Hebrews 6:20

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Tom Conry tomconry at mediaone.net
Wed May 26 13:16:14 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 Gospel of Peter 10 This may be a bit off topic but I can’t think of a better group of folksto ask, andI’m kind of up against a deadline, so any kind of helpful pointer wouldbe most . . .ummh, helpful!I’m writing a paper which focuses on the range of possible meaningsinvoked byPRODROMOS in Heb 6:20. I’ve gone through the LXX (Num 13:21 firstfruit; Isa 28:4figs; Wis 12:8 wasps) and have done some work with the TLG – it’s alsoused of winds(Aristotle, Theophrastus, Pliny, Columella) and messengers (Herodotus),of scouts(Polybius) and ships (Alciphron). Later Christian writers tend to useit inconnection with John the Baptizer.Specifically, I’m intrigued by the proximity of PRODROMOS in Hebrews6:20 to theexpression EIS TO ESWTERON TOU KATAPETASMATO in the preceding verse(6:19). I’mtrying to determine the stories that are being brought into play here.My questionhas to do with something I dimly remember about either Pompey or Titus(I told you,”dimly”) going into the Temple (either the 63 BCE campaign or the 70 CEcampaign) andgoing into the Holy of Holies, going “behind the curtain” expecting tofind greatriches and finding only an empty room.My memory is contradicted in part by Josephus (Antiquities 14.4.4 andWars 1.7.6)which tells of Pompey finding candlesticks with its lamps (I suppose theones on theArch of Titus perhaps?) and the table, pouring vessels, censers all ofgold, spices,and two thousand talents in cash – hardly nothing at all! – althoughJosephus saysthat Pompey took none of it.Do any of you know from where I might remember this incident of a Romanconquerorgoing “behind the veil” and expecting to find something priceless andfinding nothingat all? Or am I simply spinning something out of Indiana Jones here?Needless to say, any comments on PRODROMOS here are welcome. I haveread OttoBauernfeind’s article in the TDNT and the BAGD. Perhaps others havesome wisdom?Thanks.Tom Conry

Gospel of Peter 10Gospel of Peter 10

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Tom Conry tomconry at mediaone.net
Wed May 26 13:16:14 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 Gospel of Peter 10 This may be a bit off topic but I can’t think of a better group of folksto ask, andI’m kind of up against a deadline, so any kind of helpful pointer wouldbe most . . .ummh, helpful!I’m writing a paper which focuses on the range of possible meaningsinvoked byPRODROMOS in Heb 6:20. I’ve gone through the LXX (Num 13:21 firstfruit; Isa 28:4figs; Wis 12:8 wasps) and have done some work with the TLG – it’s alsoused of winds(Aristotle, Theophrastus, Pliny, Columella) and messengers (Herodotus),of scouts(Polybius) and ships (Alciphron). Later Christian writers tend to useit inconnection with John the Baptizer.Specifically, I’m intrigued by the proximity of PRODROMOS in Hebrews6:20 to theexpression EIS TO ESWTERON TOU KATAPETASMATO in the preceding verse(6:19). I’mtrying to determine the stories that are being brought into play here.My questionhas to do with something I dimly remember about either Pompey or Titus(I told you,”dimly”) going into the Temple (either the 63 BCE campaign or the 70 CEcampaign) andgoing into the Holy of Holies, going “behind the curtain” expecting tofind greatriches and finding only an empty room.My memory is contradicted in part by Josephus (Antiquities 14.4.4 andWars 1.7.6)which tells of Pompey finding candlesticks with its lamps (I suppose theones on theArch of Titus perhaps?) and the table, pouring vessels, censers all ofgold, spices,and two thousand talents in cash – hardly nothing at all! – althoughJosephus saysthat Pompey took none of it.Do any of you know from where I might remember this incident of a Romanconquerorgoing “behind the veil” and expecting to find something priceless andfinding nothingat all? Or am I simply spinning something out of Indiana Jones here?Needless to say, any comments on PRODROMOS here are welcome. I haveread OttoBauernfeind’s article in the TDNT and the BAGD. Perhaps others havesome wisdom?Thanks.Tom Conry

