Revelation 11:15

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI David McKay music at fl.net.au
Sun Sep 5 08:40:53 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latinrather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information onthis?I would be interested to know of a KJV rendering or two which illustratethis.David McKaymuisc at fl.net.au

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Sep 5 08:52:52 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Matthew 21:29-31 At 8:26 AM -0400 9/5/99, Jim West wrote:>At 07:48 AM 9/5/99 -0700, you wrote:>>The 1550 Textus Receptus apparently has hAI BASILEIAI. My UBS 3rd lists no>>variants that support that reading, and reads hH BASILEIA instead.>>Metzger’s Textual commentary does not discuss the verse, so I assume that>>support for the plural reading is not strong. Does anybody know what that>>support is?> >There is one mss (number 1 in fact)a 12th century text which has the>plural. Small wonder UBS 3 doesnt mention it.Is the fact that only this one has the plural the reason why you say “ONE MSs”?Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIMatthew 21:29-31

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Jonathan Robie jonathan.robie at sagus.com
Sun Sep 5 10:48:02 EDT 1999

 

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament Matthew 21:29-31 The 1550 Textus Receptus apparently has hAI BASILEIAI. My UBS 3rd lists no variants that support that reading, and reads hH BASILEIA instead. Metzger’s Textual commentary does not discuss the verse, so I assume that support for the plural reading is not strong. Does anybody know what that support is?Jonathan

 

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament Matthew 21:29-31

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Sun Sep 5 15:01:43 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI At 10:40 PM 9/5/99 +1000, you wrote:>I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latin>rather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information on>this?in fact erasmus had no copy of rev in greek– so he translated the vulgateinto greek and viola! revelation in greek as the TR has it!best,jim+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDemail- jwest at highland.netweb page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Bill Barton phos at prodigy.net
Sun Sep 5 13:48:05 EDT 1999

 

English to Greek Excercises? Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Johnathan Robie wrote:JR>The 1550 Textus Receptus apparently has hAI BASILEIAI. My UBS 3rd listsno variants that support that reading, and reads hH BASILEIA instead. Metzger’s Textual commentary does not discuss the verse, so I assume thatsupport for the plural reading is not strong. Does anybody know what thatsupport is?>Hodges and Farstad (“The Greek New Testament According to the MajorityText,” Nelson 1985) give a citation of TR (Textus Receptus) and Me (thatis, M superscript e) for the plural reading BASILEIAI. They identify Me asfollows: “Md and Me are subgroups of the family of manuscripts associated with thecommentary of Andrew, bishop of Caesarea, in Cappadocia. The life and workof Andrew are usually assigned to the late sixth and early seventhcenturies. This may well be too late, but in any event the text-form whichAndrew used is much older.” (op cit pg. xxxvi)Bill Barton

 

English to Greek Excercises?Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Jim West jwest at highland.net
Sun Sep 5 15:03:24 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI At 07:52 AM 9/5/99 -0500, you wrote:>>There is one mss (number 1 in fact)a 12th century text which has the>>plural. Small wonder UBS 3 doesnt mention it.> >Is the fact that only this one has the plural the reason why you say “ONE MSs”?i guess so!!! i must have been carried away in the spirit- writing what idid not know!!! ;-)j.+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDemail- jwest at highland.netweb page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Bob Vincent rbvincent at xc.org
Sun Sep 5 15:20:05 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Jim West <jwest at Highland.Net> wrote:> in fact erasmus had no copy of rev in greek– so he translated the vulgate> into greek and viola! revelation in greek as the TR has it!Dear Jim,Bruce Metzger said:”For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, dating from thetwelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend Reuchlin.Unfortunately, this manuscript lacked the final leaf, which had containedthe last six verses of the book. For these verses, as well as a few otherpassages throughout the book where the Greek text of the Apocalypse and theadjoining Greek commentary with which the manuscript was supplied are somixed up as to be almost indistinguishable, Erasmus depended on the LatinVulgate, translating this text into Greek. As would be expected from such aprocedure, here and there in Erasmus’ self-made Greek text are readingswhich have never been found in any known Greek manuscript — but which arestill perpetuated today in printings of the so-called Textus Receptus of theGreek New Testament.” [Bruce M. Metzger, _The Text of the New Testament_(Oxford: 1968), pp. 99, 100]Sincerely,Bob”He said that we called ourselves Christians, but we were indifferent to thesufferings of Christians. He said that when we say we are Christians, whatwe mean is that we are white.”Jarvis in Alan Paton’s _Cry, the Beloved Country_Robert Benn Vincent, Sr.Grace Presbyterian Church4900 Jackson StreetAlexandria, Louisiana 71303-2509318.445.7271 church318.443.1034 fax318.445.7905 homerbvincent at xc.orghttp://www4.linknet.net/rbvincent

