Mark ch 15, v. 2 HoLogos at aol.com HoLogos at aol.com
Tue Jun 9 01:43:29 EDT 1998
BHS Received!! BHS Received!! Dear George,Thank’s for your e-mail. I had brought up the SU LEGEIS of Jesus to Pilate inMark 15:2.To answer your question as to whether my question had been answered: EdgarFoster suggested a book by Earle, and Ben Crick suggested a book by CFD Moule,”An Idiom Book of NT Greek.” Ben Crick pointed out the prosecutorial importof Pilate’s question, and that that could affect Jesus’ answer, whichconsideration I also am concerned about. Ward Powers did an excellent jobcomparing the other three gospels and how they illumine Mark’s SU LEGEIS, andWard’s argument was compelling I thought. I also acknowledge the truth of thepoint of Carl Conrad and others, that idioms are hard to pin down.I still have a few questions about SU LEGEIS:(1) What is the significance of the grave accent on SU in Mark 15:2? For inthe paradigm of SU (or EGW), SU has the acute accent, not the grave.I think most anyone would agree with the following statement: If we could hearthe intonation of the speech of the subjects, it would make a great differencein our perception of their meaning. If we heard Jesus uttering SU LEGEIS (orrather either of Mark or Peter when translating in his mind), what intonationwould it have?As illustration of how intonation can change meaning almost 180 degrees,consider these two different intonations of the English “You said it.” Ifthe intonation of the 3 syllables was hi-lo-lo, and with “you” also louderthan the words “say it,” that would be taken by me as non-affirmative. But ifit was mid-hi-mid, with volumes equal, then that would be an affirmativeresponse, similar to our “you’ve got it.”I understand that the meaning of the grave accent, that is, a line descendingfrom left to right, originally meant something similar to how intonation marksare used in phonetics today: the grave accent would be either a descendingintonation or a lower pitch, the acute either a rising intonation or a higherpitch, and the circumflex a rising-descending intonation. I base this partlyon a recorded lecture I heard 10 years ago by a Professor Stanford (ofCambridge U., I think). I remember he said the total tonal range was amusical fifth interval. But I’m not clear on what he said about the grave-was it the 3rd interval, musically speaking, or the 5th? In other words, wasit starting high pitched dropping a 3rd to medium? Starting medium anddropping a 3rd to low pitch? Starting high pitch and dropping a 5th, all theway to low pitch? If I remember right, the grave was a 3rd interval, startingfrom mid and dropping to low. Does this lecture ring a bell with anyone?I just looked at all the occurrences of SU in the gospels, and out of the 113occcurences, 93 have the grave accent, and only 20 the acute. There are 2acutes in Matthew, 1 in Mark, 3 in Luke, and 14 in John. I think I canreport a few trends. There are as many acutely accented SU’s in Jesus’ prayerin John 17 (six of them) as in all three synoptic gospels combined. Theoccurrence in John 11:42 is also in a prayer. Interestingly, the only SU inMark with an acute accent, is also in a prayer, Mark 14:36. Matthew agreeswith Mark on this, Mt. 26:39. Could there be more to the expression “liftedup his voice” in prayer than meets the eye? In prayer, perhaps the words werespoken in a higher pitch. I know that in many cultures people speak in ahigher pitched voice when they pray. (Come to think of it, I myself do, whenmaking entreaty. And when I am entreating my fellow human, I also do this.But when I am calmy stating facts, my voice is lower in pitch.)Matthew and Luke agree (Mt. 11:23, Lk 10:15) about the acutley accented SUwhen Jesus addresses the town of Capernaum and inveighs against it, condemningit to Hades. Consider also the word “acute” itself. It implies sharpness. And feelingsmore keenly felt. Would one not feel and speak more keenly in an earnestentreaty, and when inveighing against a wicked city? And when feeling fear?