[bible passage=”Acts 19:39″]
Thanks for letting me join
I want people to check out this part of a letter I had written.
So now I want to read out of the New Strong’s concordance what it says on
” was used among the Greeks of a body of citizens “gathered” to discuss the
affairs of state, acts 19:39″
Strait out of the Strong’s Concordance, the very meaning that the word we
use “church”, was the people who met to discuss the affairs of the state. I
would fully expect the pacifists to be kicking and screaming when they read
this, but it is the truth.
Lets look at the example given.
Acts 19:38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him,
have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let
them implead one another.
39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be
determined in a lawful assembly.
The words “lawful assembly” are used instead of the word “church,” because
“ekklesia” is the Greek word used here. The King James Version decided to
change the word for some reason, whatever that reason is the end result is
the reader does not understand that the church (ekklesia) was actually the
governing body in important matters as such. Lets back up a few verses to
better understand what was going on here.
Acts 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men
of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the
Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which
fell down from Jupiter?
36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be
quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of
churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
Paul, the apostles, and some friends were in some danger untill this town
clerk spoke up, these were complete heathens, worshipping an object that
they think fell from Jupiter, alright. However they already had an
“ekklesia” or a church, which did more than worship their Goddess, they were
the ones who were to gather and decide if Paul and the apostles should face
charges. The “ekklesia” (church) was already an established Greek word used
by Jews and heathens alike, but defining a much greater function than what
people recognize today. There is no way around this example given here, we
have slowly in the coarse of time lost the full meaning of what the
“ekklesia” (church) was, and what it is suppose to be today.
Think about this for a minute now, why would our God set up his church to be
a body of people completely separated from positions of authority and power,
and at the mercy of a handful of heathen rulers, most certain to oppress his
How could God be giving instructions to follow his statutes and judgments
throughout the bible if we (his ekklesia) have no authority to establish
them, and then no knowledge about the specifics of how these things work?
With our Christian churches today silent on all lawful matters that effect
the welfare of the people, there is no way to prevent a system of oppression
from taking shape.
Here is the first time “ekklesia” is used in the bible, Christ speaking.
Mathew 16:18 (Moffatt’s translation) Now I tell you, Peter is your name, and
on this rock I will build my church; the powers of Hades shall not succeed
Christ’s church was to prevail over the powers of Hades, and did for nearly
two thousand years, but we are now in the time where a lack of knowledge,
and a great falling away, will give the coming beast system, power over the
saints. This will be the end of it all, and Christ will have to return
because we have allowed evil to prevail over us (the ekklesia).
I know how most Christians today are believing that this is speaking of the
Hades succeeding over us in the after life. This is not the message given
here, for it is not describing us going to Hades, it is speaking of the
power of Hades not succeeding over Christ’s church, which is here on earth.
The next verse reveals much more.
19 I will give you the keys of the realm of heaven; Whatever you prohibit on
earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be
permitted in heaven.”
I want to read this one back to you in my words.
Christ is giving Peter and the church the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and
whatever we decide to prohibit here on earth, God in heaven will prohibit as
well, or help us to prohibit it, because we do nothing on our own. Whatever
we permit here on earth, God in heaven will permit to happen as well, he is
not going to stop it, if we don’t work to stop it. We have the keys to the
kingdom of heaven, for we accomplish nothing on our own without the help of
God in the heavens, but the decision is ours.
If we decide we will not oppose the evils of Communism overrunning Gods
people and his church, and the nation, Gods not going to give us divine
protection, if we don’t work towards this ourselves. We have the keys.
Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his
This lesson here fits right in with the teaching that the kingdom of heaven,
is both on earth and in heaven above, many scriptures show this to be true.
Moffatt’s calls the “kingdom” of heaven the “realm” of heaven.
Mathew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
I may as well bring out the one argument that most often comes up on this
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom
were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
This certainly looks like the pacifists have some good clear language
explaining that Gods kingdom is not here on earth, and because of that we
are not to fight for any kingdom on earth. There is however, a major
mistranslation, which has distorted the entire meaning of the verse, and it
is the word “world.” The Greek word was “kosmos” and the root meaning is
“order” or “arrangement,” and many times used as the order or arrangement of
the world or the universe.
This is now out of the Strong’s concordance:
“Summary Kosmos is first a harmonious arrangement or order, then by
extension adornment or decoration, and came to denote the world, or the
universe, as that which is divinely arranged.”
It came to mean anyone not of the ekklasia (1577). Kosmos, primarily,
“order, arrangement, ornament, adornment,”
The “church,” can be excluded from the overall scope of this word as well,
and this would be a 2nd definition that this word can have. We have an
English word that would fit this 2nd definition and that word is “secular,”
which is many times referred to as the “secular world,” this would fit in
with the line “my kingdom is not of this secular world.” No doubt also the
line, “my kingdom is not of this world order,” fits very well to, or
arrangement. I think that the last line, “but now is my kingdom not from
hence” (this) explains that one day Christ’s kingdom will be the order of
things, or it would be here and controlling the secular world some day, and
then his servants will fight. The key word is the word now. If the
pacifist ever comes to understand that Gods kingdom is here on earth, he
then has to realize that we are to fight to keep it.