Gospel of Peter 10Gospel of Peter 10

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Kevin L. Barney klbarney at yahoo.com
Wed May 26 15:13:27 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 Christian Hi, TomYou should probably focus your search on Pompey rather than Titus.There is an allusion to the story you are thinking of on the following url:http://www.joshuanet.org/israel/history.htmwhich says “Pompey brazenly enters Holy of Holies, disappointed to find it empty.” Unfortunately, this timeline does not give a source.A slightly different take is suggested by a footnote to a volume in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series that reads: “n. 84 In 63 b.c., when Pompey’s curiousity led him to penetrate into the Holy of Holies. He was much impressed, however, by its simplicity, and went away without disturbing its treasure, wondering at a religion which had no visible God.”(Unfortunately, the web page (the Wheaton College Church Fathers site) was designed poorly, so I couldn’t link from the note to the text it belonged to.)Kevin L. BarneyHoffman Estates, Illinoisklbarney at yahoo.com

Gospel of Peter 10Christian

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Kevin L. Barney klbarney at yahoo.com
Wed May 26 15:13:27 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 Christian Hi, TomYou should probably focus your search on Pompey rather than Titus.There is an allusion to the story you are thinking of on the following url:http://www.joshuanet.org/israel/history.htmwhich says “Pompey brazenly enters Holy of Holies, disappointed to find it empty.” Unfortunately, this timeline does not give a source.A slightly different take is suggested by a footnote to a volume in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series that reads: “n. 84 In 63 b.c., when Pompey’s curiousity led him to penetrate into the Holy of Holies. He was much impressed, however, by its simplicity, and went away without disturbing its treasure, wondering at a religion which had no visible God.”(Unfortunately, the web page (the Wheaton College Church Fathers site) was designed poorly, so I couldn’t link from the note to the text it belonged to.)Kevin L. BarneyHoffman Estates, Illinoisklbarney at yahoo.com

Gospel of Peter 10Christian

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Wed May 26 16:01:23 EDT 1999

Christian “Christian” in 1 Peter 4:16 At 13:16 26/05/99 -0400, you wrote:> >I’m writing a paper which focuses on the range of possible meanings>invoked by>PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20. I’ve gone through the LXX (Num 13:21 first>fruit; Isa 28:4>figs; Wis 12:8 wasps) and have done some work with the TLG – it’s also>used of winds>(Aristotle, Theophrastus, Pliny, Columella) and messengers (Herodotus),>of scouts>(Polybius) and ships (Alciphron). Later Christian writers tend to use>it in>connection with John the Baptizer.> Tom:Westcott, in his commentary ( Eerdmans’ reprint 1984)writes:”The word PRODROMOS was used especially of the men or troops which weresent to explore before the advance of an army. Comp. Wisdom 12:8 (Ex. 23:28 )The EDNT in addition has a reference to Polybius 12.20.7Hope this helps.MauriceMaurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie

Christian”Christian” in 1 Peter 4:16

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Wed May 26 16:01:23 EDT 1999

Christian “Christian” in 1 Peter 4:16 At 13:16 26/05/99 -0400, you wrote:> >I’m writing a paper which focuses on the range of possible meanings>invoked by>PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20. I’ve gone through the LXX (Num 13:21 first>fruit; Isa 28:4>figs; Wis 12:8 wasps) and have done some work with the TLG – it’s also>used of winds>(Aristotle, Theophrastus, Pliny, Columella) and messengers (Herodotus),>of scouts>(Polybius) and ships (Alciphron). Later Christian writers tend to use>it in>connection with John the Baptizer.> Tom:Westcott, in his commentary ( Eerdmans’ reprint 1984)writes:”The word PRODROMOS was used especially of the men or troops which weresent to explore before the advance of an army. Comp. Wisdom 12:8 (Ex. 23:28 )The EDNT in addition has a reference to Polybius 12.20.7Hope this helps.MauriceMaurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie

