An Exegetical Analysis of Εἰς in 1 Thessalonians 4:15: Temporal Implications for the Parousia
This exegetical study of An Exegetical Analysis of Εἰς in 1 Thessalonians 4:15: Temporal Implications for the Parousia is based on a b-greek discussion from Fri Mar 5 11:58:54 est 2010.
The initial inquiry centers on the theological implications of Paul’s use of the preposition εἰς (eis) with the noun παρουσία (parousia) in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, particularly concerning the timing of the eschatological event often referred to as the “rapture.” The question arises whether εἰς should be rendered with a sense of definite temporal arrival such as “to,” “till,” “until,” or “up to,” suggesting an early expectation within the παρουσία, or with a more durative or indefinite sense like “for” or “during,” leaving the precise timing less determined.
The main exegetical issue revolves around the precise semantic range of εἰς when used with παρουσίαν, especially in conjunction with the participle οἱ περιλειπόμενοι. Key grammatical considerations include the nature of παρουσία itself (whether it denotes a punctiliar “coming” or a durative “presence/state”), the grammatical function of οἱ περιλειπόμενοι (substantival or nominative absolute participle), and whether this participle exhibits a “stative” quality that might influence or “override” the typical transitive force of εἰς. The discussion explores whether an understanding of these Greek grammatical nuances can provide clearer insight into the temporal relationship between the rapture event and Christ’s παρουσία.
Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας·
Key differences with SBLGNT (2010):
- The Nestle 1904 Greek text of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 is identical to the SBLGNT (2010) edition.
Textual Criticism (NA28)
The textual tradition for 1 Thessalonians 4:15 is notably stable. The critical apparatus of the Nestle-Aland 28th edition (NA28) indicates no significant variants affecting the wording of the phrase εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου or the participle οἱ περιλειπόμενοι. The reading is consistently attested across major manuscripts, lending high confidence to the Greek text as presented.
Lexical Notes (KITTEL, BDAG)
- Εἰς (eis): BDAG (3rd ed., p. 288-292) provides an extensive range of meanings for this preposition, primarily indicating spatial or temporal direction “into,” “to,” “toward.” However, it also includes usages denoting purpose (“for the purpose of”), result (“with the result that”), and temporal duration or endpoint (“until,” “up to”). Specifically relevant here are its temporal uses, which can signify either direction toward a point in time (e.g., “until,” “up to”) or, less commonly, duration within a period (sometimes substituting for ἐν, though BDAG notes this as a less frequent usage, particularly in the temporal sense where ἐν would imply “in” or “during”). The discussion in the source material specifically refers to Wallace’s Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (pp. 358-359, 369) which details basic uses, including its potential substitution for ἐν.
- Παρουσία (parousia): BDAG (p. 780-781) defines παρουσία as “presence,” “arrival,” or “coming.” It refers to the coming of Christ as an eschatological event, often emphasizing the initial arrival (e.g., in Revelation, of Christ as conqueror). KITTEL (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. V, p. 858ff) elaborates on its background in secular Greek as the official “presence” or “visit” of a dignitary, an event characterized by both the act of arriving and the subsequent period of presence. This dual nuance – an initial event and a subsequent state – is central to the exegetical debate in the source material regarding its durative versus achievement aspect.
- Περιλειπόμενοι (perileipomenoi): This is the present middle/passive participle, nominative masculine plural, from περιλείπω. BDAG (p. 806) defines περιλείπω as “to leave behind,” and in the passive/middle, “to be left remaining,” “to remain over,” “to survive.” In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 17, it refers to “those who are left alive” or “those who remain.” The discussion raises the question of whether this participle functions as a “stative” verb, implying a state of being rather than an action, which could influence the interpretation of the accompanying preposition εἰς. Wallace (pp. 412-413) provides criteria for identifying stative verbs.
Translation Variants: Grammatical and Rhetorical Analysis
The interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 hinges significantly on the precise nuance of the preposition εἰς in the phrase οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου. The central tension in translation lies between a temporal meaning of endpoint or anticipation (“until,” “up to,” “for”) and a more durative or coincident meaning (“during,” “at”).
