1 John 5:7

[] Comma Johanneum SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com
Tue Jul 22 07:56:49 EDT 2003

 

[] LInguistic question on Luke 1:1 [] Use of AIRW in John 15:2 GreetingsI am looking for a picture of the “Comma Johanneum”. Do we have such a thing on the web out there?thanks so muchJeff FisherTel Aviv

 

[] LInguistic question on Luke 1:1[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2

[] Comma SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com
Tue Jul 22 08:21:40 EDT 2003

 

[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2 [] Comma In a message dated 7/22/2003 12:57:18 PM W. Central Africa Standard , SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com writes:> Greetings> I am looking for a picture of the “Comma Johanneum”. Do we have such a > thing > on the web out there?> > thanks so much> Jeff Fisher> Tel AvivLet me clarify….it was my understanding that an early copy of the vulgate had the text writtin in the margin….at least Metzger suggests this….do we have a picture of such a text?

 

[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2[] Comma

[] Comma SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com
Tue Jul 22 09:22:37 EDT 2003

 

[] Comma [] Use of AIRW in John 15:2 Sorry GroupAs I continue to research the Comma from 1 John on the web, I see that my question was quite ignorant.Please excuse meJeff FisherTel Aviv, Israel

 

[] Comma[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2

[] Comma Kevin W. Woodruff cierpke at prodigy.net
Tue Jul 22 09:43:35 EDT 2003

 

[] Comma [] Comma Are you looking for the manuscript that was shown toErasmus that includes the “Comma” Codex Monfortianuswhich is at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland?Kevin> > Greetings> > I am looking for a picture of the “Comma> Johanneum”. Do we have such a > > thing > > on the web out there?> > > > thanks so much> > Jeff Fisher> > Tel Aviv=====Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M. Div., M. S. I. S.Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and GreekTennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)Cierpke at prodigy.net http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

 

[] Comma[] Comma

[] Comma Gergely Juhasz Gergely.Juhasz at arts.kuleuven.ac.be
Tue Jul 22 12:00:02 EDT 2003

 

[] Comma [] Comma Dear Jeff,You probably mean the Codex Montfortianus (ms. 61. ) preserved in Trinity College, Dublin (shelfnumber: MS. 30). This ms has been identified as the one used by Erasmus for his famous third edition of his Greek-Latin NT (gamma 1522). This edition is remarkable for the inclusion of the three heavenly witnesses in 1 John 5,7 which Erasmus had promised to his opponents to insert if the passage could be found in a Greek ms. The required authority was discovered in England (see Erasmus’ Annot. in loc.) so he fulfilled his promise. The ms in question has been identified as the Codex Montfortianus which at the time was probably owned (or even produced by) the English Franciscans (see Rendel Harris, Origin of the Leicester Codex, 1887, pp. 46-48). The Franciscans at Antwerp, too, were said to have possessed another ms in which the words were added by a later hand in the margin.If it is any help, I made a transcription of the passage when I examined the ms in Dublin. I kept the linebreaks, but I left out accents here for the sake of conformity to format. Letters within [] are abbreviated in the original. Note that the short passage includes other variant readings, too, that were _not_ followed by Erasmus:folio 439r :[…] OUTOS ESTIN O ELQWN DI’UDATOS, KAIAIMATOS KAI PN[EUMATO]S AGIOU, I[HSOU]S O C[RISTO]S. OUK EN TWi UDATI MONONALL’EN TWi UDATI KAI AIMATI. KAI TO PN[EUM]A ESTI TO MAPTUROUN OTI O C[RISTO]S ESTIN ALHQEIA. OTI TREIS EISIN OI MARTUROUNT[ES] EN TWi OU[RA]NWi. P[AT]HR, LOGOS, KAI PN[EUM]A AGION.KAI OUTOI OI TREIS EN EISI. KAI TREIS EISIN OI MARTUROUNT[ES] EN THi GHi PN[EU]MA, UDWP, KAI AIMA.[…]Erasmus’s text in his third edition of the Novum Testamentum (1522) reeds as follows:p. 522:[…] OUTOS ESTIN O ELQWN DI’UDATOS, KAI AIMATOS IHSOUS CRISTOS. OUK EN TWi UDATI MONONALL’EN TWi UDATI KAI TWi AIMATI. KAI TO PNEUMA ESTI TO MAPTUROUN, OTI TO PNEUMA ESTIN H ALHQEIA. OTI TREIS EISIN OI MARTUROUNTES EN TWiOURANWi, PATHR, LOGOS, KAI PNEUMA AGION. KAIOUTOI OI TREIS EN EISI. KAI TREIS EISIN OI MARTUROUNTES EN THi GHi PNEUMA, KAI UDWP, KAI AIMA[…]I also have a scan of Erasmus’ text (only pages 522-523), which I can send you if you are interested. The scan is copyrighted (for a book we pulished last year but at the end this scan did not make it into the book) so it can be only used for private purposes.Reagards,Gergely Juhasz–Juhász GergelyKatholieke Universiteit LeuvenFaculteit Letteren, Engelse LiteratuurBlijde Inkomststraat 21, 04.24B-3000, Leuven, BELGIUMTel: + 32 16 32.48.79Fax: + 32 16 32.50.68gergely.juhasz at arts.kuleuven.ac.be

