1Thess 3:13 Steve Amato samato at cfa.harvard.edu
Fri Jul 2 13:26:46 EDT 1999
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] DE in I John 1:3 (was Re: Periphrastic construction in I John 1:4) I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess 3:12,13 as”May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you.””May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.” (NIV)but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is “may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not necessarily related to vs 12.But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.Steve
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]DE in I John 1:3 (was Re: Periphrastic construction in I John 1:4)
1Thess 3:13 Steve Amato samato at cfa.harvard.edu
Fri Jul 2 13:26:46 EDT 1999
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] DE in I John 1:3 (was Re: Periphrastic construction in I John 1:4) I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess 3:12,13 as”May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you.””May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.” (NIV)but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is “may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not necessarily related to vs 12.But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.Steve
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]DE in I John 1:3 (was Re: Periphrastic construction in I John 1:4)
1Thess 3:13 Carl Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jul 2 17:39:37 EDT 1999
I am looking for a Russian “Greek” [Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] On 07/02/99, “”Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:> I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess3:12,13 as”May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and foreveryone else, just as ours does for you.””May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all hisholy ones.” (NIV)but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate an optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is so rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.
I am looking for a Russian “Greek”[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]
1Thess 3:13 Carl Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jul 2 17:39:37 EDT 1999
I am looking for a Russian “Greek” [Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] On 07/02/99, “”Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:> I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess3:12,13 as”May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and foreveryone else, just as ours does for you.””May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all hisholy ones.” (NIV)but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate an optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is so rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.
I am looking for a Russian “Greek”[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]
1Thess 3:13 MikeBzley at aol.com MikeBzley at aol.com
Sat Jul 3 05:17:29 EDT 1999
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] 1Thess 3:13 In a message dated 02/07/99 22:40:26 GMT Daylight Time, cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> On 07/02/99, “Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:> > I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess> 3:12,13 as> > “May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for> everyone else, just as ours does for you.”> “May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in > the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his> holy ones.” (NIV)> > but “strengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. > Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?> > No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and > PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate an > optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the > very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is so > rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.In no way do I wish to be construed as disagreeing with Carl, however it seems to me that Steve was asking a rather different question from that which Carl answered.Steve’s original question was about STHRIXAI not PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI. He said:>but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in Vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. >Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?> >It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is >“may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not >necessarily related to vs 12.> >But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer >of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.It seems to me to be a very fair question. The NIV is treating the verses as though they are parallel constructions, which they aren’t. IMHO the second is clearly the end towards which the first is aimed. A T Robertson says of the second verse, “To the end he may stablish ([eis to sterixai]). Another example of [eis] and the articular infinitive of purpose. Same idiom in #3:2|. From [sterizo], from [sterigx], a support.”I like the BBE translation, “12And the Lord give you increase of love in fullest measure to one another and to all men, even as our love to you; 13So that your hearts may be strong and free from all sin before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”Mike Beazley
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]1Thess 3:13
1Thess 3:13 MikeBzley at aol.com MikeBzley at aol.com
Sat Jul 3 05:17:29 EDT 1999