One perspective posits that εἰς indicates a terminal point, translating as “until” or “up to.” This interpretation views the παρουσία as an event toward which the remaining living believers are directed. This is reinforced by the natural understanding of the phrase περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου as “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord,” as suggested by some commentators. This aligns with the understanding of παρουσία as an “achievement” or “semelfactive” event, marking the beginning of Christ’s return. The implication here is a definite timing, where the “rapture” event would occur at or early in the παρουσία.
Conversely, the argument is made that εἰς, in this context, might carry a durative sense, translating as “for” or “during” the παρουσία. This possibility is explored through two primary grammatical considerations. First, the nature of παρουσία itself is debated: if it is understood as a “state” or a “durative event” rather than a singular “coming,” then εἰς might accommodate a more extended temporal frame. Second, the potential “stative” quality of the participle περιλειπόμενοι is examined. While περιλείπω typically appears in the passive/middle and is not inherently a stative verb in its root meaning, its participial form in this context (referring to “those who are surviving/remaining”) describes a state of being. According to Wallace’s criteria (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 412-413), a verb’s ability to be translated with a “be verb + predicate adjective” in English could suggest a stative nuance. If περιλειπόμενοι is indeed “stative,” it is argued that it might “override” the typical transitive or directional force of εἰς, allowing for a broader temporal meaning. Furthermore, the possibility of εἰς functioning in place of ἐν (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 369) would also support a “during” translation, as ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ is often rendered “during the παρουσία.”
However, critical counterarguments are raised. Some scholars emphasize that the primary function of εἰς is directional, and when applied temporally, it signifies an endpoint of expectation. The phrase εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου would thus function adverbially, qualifying περιλειπόμενοι as “left behind in expectation of the coming of the Lord” or “with a view toward the coming.” The suggestion that περιλειπόμενοι is stative is also questioned, with arguments that its passive voice indicates an action performed upon the subject (“being left behind”) rather than an inherent state, maintaining the directional force of εἰς. The use of εἰς in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα, “to meet the Lord in the air”) further illustrates its directional force toward an event. While περιλειπόμενοι describes a state of ‘remaining alive’, the preposition εἰς with παρουσίαν most naturally points to the culmination of that state: remaining alive until the Lord’s arrival. The classical usage of παρουσία, referring to the initial stage of an appearance (e.g., an orator’s first sight), also lends support to interpreting it as a more punctiliar or initiation event, rather than a prolonged state.
Conclusions and Translation Suggestions
The exegetical analysis of εἰς in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 reveals a complex interplay of grammatical and lexical nuances that bear directly on the temporal understanding of the Lord’s παρουσία. While arguments for a durative “for” or “during” translation exist, primarily by interpreting παρουσία as a state and περιλειπόμενοι as stative, the prevailing grammatical and contextual evidence favors a more directional or terminal temporal sense for εἰς. The participle περιλειπόμενοι, though describing a state of ‘remaining alive,’ does not conclusively transform the inherent directional force of εἰς when referring to a future event like the παρουσία. Rather, the phrase suggests an expectation or duration *up to* the point of Christ’s arrival. The common temporal usage of εἰς as “until,” combined with the understanding of παρουσία as an event of “coming” or “arrival,” provides a more cohesive reading.
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…we, the living, who remain until the coming of the Lord…
This translation emphasizes εἰς as a temporal marker indicating the endpoint of the believers’ remaining on earth, coinciding with the Lord’s arrival.
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…we, the living, who are left behind in expectation of the Lord’s arrival…
This rendering captures the adverbial nuance of εἰς qualifying the state of “being left behind” with a view towards the future event of the παρουσία.
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…we, the living, who are surviving up to the presence of the Lord…
This option combines the durative sense of “surviving” with a temporal endpoint for εἰς, reflecting the period leading directly to and culminating in the Lord’s presence.
