWTHS may be rendered as’ordinary, uninitiated’ (EPEI EAN EULOGHiS [EN] PNEUMATI, hO ANAPLHRWN TONTOPON TOU IDIWTOU PWS EREI TO AMHN EPI THi SHi EUCARISTIAi ‘when you givethanks to God in spirit only, how can an ordinary, uninitiated persontaking part in the meeting say “Amen” to your prayer of thanksgiving’).– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

 

[] 1 Cor 14:16 and NET Bible’s translation[] Col. 1:5-6

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