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] 1Thess 3:13 In a message dated 02/07/99 22:40:26 GMT Daylight Time, cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> On 07/02/99, “Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:> > I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates 1Thess> 3:12,13 as> > “May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for> everyone else, just as ours does for you.”> “May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in > the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his> holy ones.” (NIV)> > but “strengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. > Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?> > No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and > PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate an > optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the > very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is so > rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.In no way do I wish to be construed as disagreeing with Carl, however it seems to me that Steve was asking a rather different question from that which Carl answered.Steve’s original question was about STHRIXAI not PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI. He said:>but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in Vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative. >Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?> >It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is >“may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not >necessarily related to vs 12.> >But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer >of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.It seems to me to be a very fair question. The NIV is treating the verses as though they are parallel constructions, which they aren’t. IMHO the second is clearly the end towards which the first is aimed. A T Robertson says of the second verse, “To the end he may stablish ([eis to sterixai]). Another example of [eis] and the articular infinitive of purpose. Same idiom in #3:2|. From [sterizo], from [sterigx], a support.”I like the BBE translation, “12And the Lord give you increase of love in fullest measure to one another and to all men, even as our love to you; 13So that your hearts may be strong and free from all sin before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”Mike Beazley
[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]1Thess 3:13
1Thess 3:13 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Jul 3 06:17:48 EDT 1999
1Thess 3:13 [Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] At 5:17 AM -0400 7/3/99, MikeBzley at aol.com wrote:>In a message dated 02/07/99 22:40:26 GMT Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >> On 07/02/99, “Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:>> > I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates>1Thess>> 3:12,13 as>> >> “May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for>> everyone else, just as ours does for you.”>> “May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in>> the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his>> holy ones.” (NIV)>> >> but “strengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative.>> Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?>> >> No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and>> PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate>an>> optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the>> very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is>so>> rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.> >In no way do I wish to be construed as disagreeing with Carl, however it>seems to me that Steve was asking a rather different question from that>which Carl answered.> >Steve’s original question was about STHRIXAI not PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI.>He said:> >>but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in Vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative.>>Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?>> >>It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is>>“may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not>>necessarily related to vs 12.>> >>But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer>>of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.> >It seems to me to be a very fair question. The NIV is treating the verses as>though they are parallel constructions, which they aren’t. IMHO the second>is clearly the end towards which the first is aimed. A T Robertson says of>the second verse, “To the end he may stablish ([eis to sterixai]). Another>example of [eis] and the articular infinitive of purpose. Same idiom in>#3:2|. From [sterizo], from [sterigx], a support.”> >I like the BBE translation, “12And the Lord give you increase of love in>fullest measure to one another and to all men, even as our love to you; 13So>that your hearts may be strong and free from all sin before our God and>Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”I’m sorry; I missed the essential point about STHRIXAI. Yes, this iscertainly an infinitive; in this instance it is articular and used with EISin a typical purpose/result construction (EIS + articular infinitive isjust about identical in meaning with hWSTE + infinitive, if not wholly so).I think then, that a more literal version would be “so as to confirm yourhearts (as) blameless in holiness before God …” I got confused anddidn’t really understand the import of the whole question.I should add that, while I don’t generally like the NIV and I do thinkthere’s a slight distortion of the original Greek here, I don’t think it isa real misrepresentation of the intent of the original: Paul expresses hiswish regarding what the Lord should do to the Thessalonians–PLEONASAI andPERISSEUSAI–and then in the purpose constructions indicates what the endresult of those wishes would be–STHRIXAI. But isn’t that pretty muchequivalent to saying that what he really wishes that the Lord shouldultimately do is “confirm …”? That is to say, the purpose expressionreally is a completion of Paul’s prayer and expression of what he wants tohappen to the Thessalonians.In stylistic terms, I think this is rather characteristic of Paul. ComparePhil. 