Here we go Ricky Grimsley Terry Wiles exactly what the BIBLE tells us here about Rapture in the original Greek Jerome Herrick Weymouth can also see WHY mid-trib is a NO GO – literally
Here we go grandma Louise Which verse exactly in 2 Thes 1 Link Hudson ?
Troy Day what about which verse?
1 Thes 4:15 – look at OP and the picture pls
Troy Day you are probably asking a question about another thread. If you want to ask something pls. Be clear about it
I am very clear about it You just never specified the 2 Thes verse you were referring to
Troy Day In another thread I asked how you reconcile pretrib with I Thess. 1. The whole chapter. The church will be here when Jesus comes back.
Yes and thank you Which verse in 1 Thes 1?
Sorry, II Thessalonians 1– typo when I was typing on the phone earlier.
These verses:
2 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Chaper 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Why would the church be here to receive rest when Jesus comes back “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God”?
If chapter 1 is about the pre-trib rapture, how is the passage consistent with the pre-trib theory? Why would Jesus be coming back with fire executing vengence on them that know not God if these people are supposed to enjoy a time of peace with the beast making a peace treaty with Israel.
If chapter is about the second coming, why wouldn’t the ‘coming of our Lord Jesus Christ’ in chapter 2:1 refer to the same events described in chapter 1?
are you basing this on 1-2 particular verses or the whole 2 chapters ???
The whole thing
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ is enough proof for me then http://probible.net/2-thessalonians-22/
In 2nd Thessalonians 2: 3—4.
you tell them grandam Louise you tell them
Troy Day Why don’t you quote the poster you agree with and decipher what they are saying if you don’t think posters here will understand. A page of conflicting opinions is not a good answer. Kind of like saying, “See the Talmud.”
2 Thessalonians 2: 4. Verses three and four and several verses is talking about the revaluing of the antichrist. I don’t remember us talking about the antichrist. We mostly was discussing of Jesus coming in the air. He wouldn’t come all the way back to earth. That would be the Resurrection of the Saints. To meet Him in the air. I understood Link was calling it the second Coming of Christ. I was explaining. The first Coming. Was when He was born and grew up and died on the Cross for our sins. The Meeting Jesus in the air was not the second Coming. Because He is not Coming all the way to earth. But the Second Coming. Would be when He Comes Riding On White Horses. With the Saints Of God following Him on White Horses. When he comes to fight the war against Satan and ungodly people. And reign a Thousand years here on earth. But Satan will be bound that thousand years. But that’s what I considered the Second Coming. That’s the kind of thing I remembered discussing. I don’t know exalts what he didn’t agree with. Maybe he will remember. That’s how I understand the first and second Coming of the Lord.
Louise Cummings Paul says the dead will be alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15. That happens when Jesus comes back in I Thessalonians, right immediately before the rapture.
We know that Jesus will come back down to earth. Where does it say He will come partway down, then go back up, and then down again? If we know from the Bible He is coming down, and we rise to meet him, and He returns with His saints, doesn’t it make sense that we meet Him on the way down?
Should we complicate the theory with things the Bible does not teach?
That deals with the antichrist. But I believe the Church will be gone at that time. I gave him a Scripture, that talked about where the dead in Christ will rise first. And we which are alive will be Change , in a moment , in a Twinkling Of an eye. And be caught up together. To meet the Lord in the air. That would be what I would be called Pre Trib. That’s where I believe the church, will be taken up. To meet The Lord In The Air. Before the antichrist will or can , reveal himself.
Link Hudson when Christ comes for the Church. And Christians. Meet Him in the air. We will be in Heaven with the Lord at least, seven years, while the Tribulations is going on here on earth. For at least seven years. Before Jesus comes back to earth, ridding on Whit Horse. And the Raptured Saints will be following Him on White horses. That’s the second Coming. That’s isn’t up and down. Up and down. He only came once as a baby, grew up up until He was in His Thirys , think around this 33 years old when He died on the cross. The raised up from the grave. The third day. And minister to His disciples about 40 days. Before He descended back to heaven. And has been there at least, 2,000 thousand years He will com back to earth again. , Ridding on white horse. And the Raptured Saints following Him. And He will bind the devil. And Jesus will rule a on earth at least a thousand years. We talked about so much. I don’t remember going 1 Cor. 15. You will have to tell me what it was about. But that time line between. Each thing , is not like up and down to me. You will have to explain. What you mean , again to me. I looked back. To read over the Scriptures. They was gone. I thought They must not have agreed. I couldn’t find it.i hope the other brother I was writing to. Understood.
