1 Corinthians 11 David Fox amyraut at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 17 13:23:13 EDT 2002
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Dear all,I have been looking at 1 Corinthians 11.In verses 14-15, the KJV reads, “Doth not even nature itself teach you,that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman havelong hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering”while the Greek reads, “H OUDE AUTH hH FUSIS DIDASKEI hUMAS, hOTI ANHR MENEAN KOMA, ATIMIA AUTO ESTI? GUNH DE EAN KOMA, DOXA AUTH ESTIN? hOTI hHKOMH ANTI PERIBAIOU DEDOTI AUTH;”Which would be translated as, “Does not even nature itself teach you that,if a man have long hair, it is a shame to him? But if a woman has longhair, is it a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.”Some say it could even be translated, “Even nature itself does not teachyou, that, if a man has long hair, it is a shame to him, etc.”What is the proper translation? And, if the KJV translators were correcthere, in which way does nature teach us that it is a shame for a man tohave long hair? And could “ANHR” and “GUNH” be translated as “husband” and”wife”?Many Thanks,David Fox
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DEHebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE
1 Corinthians 11 c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Wed Jul 17 14:18:56 EDT 2002
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE 1 Corinthians 11 on 7/17/02 10:23 AM, David Fox wrote:> I have been looking at 1 Corinthians 11.> In verses 14-15,1COR. 11:14-15 OUDE hH FUSIS AUTH DIDASKEI hUMAS hOTI ANHR MEN EAN KOMAiATIMIA AUTWi ESTIN, GUNH DE EAN KOMAi DOXA AUTHi ESTIN; hOTI hH KOMH ANTIPERIBOLAIOU DEDOTAI [AUTHi].>in which way does nature teach us that it is a shame for a man to> have long hair?This whole question hangs on Paul’s use of hH FUSIS, a complicated topic.Paul uses the term here to reflect the order of things established increation. He does not always use the term in that sense. For a very detaileddiscussion of this topic you certainly should consult *D. Wold.*Donald J. Wold, Out of Order. : Homosexuality in the Bible & the AncientNear East, Baker Books (1999), page 182. Read the whole book!Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE1 Corinthians 11
1 Corinthians 11 c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Wed Jul 17 15:34:14 EDT 2002
1 Corinthians 11 Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE on 7/17/02 11:18 AM, c stirling bartholomew wrote:> on 7/17/02 10:23 AM, David Fox wrote:> >> I have been looking at 1 Corinthians 11.>> In verses 14-15,> > 1COR. 11:14-15 OUDE hH FUSIS AUTH DIDASKEI hUMAS hOTI ANHR MEN EAN KOMAi> ATIMIA AUTWi ESTIN, GUNH DE EAN KOMAi DOXA AUTHi ESTIN; hOTI hH KOMH ANTI> PERIBOLAIOU DEDOTAI [AUTHi].> >> in which way does nature teach us that it is a shame for a man to>> have long hair?> > This whole question hangs on Paul’s use of hH FUSIS, a complicated topic. Paul> uses the term here to reflect the order of things established in creation.David,The classic Pauline passage dealing with created order and hH FUSIS isRomans 1:18-32. Pay particularly close attention to THN FUSIKHN CRHSIN andEIS THN PARA FUSIN in Romans 1:26-27.Again, find a copy of *D. Wold and see what he says about Paul’s doctrineof creation and hH FUSIS, particularly Pages 182-4.*Donald J. Wold, Out of Order. : Homosexuality in the Bible & the AncientNear East, Baker Books (1999)Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
1 Corinthians 11Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE
1 Corinthians 11 Larry Overton LGO at larryoverton.com
Thu Jul 18 09:28:13 EDT 2002
test, please ignore Ro. 8:26 1 Corinthians 11:14 – OUDEI hH FUSIS AUTH DIDASKEI hUMAS hOTI ANHR MEN EANKOMAi ATIMIA AUTWi ESTIN 11:15 – GUNH DE EAN KOMAi DOXA AUTHi ESTIN hOTI hHKOMH ANTI PERIBOLAIOU DEDOTAI [AUTHi]I echo David’s original question:>> in which way does nature teach us that it is a shame for a man to>> have long hair?Clay, your comments on Paul’s reference to the “created order and hH FUSIS”in Romans 1:26 are not that helpful here. I doubt that Paul is saying to theCorinthians that “the order of things established in creation” means longhair is a shameful thing on men. I agree with your assessment that the”whole question hangs on Paul’s use of hH FUSIS,” and that it is “acomplicated topic.” I also agree that the context of Romans 1 warrants aclose connection of FUSIS to the created order. But I would think itsomewhat of an eisegetical assumption to read that understanding into thisCorinthian passage.The typical translation of hH FUSIS AUTH is “nature itself”. This, however,seems unlikely to be what Paul had in mind. If something like “that which isnatural” (in a physical sense) is the intended meaning, then the idea oflong hair being a shame for a man does not square with the fact that lettingnature take its course means a man’s hair will grow long. Is there