(John 19:9, Pilate is afraid, and maybe Jn 4:19 where the woman is perhapsafraid, perhaps surprised.) And the word “grave” clearly indicates a lowerpitch.Now, of the 20 acutely accented SU’s in the gospels:Nine, or 45%, are in a prayer. Mt 26:39, Mk 14:36, Jn 11:42; 17:5, 8, 21, 21,23, 25. Possibly also Lk 22:32, and if so, would make 50%.Eight, or 40%, are in an interrogatory sentence. Mt 11:23, Lk 10:15, 17:8,John 1:21, 1:21, 13:6, 18:37, 19:9Seven, or 35%, are the last word of a sentence. Mt 26:39, Mk 14:36, Lk 17:8,Jn 1:21, 1:21, 4:19, 18:37a, 19:9Five, or 25%, are the last word in an interrogatory sentence.Four, or 20%, are in some sort of rebuke. Mt 11:23, Lk 10:15, Jn 13:6, 21:22.Plus maybe Lk 17:8 and 22:32I also noted that there are only 4 other acutely accented SU’s in all the therest of the NT. One is Acts 10:33 where Cornelius is entreating Peter. Allof the remaining three are quotes of Psalm 2:7. (Acts 13:33, Heb. 1:5, 5:5)In Jesus’ answer to Pilate in all synoptic gospels, the grave accent ispresent on the SU, and also in John 18:37. By the way, I noticed consistencyand agreement among the various gospels as to when EGW was acutely accented.For example, even though EGW had the acute accent only 22% of the time, allthree gospels that have the saying agree that EGW had an acute accent whenJesus assured the frightened disciples EGW EIMI when they saw him walking onthe water. (Mt 14:27, Mk 6:50, Jn 6:20) All three synoptics agreed that whenfalse prophets appear and claim, EGW EIMI, that EGW has the acute accent.These are but a few examples of such consistency.If there is a Greek scholar out there who is also an SIL linguist, who hasdone a intonation analysis of ancient Greek, I would love to see such aperson’s input. I know it is possible to know the tones of the accents. Forexample, couldn’t one study Aristophanes’ Birds poem, in which the calls ofknown species of bird are imitated and written down? By comparing the accentsin that poem to how the birds still call today, as to where the pitch risesand falls, shouldn’t we be able to deduce the pitch of the three Greekaccents? I think I am remembering this also from Professor Stanford.I see some other hints in the NT that the acute accent still, at leastsometimes, indicated a raising of the pitch of the voice. By this I mean araising of the pitch of the voice, musically speaking, and not necessarilyaccompanied by the raising of the volume as we tend to think as Englishspeakers. For example, I noticed in Luke 11:27 where he says that a woman inthe crowd “lifted up her voice,” EPARASA TIS PHWNHN GUNH EK TOU OCLOU, Lukeeven on the word for “raise” adds an extra acute accent on the last syllablethat is not called for to indicate grammatically the word’s part of speech.The nom. sing. fem. aor. 1 active participle form in a paradigm would haveonly one acute accent, on the second syllable. But Luke puts a second acuteaccent also on the last syllable. This must be for pitch effect? In the sameway, in the quote of the woman following, on the word BASTASASA, Luke added asecond, grammatically unnecessary acute accent to the last syllable. So Lukeeven when he states that she “raised her voice,” raises his own pitch inmimicry when he says the word “raise.” And when he quotes the woman, he hasher speaking more high-pitched syllables than usual.So I am beginning to think that the SU in Mark 15:2 is less emphatic than Iformerly thought. Yet, the presence of the pronoun is not necesary for thesense, or the completeness of the sentence, right? So to some degree, itsvery presence is emphatic? In Jesus’ response to the Sanhedrin in Matthew26:64, there is some emphasis on SU because of contrast to what Jesus says hehimself says: “SU EIPAS. PLEEN LEGW hUMIN…” In John 18:37 when Pilateasked him the second time if he was a king, Jesus answered, SU LEGEIS hOTIBASILEUS EIMI. EGW EIS TOUTO…” Here again SU has the grave accent. Jesuscontrasted Pilate’s idea of his being a king, versus what Jesus said he camefor, to testify to the truth. Jesus wasn’t necessarily denying kingship, infact he had already said “My kingship is not of this place.”Regards to all,David Palmerhologos at aol.com
BHS Received!!BHS Received!!