Before the Rapture. We are suppose to be preaching, trying to get people saved. It’s just like it is no. We are living now before the Rapture.so if The Lord doesn’t Change a lot of people. And they get saved. We are suppose to be praying Reading the Bible. Doing. All we can for the Lord. We
What part are you talking about in 1 Corinthians 15?
Louise Cummings
I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
His coming is the ‘parousia’. The rapture and resurrection occur when Jesus comes back.
Where does the Bible teach that Jesus comes part-way back or comes back again and again after His ascension?
again cherry picking – jumping from verse to verse with no established thelogiX – pls present your full eschatological plan ie what follows after what
Well you have to go back and see the chapter is talking about. Some didn’t believe Jesus was risen from them dead. Some still doesn’t. But Hr did. They are just saying if Christ didn’t rise from the dead. Erase 12 says some among you doesn’t believe in the The Resurrection Of The dead. The Sadducees, didn’t believe in the Resurrection Of The dead. They was explaining. If Christ hasn’t been Resurrected. How then can we be Resurrected. And if Christ hasn’t been Resurrected. Or Risen from the dead. Then our preaching is vain. In verse 15. Yea, we are being false witness of God. He goes on down to tell us. If Christ hasn’t been raised from the dead. Then we can’t be either. But Christ has risen from the dead. And we will be risen also. And after HE HAS RISEN. AND WE WILL TOO AT RESURRECTION DAY. WE ARE STILL WAITING for that to happen.
Jesus told us we would have one. And I believe it will happen. Any day now.
The Lord told us to be watching and praying.For in such an hour as we think not. He will come. If we are not watching and praying. We might not be ready. But that’s what that chapter is taking about. Verse 51. Proves that everyone will not be sleeping. In this case dead. But we shall be changed In a moment in the twinkling of an eye. At the last trump. For the Trumpet shall sound. And the dead shall be raised. Incorruptible. And we shall be changed For this corruptible , must put on incorruptible, and this mortal must put on immortaality. I can’t write it all. But in 1 sr Thessalonians. That’s when it says we will be caught up in the air. The rest of the Corinthians is explaining after Jesus Resurrection. He tells us how it will be if we believe in Christ. He tells us hoe it will be at the Rapture. Then Ge tells us verse 58. Tells us how to be living until His Rapture.
I have to stop so many times. But will get back to it.
We are still not told exactly which verse in 2 Thes 1 – just general reference without much exegesis put into it
I mostly read in 1 st Thessalonians. But if you want to go to 2 Nd Thessalonians. 2: 1. The first verse , Now we beseech you, Brethren, by the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him. ( I think this phrase refers to the Rapture. Verse (2) as that Fay of Christ is st hand. ( I would think is after the Rapture ). Then verse (3) Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a ( departure) or falling away first. ( I think it speakers of the Rapture, in essence , says the Second Coming cannot take place until certain things happen.). And the man of sin be revealed, the sin of perdition. ( this speaks of the antichrist, who must come upon the world scene before the Second Coming. (Verse 4) is talking about the antichrist when he appears.). But Jesus won’t come back to earth until the end of all the Tribulations. I don’t remember talking about both mixed. Some about things before Jesus comes. And some talks about the antichrist, during the Tribulations. I remember talking most about 1st Thessalonians. I guess the fourth chapter. Since it refers more about rising to meet Jesus in the air. That would be Pre Trib. I don’t remember is discussing 1 st Corinthians. But if he remembers it , I guess we did. I get to thinking faster than I can write sometimes. And mess up what I meant to be putting down. I’m trying to get better on that. Then I doubt if everyone agrees with me. But I do try to put it like the Bible says.
