Jude 22

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Yamada Yuki skepuki at gmail.com
Sat Oct 13 21:38:23 EDT 2007

 

[] Understanding, translating, and understanding translations [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Hi.I’ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns, hOUS in verses 22 and 23.Since they are relative pronouns, I assume that the referent (in this case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of the preceding text, I mean, here, another group of people are introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun elsewhere?Thanks,Yuki

 

[] Understanding, translating, and understanding translations[] hOUS in Jude 22,23

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Steven Lo Vullo slovullo at charter.net
Sun Oct 14 00:37:37 EDT 2007

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 On Oct 13, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Yamada Yuki wrote:> I’ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns,> hOUS in verses 22 and 23.> Since they are relative pronouns, I assume that the referent (in this> case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If> this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be> hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my> teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of> the preceding text, I mean, here, another group of people are> introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun> elsewhere?Hi Yamada:22 KAI hOUS MEN ELEATE DIAKRINOMENOUS, 23 hOUS DE SWiZETE EK PUROS hARPAZONTES, hOUS DE ELEATE EN FOBWi MISOUNTES KAI TON APO THS SARKOS ESPILWMENON CITWNA.hOS is used here as a demonstrative pronoun. The key is the presence of MEN and DE. They are often used with various forms of hOS to mark two or more contrasted items. So MEN hOUS … DE hOUS … DE hOUS are in the passage at hand used to indicate some who are to be approached in one way, others in another, and still others in another, depending on their distinctive situations. The idea with this structure is “some … others … others.” It is not at all uncommon.============Steven Lo VulloMadison, WI

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23[] hOUS in Jude 22,23

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Oct 14 01:43:40 EDT 2007

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] Semantics —– Original Message —– From: “Yamada Yuki” <skepuki at gmail.com>> Hi.> > I’ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns,> hOUS in verses 22 and 23.> Since they are relative pronouns, I assume that the referent (in this> case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If> this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be> hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my> teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of> the preceding text, I mean, here, another group of people are> introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun> elsewhere?> > Thanks,> YukiYes there is, and it is particularly common in a construction with MEN and DE. Both you and your teacher are on the fight track, so try to combine both insights.Compare Rom 14:1-5, where in verse 1 the weak in faith is introduced as topic. Then in verse 2, we read:hOS MEN PISTEUEI FAGEIN PANTA, hO DE ASQENWN LACANA ESQIEIIn v. 4 the topic of a servant of the Lord is introduced and then we read in v. 5:hOS MEN KRINEI hHMERAN PAR’ hHMERAN, hOS DE KRINEI PASAN hHMERANUsually the relatives refer back to some group of people or some things (like the implicit seeds in Mat 13:4 and parallels) mentioned or implied in the preceding context and then those people or things are divided into subgroups of which one subgroup is compared or contrasted to another subgroup. In v. 5 the different servants are compared, some of whom consider one day to be above another, others of whom consider all days the same.However, in v. 2, the reference is more general, pointing to people/believers of whom some believe they are allowed to eat everything, while the weak in faith eat only vegetables (that is, abstaining from sacrificial meat).In Jude 22-23 you have three groups which are described in various ways.KAI hOUS MEN ELEATE DIAKRINOMENOUS, hOUS DE SWiZETE EK PUROS hARPAZONTES, hOUS DE ELEATE EN FOBWi MISOUNTES KAI TON APO THS SARKHS ESPILWMENON CITWNA.I don’t think these three groups are subgroups of the hOUTOI in v. 19, but rather subgroups of people in general. You may postulate an implied ANQRWPOI as referent, so the sense is: to some people specified as follows, do this, to others do that, and to others again do something else.Group 1 is characterized as wavering/doubting – DIAKRINOMENOUS, show them kindness and empathy.Group 2 is on the brink of destruction/punishment, so you should save them by snatching them out of the impending fire – EK PUROS hARPAZONTESGroup 3 are sinners who should be shown mercy while at the same time their sinful actions should be shunned.The three groups may well have some overlap.Iver Larsen

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23[] Semantics

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 14 11:26:31 EDT 2007

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Yuki,Iver has explained this quite clearly.This construction is found in Attic with the article hO, hH, TO used as a demonstrative, but in later greek the relative is used. See Smyth #1106-#1112, N.Turner p36, A.T.Robertson p696.Elizabeth Kline

 

[] hOUS in Jude 22,23[] hOUS in Jude 22,23

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