I think this post probably goes way beyond the charter: we are supposed
to be discussing Greek, not theology. However, let me point out that words have
a semantic range: EKKLHSIA means simply assembly, and can refer either to a
secular gathering, or to God’s people, hence what in English we normally mean by
the word “church.”
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Yes, we are aware that EKKLHSIA can mean a secular governing body. If
you would check various translations, you would find that they do
translate this as “assembly” in certain cases. Where it clearly pertains
to the church, however, they use the time-honored designation “church.”
That it may be used for a governing body of the POLIS is simply a
reflection of the fact that these terms are not utterly divorced from the
lives of the people to whom these letters were written and to whom the
apostles preached. It is not “Holy Ghost Greek.”
A note regarding your post. We are here to discuss Greek —
specifically Biblical Greek which is generally inclusive of the
Septuagint, NT, and the Church Fathers. One subject that is generally
taboo is doctrine or special pleading for a position since we have many
members who hold various positions. It is generally best to deal with
one or two specific passage (if the two are related) and to cite your
passage when you post.
I would also encourage you to get a better Greek lexicon. The standard
for NT Greek studies is Baur, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich, _A Greek-English
Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature_. It
isn’t cheap, but I would advise you to “go, sell what you have [and
purchase one] and you will have” a reliable reference work.
I am new here and I did not now what is to be discussed and what is not to
be discussed. It seems to me that if we just limit our research to Greek
words and do not apply it first to a passage, and then to a bigger Idea, or
possition with explanation, formulating an opinion just because someone
might disagree or be offended, than I think we are caving in to those who do
not have the love of truth, sincerely.
I do have many other Greek tools than what I had showed earlier.
I will focus on the word Ekklesia
I have bibles translating this word ekklesia as “assembly,” Rotherham’s
Version is one of them, this is not the meaning of the Greek word used, it
is an incorrect translation,as is the word “church.”
I am not claiming that EKKLESIA can mean a “secular governing body”, I can
not find any other definition given for this word prior to Jesus Christ
using it in the New Testament, and when he used it for the first time it was
no longer going to be secular.
There has been a mistranslation with the word “church” in the New Testament
“The English dictionary reveals that the English word “church” which is used
in our English Bible is taken from the late Greek word “kyridakon” not
“ekklesia.” The Greek word “kyridakon” is not found in the New Testament and
only came into being in the 16th Century long after New Testament times.
Thus the English word “church” cannot be translated back into Greek because
there is no word in the New Testament Greek that is the equivalent of the
understanding of the English word.”
Liddell and Scott show quite clearly that at Athens, the word was employed
as follows: “an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative
In Greek culture, an ekklesia was a political assembly. By the fifth century
B.C. ekklesia had come to mean an official gathering of the full citizens of
a Greek city-state (polis) who were called together to make political and
judicial decisions. The Greeks never used ekklesia to refer to religious
Expository Dictionary Of Bible Words, by Lawrence O. Richards, Zondervan
Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI)
Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church (ekklesia)
together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them,
You don’t gather something together that supposedly already means a
“gathering,” or an “assembly.” What they are trying to make this word out
to be is impossible
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church (ekklesia) of the
firstborn, which are written in heaven,
They are trying to claim that the word ekklesia means “assembly” only, and
then there was another general assembly? Well, the ekklesia was the
“legislative assembly” or the “body politic” those of whom were qualified to
vote, “the called out ones” or the “elders,” and then there was the rest of
the people, the general assembly (family or friends),
An ekklesia or ‘calling out’ was not just an assembly. The words agora and
paneguris as well as heorte, koinon, thiasos, sunagoge and sunago can all
mean an assembly.
The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites (eds. Marian Holland
McAllister, Richard Stillwell, William L. MacDonald) alphabetic letter A
With the new division, the membership of the boule was increased to 500, 50
from each tribe. The boule prepared drafts of the laws which were debated
and ratified by the ekklesia, which had become the sovereign body.
Can anyone show me a different meaning that this word had at the time?
In the LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures the word QHL for the
congregation of Israel is fairly consistently translated by the Greek
EKKLHSIA. Joel 2.16
SUNAGETE LAON, hAGIAZASQE EKKLHSIAN, EKLECASQE PRESBUTEROUS, SUNAGETE
NHPIA QHLAZONTA MATOUS, ECELQATW NUMFIOS EK TOU KOPWNOS AUTOU KAI NUMFH
EK TOU PASTOU AUTHS.
Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Collect the elders,
Gather the babes nursing at the breast,
Let the bridegroom come from his bedroom
And the bride from her chamber.
Here EKKLHSIAN = “congregation”
As regards your statement that “if we just limit our research to Greek
words and do not apply it first to a passage, and then to a bigger Idea,
or possition with explanation, formulating an opinion just because
someone might disagree or be offended, than I think we are caving in to
those who do not have the love of truth”, we limit ourselves to the first
part of your progression for the most part sometimes slipping into the
second, but we always let each member form his own opinion regarding how
this applies to his general viewpoint. I.e., we try to limit ourselves
to what the meaning of a passage might be and sometimes what a concept
might mean generally in the NT. This involves not only the lexical
meaning of words but also the syntactical relationships within the
passage and how they affect the meaning. Is it the “love of the truth”
you seek or the “love of YOUR OWN ‘truth'”?