1:9-11: KAI TOUTO PROSEUCOMAI, hINA hH AGAPH hUMWN ETI MALLON KAIMALLON PERISSEUSHi EN EPIGNWSEI KAI PASHi AISQHSEI EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMASTA DIAFERONTA, hINA HTE EILIKRINEIS KAI APROSKOPOI EIS hHMERAN CRISTOU. Inthis instance Paul expresses a very similar sequence of hope/prayer for hisaddressees; here, instead of the optatives of wish/prayer, he uses a hINAsubjunctive clause which is NOT a purpose clause but a substantive clausein apposition to TOUTO, then proceeds to an EIS + articular infinitivepurpose/result construction (EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS …) and concludeswith a hINA purpose subjunctive clause expressing the eschatologicalculmination to which he looks forward as the ultimate objective of hiswish/prayer. That is: he starts out with “I want this to happen so that Xmay happen, so that all may come for you ultimately to the righteschatological consummation; the purpose is really part of the wish/prayer.And if this is the case, then I don’t think the NIV has reallymisinterpreted the writer’s intent.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
1Thess 3:13[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]
1Thess 3:13 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Jul 3 06:17:48 EDT 1999
1Thess 3:13 [Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48] At 5:17 AM -0400 7/3/99, MikeBzley at aol.com wrote:>In a message dated 02/07/99 22:40:26 GMT Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >> On 07/02/99, “Steve Amato” <samato at cfa.harvard.edu>” wrote:>> > I wonder if someone might be able to tell me why the NIV translates>1Thess>> 3:12,13 as>> >> “May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for>> everyone else, just as ours does for you.”>> “May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in>> the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his>> holy ones.” (NIV)>> >> but “strengthen” (or “establish”) in vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative.>> Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?>> >> No: this is the relatively rare optative 3d sg., both PLEONASAI and>> PERISSEUSAI, expressing a wish, and “may” is the normal way to translate>an>> optative. It is true that the active infinitives would, in fact, have the>> very same forms, but these are unquestionably optatives. The optative is>so>> rare in the NT that many NT Greek books don’t even teach it.> >In no way do I wish to be construed as disagreeing with Carl, however it>seems to me that Steve was asking a rather different question from that>which Carl answered.> >Steve’s original question was about STHRIXAI not PLEONASAI and PERISSEUSAI.>He said:> >>but “stengthen” (or “establish”) in Vs 13 is infinitive, not indicative.>>Shouldn’t it be “to strengthen (or “to establish”) your hearts”?>> >>It seems to me that the effect on the interpretation is that if it is>>“may”, then Paul is just listing another thing he is praying, not>>necessarily related to vs 12.>> >>But if it is “to”, then the strengthening would be an effect of the answer>>of Paul’s prayer in vs 12, rather than a separate prayer.> >It seems to me to be a very fair question. The NIV is treating the verses as>though they are parallel constructions, which they aren’t. IMHO the second>is clearly the end towards which the first is aimed. A T Robertson says of>the second verse, “To the end he may stablish ([eis to sterixai]). Another>example of [eis] and the articular infinitive of purpose. Same idiom in>#3:2|. From [sterizo], from [sterigx], a support.”> >I like the BBE translation, “12And the Lord give you increase of love in>fullest measure to one another and to all men, even as our love to you; 13So>that your hearts may be strong and free from all sin before our God and>Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”I’m sorry; I missed the essential point about STHRIXAI. Yes, this iscertainly an infinitive; in this instance it is articular and used with EISin a typical purpose/result construction (EIS + articular infinitive isjust about identical in meaning with hWSTE + infinitive, if not wholly so).I think then, that a more literal version would be “so as to confirm yourhearts (as) blameless in holiness before God …” I got confused anddidn’t really understand the import of the whole question.I should add that, while I don’t generally like the NIV and I do thinkthere’s a slight distortion of the original Greek here, I don’t think it isa real misrepresentation of the intent of the original: Paul expresses hiswish regarding what the Lord should do to the Thessalonians–PLEONASAI andPERISSEUSAI–and then in the purpose constructions indicates what the endresult of those wishes would be–STHRIXAI. But isn’t that pretty muchequivalent to saying that what he really wishes that the Lord shouldultimately do is “confirm …”? That is to say, the purpose expressionreally is a completion of Paul’s prayer and expression of what he wants tohappen to the Thessalonians.In stylistic terms, I think this is rather characteristic of Paul. ComparePhil. 1:9-11: KAI TOUTO PROSEUCOMAI, hINA hH AGAPH hUMWN ETI MALLON KAIMALLON PERISSEUSHi EN EPIGNWSEI KAI PASHi AISQHSEI EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMASTA DIAFERONTA, hINA HTE EILIKRINEIS KAI APROSKOPOI EIS hHMERAN CRISTOU. Inthis instance Paul expresses a very similar sequence of hope/prayer for hisaddressees; here, instead of the optatives of wish/prayer, he uses a hINAsubjunctive clause which is NOT a purpose clause but a substantive clausein apposition to TOUTO, then proceeds to an EIS + articular infinitivepurpose/result construction (EIS TO DOKIMAZEIN hUMAS …) and concludeswith a hINA purpose subjunctive clause expressing the eschatologicalculmination to which he looks forward as the ultimate objective of hiswish/prayer. That is: he starts out with “I want this to happen so that Xmay happen, so that all may come for you ultimately to the righteschatological consummation; the purpose is really part of the wish/prayer.And if this is the case, then I don’t think the NIV has reallymisinterpreted the writer’s intent.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
1Thess 3:13[Fwd: Tense of TETAGMENOI in Acts 13:48]