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Edgar Foster questioning1 at yahoo.com
Sun Sep 5 15:23:01 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Hi Jonathan,You might take a look at Aune’s commentary on Revelation. He has thefollowing information that might be able to serve as a springboard foryour research:”Variants: (1) EGENETO hH BASILEIA] Andreas 94 025. (2) EGENONTO hAIBASILEIAI] Andr a b c g h n 598 1773 2019 (3) omit EGENETO] Andr. e.The abbreviation key is also in the front of his commentary.I’m no textual critic, but I thought this might help you some.Edgar===Edgar FosterClassics MajorLenoir-Rhyne Collegehttp://www.egroups.com/list/greektheology/__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Sun Sep 5 16:24:38 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI According to Bruce Metzger Erasmus was missing only the last page (leaf) of his single 12th cent. Greek manuscript for Revelation. The six verseson this leaf he supplied from the Latin Vulgate. Erasmus also used theVulgate to supply his text of Revelation in a few other places (howmany?) where the Greek text was confused because the explanatoryglosses were mixed in with the text. See Metzger, Text of the NT, 2nded. p. 99.–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062———-J. Robie wrote:>>I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latin>>rather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information on>>this?Jim West replied:> > in fact erasmus had no copy of rev in greek– so he translated the vulgate> into greek and viola! revelation in greek as the TR has it!> > best,> > jim

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIRev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Bill Barton phos at prodigy.net
Sun Sep 5 16:36:06 EDT 1999

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI erasmus and rev. Jim West wrote:JW>in fact erasmus had no copy of rev in greek– so he translated thevulgate into greek and viola! revelation in greek as the TR has it!>Metzger notes the following in “The Text of the New Testament” (Oxford,1992, pp. 99-100):Owing to the haste in production [of Erasmus’ 1516 Greek text], the volumecontains hundreds of typographical errors; in fact, Scrivner once declared,'[It] is in that respect the most faulty book I know.’ 1 Since Erasmuscould not find a manuscript which contained the entire Greek Testament, heutilized several for various parts of the New Testament. For most of thetext he relied on two rather inferior manuscripts from a monsastic libraryat Basle, one of the Gospels (see Plate XV) and one of the Acts andEpistles, both dating from about the twelfth century.2 Erasmus comparedthem with two or three others of the same books and entered occasionalcorrections for the printer in the margins or between the lines of theGreek script.3 For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript,dating from the twelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend,Reuchlin. Unfortunately, this manuscript lacked the final leaf, which hadcontained the last six verses of the book. For these verses, as well as afew other passages throughout the book where the Greek text of theApocalypse and the adjoining Greek commentary with which the manuscript wassupplied are so mixed up as to be almost indistinguishable, Erasmusdepended upon the Latin Vulgate, translating this text into Greek. Aswould be expected from such a procedure, here and there in Erasmus’self-made Greek text are readings which have never been found in any knownGreek manuscript–but which are still perpetuated today in printings of theso-called Textus Receptus of the Greek New Testament.1″”1 For example akathartetos (Rev. xvii.4; there is, however, no such wordin the Greek language as akathartes, meaning ‘uncleanness’); orthrinos(xxii.16); elthe twice, elthetw (xxii.17); summarturoumai gar…epititheipros tauta (xxii.18); aphairei biblou…aphairesei (future for aphelei!!),biblou (second occurrence) xxii.19; humwn (xxii.21).”

 

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAIerasmus and rev.