Christian”Christian” in 1 Peter 4:16

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Steve Long steve at allegrographics.com
Wed May 26 17:43:23 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 > >Specifically, I’m intrigued by the proximity of PRODROMOS in Hebrews>6:20 to the>expression EIS TO ESWTERON TOU KATAPETASMATO in the preceding verse>(6:19). I’m>trying to determine the stories that are being brought into play here.>My question>has to do with something I dimly remember about either Pompey or Titus>(I told you,>“dimly”) going into the Temple (either the 63 BCE campaign or the 70 CE>campaign) and>going into the Holy of Holies, going “behind the curtain” expecting to>find great>riches and finding only an empty room.> I wonder if PRODROMOS could be related to the Jewish Courses of priesthood?DROMOS is ‘course’ or ‘office’, maybe it refers to an office that wasprevious to the Levitical Courses (ie. the course of Melchisedik). Just anidea that popped in my head.Steve—————————————————————————–| Allegro Graphics, Inc. — Allegro Digital Media, Inc. || 4132 Industrial Drive| | Saint Peters, Missouri 63376 || 1-888-819-8166 Toll Free| —————————————————————————–|Specializing in Database-Managed Printing and Webhosting|—————————————————————————–

Gospel of Peter 10PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Wed May 26 17:49:40 EDT 1999

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 PLEASE: Read, Sign & Forward!!! At 15:13 26/05/99, you wrote:>Hi, Tom> >You should probably focus your search on Pompey rather than Titus.> >There is an allusion to the story you are thinking of on the following >url:> >http://www.joshuanet.org/israel/history.htm> >which says “Pompey brazenly enters Holy of Holies, disappointed to find it >empty.” Unfortunately, this timeline does not give a source.Kevin:Here is the quotation from;Tertullian, _Ad Nationes_ Book 1 ch. 11>> The same Cornelius Tacitus, however,—who, to say the truth, is mostloquacious in falsehood—forgetting his later statement, relates how Pompeythe Great, after conquering the Jews and capturing Jerusalem, entered thetemple, but found nothing in the shape of an image, though he examined theplace carefully. <<>A slightly different take is suggested by a footnote to a volume in the >Ante-Nicene Fathers series that reads: “n. 84 In 63 b.c., when Pompey’s >curiousity led him to penetrate into the Holy of Holies. He was much >impressed, however, by its simplicity, and went away without disturbing its >treasure, wondering at a religion which had no visible God.”This footnote occurs in Eusebius _Church History_ Book 1, ch. 6, but theauthor who attributes it to “curiousiy” clearly hadn’t read Josephusaccount of the bloody battle that preceded it, _Antiquities_, 14,71-72>>Absalom, who was at once both uncle and father-in-law to Aristobulus, wastaken captive; and no small enormities were committed about the templeitself, which, in former ages, had been inaccessible, and seen by none;(72) for Pompey went into it, and not a few of those that were with himalso, and saw all that which it was unlawful for any other men to see, butonly for the high priests. There were in that temple the golden table, theholy candlestick, and the pouring vessels, and a great quantity of spices;and besides these there were among the treasures two thousand talents ofsacred money; yet did Pompey touch nothing of all this, on account of hisregard to religion; and in this point also he acted in a manner that wasworthy of his virtue.<<A note in Whiston adds:”This is fully confirmed by the testimony Cicero, who says in his orationfor Flaccus that …………….<<Regards,MauriceMaurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20PLEASE: Read, Sign & Forward!!!

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Steve Long steve at allegrographics.com
Wed May 26 17:43:23 EDT 1999

Gospel of Peter 10 PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 > >Specifically, I’m intrigued by the proximity of PRODROMOS in Hebrews>6:20 to the>expression EIS TO ESWTERON TOU KATAPETASMATO in the preceding verse>(6:19). I’m>trying to determine the stories that are being brought into play here.>My question>has to do with something I dimly remember about either Pompey or Titus>(I told you,>“dimly”) going into the Temple (either the 63 BCE campaign or the 70 CE>campaign) and>going into the Holy of Holies, going “behind the curtain” expecting to>find great>riches and finding only an empty room.> I wonder if PRODROMOS could be related to the Jewish Courses of priesthood?DROMOS is ‘course’ or ‘office’, maybe it refers to an office that wasprevious to the Levitical Courses (ie. the course of Melchisedik). Just anidea that popped in my head.Steve—————————————————————————–| Allegro Graphics, Inc. — Allegro Digital Media, Inc. || 4132 Industrial Drive| | Saint Peters, Missouri 63376 || 1-888-819-8166 Toll Free| —————————————————————————–|Specializing in Database-Managed Printing and Webhosting|—————————————————————————–

Gospel of Peter 10PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Wed May 26 17:49:40 EDT 1999