 

[] Comma[] Comma

[] Comma SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com
Tue Jul 22 12:04:20 EDT 2003

 

[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2 [] Re: Comma In a message dated 7/22/2003 2:44:10 PM W. Central Africa Standard T, cierpke at prodigy.net writes:> Are you looking for the manuscript that was shown to> Erasmus that includes the “Comma” Codex Monfortianus> which is at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland?> > KevinActually, I was not really sure what I was looking for…but the more I research the subject…the more intricate it becomes….I guess what I would really like to see is an early copy of the Latin Vulgate with a comma written in the margin…but maybe this does not exist?Jeff FisherTel Aviv, Israel

 

[] Use of AIRW in John 15:2[] Re: Comma

[] Re: Comma Steve Puluka spuluka at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 22 22:06:24 EDT 2003

 

[] Comma [] Re: Comma on 7/22/03 12:04 PM, SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com at SDBIBLESTUDY at aol.com wrote:> Actually, I was not really sure what I was looking for…but the more I> research the subject…the more intricate it becomes….I guess what I would> really like to see is an early copy of the Latin Vulgate with a comma written> in the margin…but maybe this does not exist?Dear Jeff,You may want to read the excellent appendix on this topic in Raymond Brown’scommentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series. In thesection on the Latin Textual tradition he notes: “If we try to go backbeyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma wasincluded in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate inSpain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in themargin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidoreof Seville (early seventh century).”Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Commafrom the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.I would infer from the wording “beyond the evidence” above that the marginalnote here and in Metzger is an assumption based on the existing texts anddiscussions in patristic literature and not an observation of a particularmanuscript. You could research the manuscripts listed by Brown and Brooketo confirm the existence of the marginal note. In any case, Brown’sappendix is well worth the read.– Steve PulukaMaster’s StudentSS Cyril & Methodius SeminaryPittsburgh, PAhttp://www.geocities.com/spuluka

 

[] Comma[] Re: Comma

[] Re: Comma Schmuel schmuel at escape.com
Tue Jul 22 23:25:02 EDT 2003

 

[] Re: Comma [] Re: Comma Hi ,Jeff>> Actually, I was not really sure what I was looking for…but the more I>> research the subject…the more intricate it becomes….I guess what I would>> really like to see is an early copy of the Latin Vulgate with a comma written>> in the margin…but maybe this does not exist?Steve Puluka wrote:>Dear Jeff,>You may want to read the excellent appendix on this topic in Raymond Brown’s>commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series. In the>section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes: “If we try to go back>beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma was>included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in>Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in the>margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore>of Seville (early seventh century).”> >Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma>from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p>156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.> >I would infer from the wording “beyond the evidence” above that the marginal>note here and in Metzger is an assumption based on the existing texts and>discussions in patristic literature and not an observation of a particular>manuscript. You could research the manuscripts listed by Brown and Brooke>to confirm the existence of the marginal note. In any case, Brown’s>appendix is well worth the read.SchmuelExcellent information thanks..There are a couple of extant earlier Vulgate manuscripts without the Comma, as I understand, probably before the marginal note you reference, 2 or 3 total ?On this verse, Bruce Metzger and/or Daniel Wallace tend to bypass a whole bunch of patristic references, most in Latin but some in Greek, so I would be very cautious on that aspect.And do they reference at all the Vulgate “Prologue to the Canonical Epistles” about which John Gill says “Jerome… complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.”Here is Westcott and Hort on the passage, (as they are quite anti-Comma, we should not be surprised by “falsely professing”)http://www.1john57.com/westcotthort.htm”A prologue to the Catholic Epistles, falsely professing to be written by Jerome,impugns the fidelity of Latin translators, accusing them especially of having placed in their text the ‘three words’ aquae sanguinis et spiritus only, and omitted Patris et Filii et Spiritus testimonium. This extraordinary production is found in the Fulda MS written at Capua in 546,7 (E. Ranke in his ed. p. viii), the biblical text of which is free from the interpolation, as well as in many later MSS, and probably belongs to the Vigilian period and literature. Even after Cent. VI the references to the inserted words are few till Cent. XI. “Jerome’s Vulgate ” Prologue to the Canonical Epistles” is in the Gutenberg Bible at the British Library http://prodigi.bl.uk/gutenbg/search.aspAnd there is also Jerome’s teacher Gregory of Nazianzus – 390 AD who perhaps givesus a precursor to the controversy that Jerome is referencing in the Prologue,since he apparently discusses the grammar of the passage. (Personally I have some skepticism about the claim that the Prologue is not from Jerome, IF the style and content fit Jerome, and the nay-sayers are in conjecture-land. I would be especially concerned about circularity…”how could Jerome write that, it references the Johanine Comma, which did not exist”. I did contact a couple of scholars, with only cordial and unsure response.)And I found a number of good sites on the Comma, one I highly recommendedhttp://www.1john57.com/jcindex.htm The Johannine Comma ArchivesShalom,Steven AveryQueens, NYschmuel at escape.comwww.messiahresearch.comMessianic_Apologetic-subscribe at yahoogroups.comhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