Mark ch 15, v. 2 HoLogos at aol.com HoLogos at aol.com
Tue Jun 9 01:43:29 EDT 1998
BHS Received!! BHS Received!! Dear George,Thank’s for your e-mail. I had brought up the SU LEGEIS of Jesus to Pilate inMark 15:2.To answer your question as to whether my question had been answered: EdgarFoster suggested a book by Earle, and Ben Crick suggested a book by CFD Moule,”An Idiom Book of NT Greek.” Ben Crick pointed out the prosecutorial importof Pilate’s question, and that that could affect Jesus’ answer, whichconsideration I also am concerned about. Ward Powers did an excellent jobcomparing the other three gospels and how they illumine Mark’s SU LEGEIS, andWard’s argument was compelling I thought. I also acknowledge the truth of thepoint of Carl Conrad and others, that idioms are hard to pin down.I still have a few questions about SU LEGEIS:(1) What is the significance of the grave accent on SU in Mark 15:2? For inthe paradigm of SU (or EGW), SU has the acute accent, not the grave.I think most anyone would agree with the following statement: If we could hearthe intonation of the speech of the subjects, it would make a great differencein our perception of their meaning. If we heard Jesus uttering SU LEGEIS (orrather either of Mark or Peter when translating in his mind), what intonationwould it have?As illustration of how intonation can change meaning almost 180 degrees,consider these two different intonations of the English “You said it.” Ifthe intonation of the 3 syllables was hi-lo-lo, and with “you” also louderthan the words “say it,” that would be taken by me as non-affirmative. But ifit was mid-hi-mid, with volumes equal, then that would be an affirmativeresponse, similar to our “you’ve got it.”I understand that the meaning of the grave accent, that is, a line descendingfrom left to right, originally meant something similar to how intonation marksare used in phonetics today: the grave accent would be either a descendingintonation or a lower pitch, the acute either a rising intonation or a higherpitch, and the circumflex a rising-descending intonation. I base this partlyon a recorded lecture I heard 10 years ago by a Professor Stanford (ofCambridge U., I think). I remember he said the total tonal range was amusical fifth interval. But I’m not clear on what he said about the grave-was it the 3rd interval, musically speaking, or the 5th? In other words, wasit starting high pitched dropping a 3rd to medium? Starting medium anddropping a 3rd to low pitch? Starting high pitch and dropping a 5th, all theway to low pitch? If I remember right, the grave was a 3rd interval, startingfrom mid and dropping to low. Does this lecture ring a bell with anyone?I just looked at all the occurrences of SU in the gospels, and out of the 113occcurences, 93 have the grave accent, and only 20 the acute. There are 2acutes in Matthew, 1 in Mark, 3 in Luke, and 14 in John. I think I canreport a few trends. There are as many acutely accented SU’s in Jesus’ prayerin John 17 (six of them) as in all three synoptic gospels combined. Theoccurrence in John 11:42 is also in a prayer. Interestingly, the only SU inMark with an acute accent, is also in a prayer, Mark 14:36. Matthew agreeswith Mark on this, Mt. 26:39. Could there be more to the expression “liftedup his voice” in prayer than meets the eye? In prayer, perhaps the words werespoken in a higher pitch. I know that in many cultures people speak in ahigher pitched voice when they pray. (Come to think of it, I myself do, whenmaking entreaty. And when I am entreating my fellow human, I also do this.But when I am calmy stating facts, my voice is lower in pitch.)Matthew and Luke agree (Mt. 11:23, Lk 10:15) about the acutley accented SUwhen Jesus addresses the town of Capernaum and inveighs against it, condemningit to Hades. Consider also the word “acute” itself. It implies sharpness. And feelingsmore keenly felt. Would one not feel and speak more keenly in an earnestentreaty, and when inveighing against a wicked city? And when feeling fear?