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 PLEASE: Read, Sign & Forward!!! At 15:13 26/05/99, you wrote:>Hi, Tom> >You should probably focus your search on Pompey rather than Titus.> >There is an allusion to the story you are thinking of on the following >url:> >http://www.joshuanet.org/israel/history.htm> >which says “Pompey brazenly enters Holy of Holies, disappointed to find it >empty.” Unfortunately, this timeline does not give a source.Kevin:Here is the quotation from;Tertullian, _Ad Nationes_ Book 1 ch. 11>> The same Cornelius Tacitus, however,—who, to say the truth, is mostloquacious in falsehood—forgetting his later statement, relates how Pompeythe Great, after conquering the Jews and capturing Jerusalem, entered thetemple, but found nothing in the shape of an image, though he examined theplace carefully. <<>A slightly different take is suggested by a footnote to a volume in the >Ante-Nicene Fathers series that reads: “n. 84 In 63 b.c., when Pompey’s >curiousity led him to penetrate into the Holy of Holies. He was much >impressed, however, by its simplicity, and went away without disturbing its >treasure, wondering at a religion which had no visible God.”This footnote occurs in Eusebius _Church History_ Book 1, ch. 6, but theauthor who attributes it to “curiousiy” clearly hadn’t read Josephusaccount of the bloody battle that preceded it, _Antiquities_, 14,71-72>>Absalom, who was at once both uncle and father-in-law to Aristobulus, wastaken captive; and no small enormities were committed about the templeitself, which, in former ages, had been inaccessible, and seen by none;(72) for Pompey went into it, and not a few of those that were with himalso, and saw all that which it was unlawful for any other men to see, butonly for the high priests. There were in that temple the golden table, theholy candlestick, and the pouring vessels, and a great quantity of spices;and besides these there were among the treasures two thousand talents ofsacred money; yet did Pompey touch nothing of all this, on account of hisregard to religion; and in this point also he acted in a manner that wasworthy of his virtue.<<A note in Whiston adds:”This is fully confirmed by the testimony Cicero, who says in his orationfor Flaccus that …………….<<Regards,MauriceMaurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie

PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20PLEASE: Read, Sign & Forward!!!

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Kevin L. Barney klbarney at yahoo.com
Wed May 26 22:40:45 EDT 1999

Hebrews 1:8 AORIST VS PRESENT INFINITIVE Maurice’s citation of Tertullian led me to the original text in Tacitus, Histories, V.9. This translation is by Church and Brodribb; sorry, but I don’t have the Latin text of the Histories in my library:”Cneius Pompeius was the first of our countrymen to subdue the Jews. Availing himself of the right of conquest, he entered the temple. Thus it became commonly known that the place stood empty with no similitude of gods within, and that the shrine had nothing to reveal. The walls of Jerusalem were destroyed, the templle was left standing.”Kevin L. BarneyHoffman Estates, Illinoisklbarney at yahoo.com

Hebrews 1:8AORIST VS PRESENT INFINITIVE

PRODROMOS in Heb. 6:20 Kevin L. Barney klbarney at yahoo.com
Wed May 26 22:40:45 EDT 1999

Hebrews 1:8 AORIST VS PRESENT INFINITIVE Maurice’s citation of Tertullian led me to the original text in Tacitus, Histories, V.9. This translation is by Church and Brodribb; sorry, but I don’t have the Latin text of the Histories in my library:”Cneius Pompeius was the first of our countrymen to subdue the Jews. Availing himself of the right of conquest, he entered the temple. Thus it became commonly known that the place stood empty with no similitude of gods within, and that the shrine had nothing to reveal. The walls of Jerusalem were destroyed, the templle was left standing.”Kevin L. BarneyHoffman Estates, Illinoisklbarney at yahoo.com

Hebrews 1:8AORIST VS PRESENT INFINITIVE

[] PRODROMOS in Heb 6:20 Susan Amy samyhunt at bellsouth.net
Thu Apr 29 23:29:58 EDT 2004

[] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testament [] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testament Mr. Conry,While doing research for Hebrews 6:20, I came across your name as also doing research on this verse.I am presenting a paper on this topic as well as the use of word arkegon, which appears 4 times, Acts 3:15 and Acts 5:31 and Hebrews 2:10 and 12.Might I ask if you have any information or sources of information, which you would be willing to share on the topic.Thank you,Susan HuntLafayette, Louisiana

[] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testament[] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testament

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