 

[] Re: Comma[] Re: Comma

[] Re: Comma Jason Hare jason at jhronline.com
Wed Jul 23 02:28:18 EDT 2003

 

[] Re: Comma [] Comma Johanneum–Enough already! ,I hate to be a naysayer, but I think this has onceagain steered off track. This thread seems to belosing it’s “GREEK” feel and getting into a “TEXTCRIT”mode. I would just ask that we steer back on the topicor take it to the textcrit list. I know that I have no authority. I just feel that thisis getting a little off-topic.Regards,Jason— Schmuel <schmuel at escape.com> wrote:> Hi ,> > Jeff> >> Actually, I was not really sure what I was> looking for…but the more I> >> research the subject…the more intricate it> becomes….I guess what I would> >> really like to see is an early copy of the Latin> Vulgate with a comma written> >> in the margin…but maybe this does not exist?> > Steve Puluka wrote:> >Dear Jeff,> >You may want to read the excellent appendix on this> topic in Raymond Brown’s> >commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor> Bible series. In the> >section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:> “If we try to go back> >beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not> clear that the Comma was> >included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus> edited the Vulgate in> >Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the> Comma was written in the> >margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or> before the time of Isidore> >of Seville (early seventh century).”> >> >Brown provides the list of seven Spanish> manuscripts that contain the Comma> >from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote> to Brooke, Epistles p> >156-58 for a listing of post 10th century> manuscripts.> >> >I would infer from the wording “beyond the> evidence” above that the marginal> >note here and in Metzger is an assumption based on> the existing texts and> >discussions in patristic literature and not an> observation of a particular> >manuscript. You could research the manuscripts> listed by Brown and Brooke> >to confirm the existence of the marginal note. In> any case, Brown’s> >appendix is well worth the read.> > Schmuel> Excellent information thanks..> > There are a couple of extant earlier Vulgate> manuscripts without the Comma, > as I understand, probably before the marginal note> you reference, 2 or 3 total ?> > On this verse, Bruce Metzger and/or Daniel Wallace> tend to bypass a whole > bunch of patristic references, most in Latin but> some in Greek, so I would be > very cautious on that aspect.> > And do they reference at all the Vulgate “Prologue> to the Canonical Epistles” about which > John Gill says “Jerome… complains of the> omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.”> > Here is Westcott and Hort on the passage, > (as they are quite anti-Comma, we should not be> surprised by “falsely professing”)> > http://www.1john57.com/westcotthort.htm> “A prologue to the Catholic Epistles, falsely> professing to be written by Jerome,impugns the> fidelity of Latin translators, accusing them> especially of having placed in their text the ‘three> words’ aquae sanguinis et spiritus only, and omitted> Patris et Filii et Spiritus testimonium. This> extraordinary production is found in the Fulda MS> written at Capua in 546,7 (E. Ranke in his ed. p.> viii), the biblical text of which is free from the> interpolation, as well as in many later MSS, and> probably belongs to the Vigilian period and> literature. Even after Cent. VI the references to> the inserted words are few till Cent. XI. “> > Jerome’s Vulgate ” Prologue to the Canonical> Epistles” is in the Gutenberg Bible at > the British Library> http://prodigi.bl.uk/gutenbg/search.asp> > And there is also Jerome’s teacher Gregory of> Nazianzus – 390 AD who perhaps gives> us a precursor to the controversy that Jerome is> referencing in the Prologue,> since he apparently discusses the grammar of the> passage. > > (Personally I have some skepticism about the claim> that the Prologue is not from Jerome, IF the style> and content fit Jerome, and the nay-sayers are in> conjecture-land.> I would be especially concerned about> circularity…”how could Jerome write that, > it references the Johanine Comma, which did not> exist”. I did contact a couple> of scholars, with only cordial and unsure> response.)> > And I found a number of good sites on the Comma, one> I highly recommended> http://www.1john57.com/jcindex.htm > The Johannine Comma Archives> > Shalom,> Steven Avery> Queens, NY> > > schmuel at escape.com> www.messiahresearch.com> Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe at yahoogroups.com> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/ > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Re: Comma[] Comma Johanneum–Enough already!