(John 19:9, Pilate is afraid, and maybe Jn 4:19 where the woman is perhapsafraid, perhaps surprised.) And the word “grave” clearly indicates a lowerpitch.Now, of the 20 acutely accented SU’s in the gospels:Nine, or 45%, are in a prayer. Mt 26:39, Mk 14:36, Jn 11:42; 17:5, 8, 21, 21,23, 25. Possibly also Lk 22:32, and if so, would make 50%.Eight, or 40%, are in an interrogatory sentence. Mt 11:23, Lk 10:15, 17:8,John 1:21, 1:21, 13:6, 18:37, 19:9Seven, or 35%, are the last word of a sentence. Mt 26:39, Mk 14:36, Lk 17:8,Jn 1:21, 1:21, 4:19, 18:37a, 19:9Five, or 25%, are the last word in an interrogatory sentence.Four, or 20%, are in some sort of rebuke. Mt 11:23, Lk 10:15, Jn 13:6, 21:22.Plus maybe Lk 17:8 and 22:32I also noted that there are only 4 other acutely accented SU’s in all the therest of the NT. One is Acts 10:33 where Cornelius is entreating Peter. Allof the remaining three are quotes of Psalm 2:7. (Acts 13:33, Heb. 1:5, 5:5)In Jesus’ answer to Pilate in all synoptic gospels, the grave accent ispresent on the SU, and also in John 18:37. By the way, I noticed consistencyand agreement among the various gospels as to when EGW was acutely accented.For example, even though EGW had the acute accent only 22% of the time, allthree gospels that have the saying agree that EGW had an acute accent whenJesus assured the frightened disciples EGW EIMI when they saw him walking onthe water. (Mt 14:27, Mk 6:50, Jn 6:20) All three synoptics agreed that whenfalse prophets appear and claim, EGW EIMI, that EGW has the acute accent.These are but a few examples of such consistency.If there is a Greek scholar out there who is also an SIL linguist, who hasdone a intonation analysis of ancient Greek, I would love to see such aperson’s input. I know it is possible to know the tones of the accents. Forexample, couldn’t one study Aristophanes’ Birds poem, in which the calls ofknown species of bird are imitated and written down? By comparing the accentsin that poem to how the birds still call today, as to where the pitch risesand falls, shouldn’t we be able to deduce the pitch of the three Greekaccents? I think I am remembering this also from Professor Stanford.I see some other hints in the NT that the acute accent still, at leastsometimes, indicated a raising of the pitch of the voice. By this I mean araising of the pitch of the voice, musically speaking, and not necessarilyaccompanied by the raising of the volume as we tend to think as Englishspeakers. For example, I noticed in Luke 11:27 where he says that a woman inthe crowd “lifted up her voice,” EPARASA TIS PHWNHN GUNH EK TOU OCLOU, Lukeeven on the word for “raise” adds an extra acute accent on the last syllablethat is not called for to indicate grammatically the word’s part of speech.The nom. sing. fem. aor. 1 active participle form in a paradigm would haveonly one acute accent, on the second syllable. But Luke puts a second acuteaccent also on the last syllable. This must be for pitch effect? In the sameway, in the quote of the woman following, on the word BASTASASA, Luke added asecond, grammatically unnecessary acute accent to the last syllable. So Lukeeven when he states that she “raised her voice,” raises his own pitch inmimicry when he says the word “raise.” And when he quotes the woman, he hasher speaking more high-pitched syllables than usual.So I am beginning to think that the SU in Mark 15:2 is less emphatic than Iformerly thought. Yet, the presence of the pronoun is not necesary for thesense, or the completeness of the sentence, right? So to some degree, itsvery presence is emphatic? In Jesus’ response to the Sanhedrin in Matthew26:64, there is some emphasis on SU because of contrast to what Jesus says hehimself says: “SU EIPAS. PLEEN LEGW hUMIN…” In John 18:37 when Pilateasked him the second time if he was a king, Jesus answered, SU LEGEIS hOTIBASILEUS EIMI. EGW EIS TOUTO…” Here again SU has the grave accent. Jesuscontrasted Pilate’s idea of his being a king, versus what Jesus said he camefor, to testify to the truth. Jesus wasn’t necessarily denying kingship, infact he had already said “My kingship is not of this place.”Regards to all,David Palmerhologos at aol.com
BHS Received!!BHS Received!!