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Carlton Winbery winberyc at popalex1.linknet.net
Sun Sep 5 17:21:39 EDT 1999

 

erasmus and rev. 3 questions >At 10:40 PM 9/5/99 +1000, you wrote:>>I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latin>>rather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information on>>this?> >in fact erasmus had no copy of rev in greek– so he translated the vulgate>into greek and viola! revelation in greek as the TR has it!> Jim, the fact is that Erasmus did have a ms of Revelation, but the last fewverses were missing. These verses are what he translated from Latinintroducing some few readings for which there has not been found a Greekwitness.Dr. Carlton L. WinberyFoggleman Professor of ReligionLouisiana Collegewinbery at andria.lacollege.eduwinberyc at popalex1.linknet.netPh. 1 318 448 6103 hmPh. 1 318 487 7241 off

 

erasmus and rev.3 questions

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI LGOberean at aol.com LGOberean at aol.com
Sun Sep 5 18:59:36 EDT 1999

 

erasmus and rev. Cyclopedia G’day, David ~Rev. 22:19 is perhaps the most famous example of this phenomena of KJV renderings in the Apocalypse that are of Latin (rather than Greek) origin.AFAIRHSEI hO QEOS TO MEROS AUTOU APO TOU BIBLOU THS ZWHS [Erasmus; Stephens, 1550; Elzevir, 1633 (“TR”)]”…God shall take away his part out of the book of life…” (KJV)This Greek text has no manuscript support. It originated with Erasmus. I refer specifically to the word BIBLOU in the phrase quoted above. The reading BIBLOU is Erasmus’ translation of the Latin “libro.” Either the Latin manuscript Erasmus translated from had this reading, or Erasmus mistook “ligno” (tree) for “libro” (book). It of course should read: AFELEI hO QEOS TO MEROS AUTOU APO TOU XULOU THS ZWHS [Griesbach; Lachmann; Tischendorf; Tregelles; Alford; Wordsworth; Westcott-Hort; Scrivener; Nestle (21st Edition); UBS3 (Corrected)] “God will take away his part from the tree of life.”Also, in the beginning of this phrase in the so-called Textus Receptus, AFAIRHSEI lacks MSS support. The reading should be AFELEI, as indicated above.Hope this helps.Larry G. OvertonLGOberean at aol.comIn a message dated 9/5/99 7:38:26 AM Central Daylight Time, music at fl.net.au writes:<< Subj: Re: Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Date: 9/5/99 7:38:26 AM Central Daylight Time From: music at fl.net.au (David McKay) Reply-to: music at fl.net.au (David McKay) To: at franklin.oit.unc.edu (Biblical Greek) I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latin rather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information on this? I would be interested to know of a KJV rendering or two which illustrate this. David McKay muisc at fl.net.au >>

 

erasmus and rev.Cyclopedia

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI James S. Murray jsmurray at execpc.com
Sun Sep 5 19:17:14 EDT 1999

 

Cyclopedia 3 questions David McKay wrote:> I have read that some of the KJV renderings in Revelation come from Latin> rather than Greek manuscripts. Does anyone have access to any information on> this?> > I would be interested to know of a KJV rendering or two which illustrate> this.David,As others have mentioned, Erasmus was missing the last 6 verses and thereforetranslated back in to the Greek from Latin.The only example I’m aware of in Revelation is Rev. 22:19, where Erasmus had APOBIBLOU based on the Latin LIBRO instead of APO TOU XULOU. The error occurred when ascribe miscopied LIBRO (book) instead of LIGNO (tree). With both expressions beingused in the the text, it’s easy to see how this might have happened. APO BIBLOU wasin the editions used by the KJV translators.Jim MurrayRacine, WI

 

Cyclopedia3 questions

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Jonathan Robie jwrobie at mindspring.com
Mon Sep 6 14:26:58 EDT 1999

 

3 questions erasmus and rev. At 02:20 PM 9/5/99 -0500, Bob Vincent wrote:>“For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, dating from the>twelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend Reuchlin.Has that manuscript been identified? I would love to know which MS it is.Jonathan

 

3 questionserasmus and rev.

Rev 11:15 hH BASILEIA / hAI BASILEIAI Edward Hobbs EHOBBS at WELLESLEY.EDU
Mon Sep 6 19:39:04 EDT 1999

 

Rahlfs’ LXX Romans 5:15 Colleagues:Jonahan asks:>“For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, dating from the>twelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend Reuchlin.Has that manuscript been identified? I would love to know which MS it is.———————–It is cursive 1 (of Revelation, not Gospels, Acts, and Paul),which is now renumbered as 2814. It is the text of Revelation with a commentary on it by Andreas, bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia. (Thecommentary text somtimes mucks up the text of the Apocalypse, forcingErasmus to back-translate words here and there, in addition to 22:16-21which were missing (being the last leaf, frequently falling off bookseven in these modern times).My memory tells me Tregelles collated it soon after it was located by Delitzsch–must have been in the 1870’s.Edward Hobbs

 

Rahlfs’ LXXRomans 5:15

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