any(lexical) justification for understanding FUSIS here as “that which isnatural (in a cultural sense)”?Or, what about the rendering, “the appearance of things”? The abridgedLiddell-Scott lists an example of FUSIS in a line from Pindar’s Odes(specifically line 5 of Nemean Ode 6) as referring to “outward form.” Theline reads, ALLA TI PROSFEROMEN EMPAN H MEGAN NOON HTOI FUSIN AQANATOIS(“Nevertheless, we bear some resemblance either in greatness of mind or in*outward form* [FUSIN] to the immortals.”). Other examples of FUSISreferring to physical appearance, the “bodily nature”, are cited in L-S.Would such a rendering in 1 Corinthians 11:14 be stretching things a bit toomuch, or is there some merit to this?Also, the translation of ANTI in verse 15 is typically (KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB,etc.) rendered “for.” Is there a reason for this that I’m missing? I wouldthink that a more acceptable gloss would be “instead of,” which tracks withdefinitions given in lexicons from Thayer to BAGD to L-S. Also, both Darbyand Young render it so in their translations (“in lieu of” and “instead of”,respectively).Larry G. Overton—–Original Message—–From: c stirling bartholomew [mailto:cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net]Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 2:34 PMTo: Biblical GreekSubject: [] Re: 1 Corinthians 11on 7/17/02 11:18 AM, c stirling bartholomew wrote:> on 7/17/02 10:23 AM, David Fox wrote:> >> I have been looking at 1 Corinthians 11.>> In verses 14-15,> > 1COR. 11:14-15 OUDE hH FUSIS AUTH DIDASKEI hUMAS hOTI ANHR MEN EAN KOMAi> ATIMIA AUTWi ESTIN, GUNH DE EAN KOMAi DOXA AUTHi ESTIN; hOTI hH KOMH ANTI> PERIBOLAIOU DEDOTAI [AUTHi].> >> in which way does nature teach us that it is a shame for a man to>> have long hair?> > This whole question hangs on Paul’s use of hH FUSIS, a complicated topic.Paul> uses the term here to reflect the order of things established in creation.David,The classic Pauline passage dealing with created order and hH FUSIS isRomans 1:18-32. Pay particularly close attention to THN FUSIKHN CRHSIN andEIS THN PARA FUSIN in Romans 1:26-27.Again, find a copy of *D. Wold and see what he says about Paul’s doctrineof creation and hH FUSIS, particularly Pages 182-4.*Donald J. Wold, Out of Order. : Homosexuality in the Bible & the AncientNear East, Baker Books (1999)Clay–Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/You are currently subscribed to as: [lgo at larryoverton.com]To unsubscribe, forward this message to$subst(‘Email.Unsub’)To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu
test, please ignoreRo. 8:26
1 Corinthians 11 Clwinbery at aol.com Clwinbery at aol.com
Thu Jul 18 21:16:36 EDT 2002
Beginning Grammars-dark ages 1 Corinthians 11 In a message dated 7/18/02 6:00:42 PM, LGO at larryoverton.com writes:omission>The typical translation of hH FUSIS AUTH is “nature itself”. This, however,>seems unlikely to be what Paul had in mind. If something like “that which>is natural” (in a physical sense) is the intended meaning, then the idea of>long hair being a shame for a man does not square with the fact that letting>nature take its course means a man’s hair will grow long. Is there any>(lexical) justification for understanding FUSIS here as “that which is>natural (in a cultural sense)”?> omissionOUDE hH FUSIS AUTH DIDASKEI hUMAS . . .In this context it seems we must translate “nature itself.” The use of AUTH demands it.>>Is there any>(lexical) justification for understanding FUSIS here as “that which is>natural (in a cultural sense)”?<<Rom. HMEQA TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS “We were by nature (in our natural state) children of wrath.” BDAG amply illustrates this meaning.Carlton WinberyLouisiana College
Beginning Grammars-dark ages1 Corinthians 11
1 Corinthians 11 jburke at sprint.com.au jburke at sprint.com.au
Thu Jul 18 21:23:58 EDT 2002
1 Corinthians 11 FWS hILARON Hi Larry,> The typical translation of hH FUSIS AUTH is “nature itself”. This, however,seems unlikely to be what Paul had in mind. > True. But isn’t there a meaning of FUSIS which applies to an establishedpattern of behaviour or custom? That would make more sense, given the factthat in Paul’s day short hair was de rigeur for men.> Is there any (lexical) justification for understanding FUSIS here as “thatwhich is natural (in a cultural sense)”?> I was pretty sure there was. I’ll have to go and check LSJ9 again.Jonathan Burke.——————————————————————–mail2web – Check your email from the web athttp://mail2web.com/ .
1 Corinthians 11FWS hILARON
1 Corinthians 11 David Fox amyraut at hotmail.com
Fri Jul 19 10:56:43 EDT 2002
Acts 20:28 – dia tou haimatos tou idiou Locative/Instrumental Jay Green’s ‘Modern King James’ translates verse 15 as, “But if a woman should have long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hairis given to her in place of a veil.”David Fox
Acts 20:28 – dia tou haimatos tou idiouLocative/Instrumental