[] Comma Johanneum–Enough already! Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Jul 23 05:53:13 EDT 2003

 

[] Re: Comma [] Re: Use of AIRW in John 15:2 The original message here was a request for a pointer to graphic of thepassage so-called in a NT MS; respondents have made this an occasion fordisgorging more and more historical facts as well as judgments on thisage-old bit of history of the MS tradition; please let’s stick to mattershaving to do with the Greek language and text of the NT, LXX and relatedliterature.– Carl W. ConradCo-Chair, ListDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

 

[] Re: Comma[] Re: Use of AIRW in John 15:2
Calvin on 1 Jn 5:7-8 Rodney J. Decker rdecker at bbc.edu
Wed Oct 27 07:43:53 EDT 1999

 

re. Matt 11:25 & 29 word order In re. to the famous Johannine comma, someone pointed out to me recentlythat “Calvin says it was in the best MSS in his day.” (Implying, I suspect[based on his follow up question], some sinister conspiracy that hasdestroyed all those MSS since that time! 🙂 So I checked Calvin’s comm. onthe passage, and sure enough, he says: “as I see that it is found in thebest and most approved *copies,* I am inclined to receive it as the truereading” (ad loc., my emphasis). Calvin’s editor has a note that hesuspects Calvin to be referring to *printed editions,* not to Greek MSS(1855 ed. by John Owen). That would certainly make sense given that it wasincluded in the 3d, 4th, & 5th editions of Erasmus and, so far as I know,most (all?) the later editions based on Erasmus (Stephanus and Bezae atleast). So, my question: is the editor’s suggestion a viable explanation?Is there anything to be gained from checking the word that Calvin used inhis original (I presume, Latin? though it could have been French, Isuppose)? I.e., does the word the Owen translated as “copies” have atechnical reference? (This is, I suppose, best suited for the txt. crit.list, but I’m not subscribed there, and it does relate to the Greek text.)Thanks for any info,Rod****************************************************Rodney J. Decker, Th.D. Baptist Bible SeminaryAssoc. Prof./NT PO Box 800, Clarks Summit, PA 18411rdecker at bbc.edu http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/The *Resources for NT Study* site is accessible at:http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/rd_rsrc.htm****************************************************

 

re. Matt 11:25 & 29word order

Calvin on 1 John 5:7-8 Carlton Meredith 113164.2404 at compuserve.com
Fri Oct 29 04:11:10 EDT 1999

 