Link Hudson I think grandma is making a great point on this verse here – very much related to pre-tRib rapture
Louise Cummings if Paul said something the coming of thebLord and our gathering to gether unto Him why would the day of Christ mean something other than that? What is the Biblical vasis for reading 2 events there?
Why does Paul associate the gathering together with the coming of Christ if it occurs 7 years prior?
Is there anything in the Bible that teaches pretrib to justify imterpreting the passage–rather unnaturally– through that theory?
Link Hudson I dont want to hijack your conv. with grandma I just want to point out that 1 Thes 4 is very very clear in the chronology of events and a total eschatological order 1 Thes 5 proceeds based on that order that Paul has established in ch. 4 so do 2 Thes 1-2 you can accept that or not but it is what the apostle Paul is saying And he knew his stuff having gone to the heavens and back Not sure how you know yours but it makes little sense
I see you are almost making a point Troy Day, but are just a little short of communicating it, from my perspective, How does the order Paul lays out fit with the theory you hold to?
II Thessalonians 2:1 also conveys an order– Jesus’ coming and our gathering together to Him. Why would pre-trib reverse that order and insert 7 years?
Does ‘parousia’ just mean whatever pre-tribbers want it to mean, depending on the passage?
I dont need to communicate it. The text itself is pretty clear as It presents a holistic eschatological plan No need to add to it unneeded humanistic explanation It’s clear
Troy Day I do not see anything about Jesus taking the church up when He descends in I Thessalonians 4.
Let us compare I Thessalonians 4 with other scripture to determine what happens at the coming of the Lord:
* The dead in Christ are resurrected and the rapture occurs.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
* At the coming of Christ, the Lord consumes the lawless one with the breath of his mouth.
II Thessalonians 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
* The sign of Christ’s coming and the gathering of the elect occurs AFTER the tribulation.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice the things that occur at the coming of the Lord.
– The rapture and resurrection
– The Lord consumes the wicked one.
(Quotes from NKJV)
Dont forget to explain v17:
will be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord
in the air
Troy Day Occam’s razor is not used in theology, but makes a valid point in this case, IMO. Since, at the coming of the Lord, the BIble shows us the saints will meet Christ in the air, and that at the coming of the Lord, the Lord will come with His saints, is there any reason to think that He will go ‘up’ instead of ‘down.’ Where is the scripture for that.
Other scripture indicates that the Lord will destroy the man of sin with the brightness of His coming, and that when Christ is revealed, He will execute judgment on them that believe not. So why say Jesus is going up instead of down?
Go back over that same Scripture in 1st Thessalonians read it all. I said in there verse 17. Will be the exact Scripture about the dead in Christ shall rise first. And we which are alive and remain , shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. And we shall be caught up together in the air. That’s where it says we will meet Him in the air. If that isn’t correct. Then I will find where it says it. I know it’s in the Bible.
Louise Cummings All that is consistent with post-trib.
Link Hudson Exactly correct.
That was I was trying to show you. By meeting in the air. I have all that written down. Just read it again and see if that isn’t what I said.
I don’t see where the Bible ever talks about post Trib. Shoe it to me.
Show. It to me.
I don’t remember ever trading in the Bible about Post Trib. Just show me where it is.
Post Trib , you wouldn’t meet the Lord in the air. Post ztrib. You would have to go up and come right back down. You are reading in the fifth Chapter. Whet the Lord told not to be confused or worried. They was worried about the ones who died.I will have to read the chapter. Before completely explaining it. But I will tell you start reading at verse nine. And you will see the difference. How Jesus explains it to them.
Louise Cummings going up and roght back down makes sense because the Bible nowhere says Jesus is coming back twice. Revelation does not have a pretrib rapture in it, just John being told come up hither.
According to Paul, at the coming of the Lord the dead in Christ will rise first and we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. But according to Paul also the man of sin will be destroyed by tge brightness of His coming so we should expect all that to happen at the same time.