Mark ch 15, v. 2 dalmatia at eburg.com dalmatia at eburg.com
Tue Jun 9 11:46:25 EDT 1998
adjectives Apologies ! David!!Welcome to !!Others will answer much better than I your questions on accents. Ihad sumply understood them to be much later add-ons [on the order of athousand years!] and really NOT a part of any of the manuscripts forthe first 400 years or so. Thus they would seem to be’reconstructive’ in nature, and probably have a lot of differingviews. We’ll see…I’m just glad to see you here!George Blaisdell
adjectivesApologies !
Mark ch 15, v. 2 dalmatia at eburg.com dalmatia at eburg.com
Tue Jun 9 11:46:25 EDT 1998
adjectives Apologies ! David!!Welcome to !!Others will answer much better than I your questions on accents. Ihad sumply understood them to be much later add-ons [on the order of athousand years!] and really NOT a part of any of the manuscripts forthe first 400 years or so. Thus they would seem to be’reconstructive’ in nature, and probably have a lot of differingviews. We’ll see…I’m just glad to see you here!George Blaisdell
adjectivesApologies !
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Stephen C. Carlson scarlson at mindspring.com
Wed Jun 10 00:43:09 EDT 1998
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Traveling Greeks (was SBL in Poland) At 12:40 6/10/98, you wrote:>I think that you are reading too much into the accents, because>in this case there are well-defined rules that describe the>behavior of oxytones (words whose syllable carries an acute>accent).Make that: “words whose LAST syllable”Stephen Carlson–Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,scarlson at mindspring.com : and songs chant the words.http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : — Shujing 2.35
Mark ch 15, v. 2Traveling Greeks (was SBL in Poland)
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Stephen C. Carlson scarlson at mindspring.com
Wed Jun 10 00:40:00 EDT 1998
adjectives Mark ch 15, v. 2 I think that you are reading too much into the accents, becausein this case there are well-defined rules that describe thebehavior of oxytones (words whose syllable carries an acuteaccent).Briefly, an oxytone changes its accent to grave before otherwords in the sentence, EXCEPT (a) before enclitics, (b) beforean elided syllable, (c) in the interrogative TI/S, TI?, and(d) before a period or colon. If you look at all the examplesof SU/ with an acute accent, you will find that each examplefalls under one of the exceptions, usually (d) and then (a).Stephen Carlson–Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,scarlson at mindspring.com : and songs chant the words.http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : — Shujing 2.35
adjectivesMark ch 15, v. 2
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Stephen C. Carlson scarlson at mindspring.com
Wed Jun 10 00:40:00 EDT 1998
adjectives Mark ch 15, v. 2 I think that you are reading too much into the accents, becausein this case there are well-defined rules that describe thebehavior of oxytones (words whose syllable carries an acuteaccent).Briefly, an oxytone changes its accent to grave before otherwords in the sentence, EXCEPT (a) before enclitics, (b) beforean elided syllable, (c) in the interrogative TI/S, TI?, and(d) before a period or colon. If you look at all the examplesof SU/ with an acute accent, you will find that each examplefalls under one of the exceptions, usually (d) and then (a).Stephen Carlson–Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,scarlson at mindspring.com : and songs chant the words.http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : — Shujing 2.35
adjectivesMark ch 15, v. 2
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Stephen C. Carlson scarlson at mindspring.com
Wed Jun 10 00:43:09 EDT 1998
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Traveling Greeks (was SBL in Poland) At 12:40 6/10/98, you wrote:>I think that you are reading too much into the accents, because>in this case there are well-defined rules that describe the>behavior of oxytones (words whose syllable carries an acute>accent).Make that: “words whose LAST syllable”Stephen Carlson–Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,scarlson at mindspring.com : and songs chant the words.http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : — Shujing 2.35
Mark ch 15, v. 2Traveling Greeks (was SBL in Poland)
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Alexander Kyrychenko Kyrychenko at compuserve.com
Wed Jun 10 14:59:00 EDT 1998
How to study, what to use…. new list Were the words accented in ancient MSS? I’ve thought they were not.Alexander.
How to study, what to use….new list
Mark ch 15, v. 2 Alexander Kyrychenko Kyrychenko at compuserve.com
Wed Jun 10 14:59:00 EDT 1998
How to study, what to use…. new list Were the words accented in ancient MSS? I’ve thought they were not.Alexander.
How to study, what to use….new list