trinity vocabulary the second subjunctive John 15:8 On Wednesday, October 27, 1999, Rod Decker (rdecker at bbc.edu) wrote:>>In re. to the famous Johannine comma, someone pointed out to me recentlythat “Calvin says it was in the best MSS in his day.” (Implying, I suspect[based on his follow up question], some sinister conspiracy that hasdestroyed all those MSS since that time! 🙂 So I checked Calvin’s comm. onthe passage, and sure enough, he says: “as I see that it is found in thebest and most approved *copies,* I am inclined to receive it as the truereading” (ad loc., my emphasis). Calvin’s editor has a note that hesuspects Calvin to be referring to *printed editions,* not to Greek MSS(1855 ed. by John Owen). That would certainly make sense given that it wasincluded in the 3d, 4th, & 5th editions of Erasmus and, so far as I know,most (all?) the later editions based on Erasmus (Stephanus and Bezae atleast). So, my question: is the editor’s suggestion a viable explanation? Is there anything to be gained from checking the word that Calvin used inhis original (I presume, Latin? though it could have been French, Isuppose)? I.e., does the word the Owen translated as “copies” have atechnical reference? (This is, I suppose, best suited for the txt. crit.list, but I’m not subscribed there, and it does relate to the Greek text.)>>Thanks for any info,>>RodRod,Very interesting questions!Calvin’s French translation of 1 John 5:7-8 (conserving sixteenth-centuryFrench orthography) and comments (in current modern-spelling French) on thetextual problem are as follows:”7. Car il y en a trois qui donnent tesmoignage au ciel, le Père, laParole, et le sainct Esprit: et ces trois sont un.”8. Aussi y en a-il trois qui donnent tesmoignage en la terre, _asçavoir_l’Esprit, l’eau, et le sang: et ces trois sont un (ou, en un).””Tout ceci a été omis par quelques-uns, ce que S. JEROME pense avoir étéfait plus par malice que par ignorance ou mégarde, et seulement par leslatins. Mais d’autant que les livres grecs même ne s’accordent l’un avecl’autre, à grand-peine en osé-je rien affirmer. Toutefois, parce que lefil du texte coule très bien si cette phrase y est ajoutée, et que je voisqu’elle se trouve dans les meilleurs et les plus corrects exemplaires, pourma part je la reçois volontiers. Or le sens sera que. . . .”Calvin calls his sources here *the Greek books themselves* (*les livresgrecs même*) and *copies* (*exemplaires*), and notes that they are notagreed among themselves. (I suppose we can assume that the variousprintings of the Greek text in Calvin’s day all would have included theJohannine Comma.) Judging from Calvin’s language, it seems probable thathe had a number of actual Greek manuscripts (and doubtless also at leasthis printed Latin text) available to him, and that he examined them andnoted their conflicting testimony in preparing his comments here.Calvin decided in favor of the authenticity of the Johannine Comma, albeitwith difficulty (*à grand-peine en osé-je rien affirmer*). He based hisdecision on objective criteria (*les meilleurs et les plus correctsexemplaires*), with an interesting reference to Jerome’s opinion on theomission of the Comma (that its omission was probably due to malicious,deliberate excision rather than to ignorance or inattention). (Note, inpassing, Calvin’s respect for Jerome.)It seems clear to me that Calvin is talking here about actual manuscripts,and is not just referring to recently printed Latin and (Erasmus’s) Greektexts as giving conflicting testimony as to the inclusion of the Comma(unless there was variation among the printed texts of Calvin’s day, whichdoes not seem to me likely). Calvin’s 1855 editor, John Owen, would not becorrect, then, in his suspicion that Calvin is merely referring to printededitions.It also seems clear that Calvin had given thought to criteria fordistinguishing between manuscripts whose testimony conflicted as to thereading of the Greek text. He sides with the *better* and *more correct*copies.What would be interesting indeed would be to know exactly which manuscriptsCalvin would have been able to use.It would also be interesting to know if (and where) Calvin explains how heevaluated the quality of a manuscript. Calvin, of course, lived in apre-critical age, at the time of transition between manuscripts and printedtexts, some 150-200 years before the first hesitating efforts atformulating a set of scientific canons for textual criticism.As for a _sinister conspiracy that has destroyed all those MSS since thattime_ which you smilingly mention, I would doubt that there was anydeliberate destruction of whatever Greek manuscripts Calvin used. Theyshould still be around (many of them, at least, if not all).Carlton MeredithBiblical Seminary of Brussels

 

trinity vocabularythe second subjunctive John 15:8

[] 1 John 5:7-8 variants Greg Sahlstrom gs at stormlash.net
Mon Jun 15 18:12:50 EDT 2009

 

[] Absent Definite Article strips Personality from The Holy Spirit‏ [] Top Ten Reasons to avoid the term “Attic Reduplication” I noticed that the 2nd edition of Metzger’s “A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament” mentions eight manuscripts for the variant (addition), but lists only seven manuscripts. On the other hand, the 1st edition lists manuscript number 635, while NA27 lists manuscript number 636. Did Metzger omit manuscript 636 from the 2nd edition, and is manuscript 635, listed in Metzger’s 1st edition, the same as 636 (but later renumbered)?Greg Sahlstrom

 

[] Absent Definite Article strips Personality from The Holy Spirit‏[] Top Ten Reasons to avoid the term “Attic Reduplication”