I read to you about the first catching away, if you don’t want to use Pre Trib. Go to Revelation 20: 5. It the rest of y dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ( This pertains to all the unsaved, in fact all those who lived and died since the dawn of time. ). This is the First Resurrection ( proclaim that these two Resurrections is the way , Of
The Unjust will be separated by 1 thousand years. ). My phone is messing up.
Louise Cummings Wouldn’t you interpret the following passage, which occurs before the reference to the ‘first resurection’ to be about the second coming?
Revelation 19
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in[b] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule[c] them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
(ESV)
The more I read these scriptures, the more convinced I am that pre-trib is wrong.
I’ll get to this later. I’m having to get ready for a doctors appointment. It will probably be this afternoon.
I think I said in talking about Corinthians. I think I said 1st Thessalonians 2: But just trying to remember without looking. But I was wrong on that quote. It’s 1 st Thessalonians 4: 17. The actual verse.
I have verse 16 and verse 17 explained. You go back and read. You must not be reading everything I put down.
Link Hudson anytime you see gathering together. In the Bible. It’s almost , if not every time, referring to the catching away or the Rapture. The Fay of the Lord. If you will notice , it’s almost , or if not every time. It’s referring to the end time. Or the Second Coming Of The Lord. Just notice it when you are reading about gathering together. Or The Day Of The Lord. I don’t know if I have ever noticed when it wasn’t. Then we search it out to , see if that’s what it’s talking about. Because it’s possible, sometimes it might not be. It’s a good way to study it out and see. And when they are talking about the antichrist. You know that’s Tribulations. And from studying the Bible. You know Jesus won’t come until the end of the Tribulations. So that’s easy to figure out. But study that out. I could be wrong. But I don’t think so.
Now if I could read all that. I would know if I did good or bad. I wish I knew how to do it.
yes Link go read v17 explained by grandma will ya 🙂
Link Hudson just moments ago Rico Hero published the original AG statement on the rapture From what I understand one cannot be AG member and not adhere to the actual AG teaching which states
The apostle Paul spoke of the Lord’s return as a time of
judgment and wrath upon the wicked (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, he considered a different aspect of the Second
Coming. This brief passage is the most direct and clear teaching on the Rapture in the
New Testament. It speaks only of believers, living and dead. Nothing is said about the
wicked seeing Christ at this time. Paul described Jesus as coming in the air, but nothing is
said about His feet touching the earth, as we are told elsewhere they will at His return
(Zechariah 14:4). It is the moment when 1 John 3:2 will be fulfilled, and we shall be like
Him.
The same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 for “caught up” is used in
Acts 8:39 to describe Philip’s being “caught away” after baptizing the Ethiopian. The
latter verse states that the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away—identifying the source
of the power that will remove believers from earth at the Rapture.
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/pp_4182_rapture.pdf?token=AWwBLA7PundJL8_qR8RIF2rI1smr9rYwn-0lZLvV2x9zqa7vu97j5Kikcj9iTot6jwSOJCO40yOuJrIWfQuSkn6-gmZCA-Os9u3mu3lOqk2tfSW5MyitgMyqSScSBKjZpJWkEkoPUciDWFA9cyo7wbw3NxrY9VXr1ZW_LSxYrxBaHw
NO Link Hudson you wouldnt know the difference – you would want us to know that you are smarter than the people who put up out AG eschatology and somehow they missed it while you didnt Try again
Gary Micheal Epping I am also saying that the AG teaching is correct in the translation of the Greek properly rendering the rapture as a separate event from the Lord’s appearance in the Last Day
Unpack that in your own words.
I just did
No need to try and rake someone over the coals because of a denominational doctrine. Do you believe that ‘tongues are of the devil? Many baptist do.
Troy Day I do not have a lot of time to read through all that right now. But I’ve seen it before, of course, and there are different ideas and opinions in there. Which ones do you agree with, and which ones do you believe actually support whatever position you hold on this. Please summarize or at least quote the relavent sections. Which poster do you agree with, why, and which parts of it?