1 Thessalonians 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 11:58:54 EST 2010

 

[] PIGNW – APOPIGNW [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 To All: At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA?  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?  Personally, I would be happy for the timing to be definite, but, my reading of pages 358-9 on prepositions in Wallace’s GGBB has disturbed my conclusions. Please bear with me as I explain how I got to the latter conclusion of the above question: I view the PAROUSIA of Jesus as a durative event. In my view it is shorter than the PAROUSIA described by Israel P. Warren but longer than just the ERXOMAI of Jesus with power and great glory. The PAROUSIA would seem to be a “state”; whether of shorter or longer duration; rather than an “achievement” or “semelfactive” event. In my study of the PAROUSIA and the events connected with it, I note that EIS is uniquely used with PAROUSIA at 1Thess. 4:15. Now, as far as I can determine, only dependent verbal participles (circumstantial or adverbial) are grammatically subordinated to their controlling verbs (usually the main verb of the clause).  At 1 Thess. 4:15 hOI PERILEIPOMENOI is most likely an independent substantival participle and as such is not grammatically subordinated to the main verb of the sentence. It could also be a nominative absolute participle but this seems less likely.  Therefore, in the clause “hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU,” EIS would not be grammatically subordinated to the main verb of the sentence, but rather to the participle. Could the participle PERILEPOMENOI at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 be viewed as “stative” and if so, would it then, override the transitive force of the preposition EIS.  On how to identify a “stative” verb Wallace on pg. 412 of GGBB states: “The key is simple: The stative occurs either with the equative verb or one that in translation uses am + a predicate adjective.” [italics mine] So, if his observation that one could identify a Greek “stative” verb by its ability to be translated using “am” + a predicate adjective, then the following English translation would seem to allow PERILEIPOMENOI to be “stative.”: …we the living who are surviving [for the presence of the Lord…] I believe that “surviving” is in this instance a predicate adjective. In this instance, EIS might then be better reflected by the preposition “for” rather than “to.” Also, on page 369 of GGBB under heading A.) Basic Uses of EIS at usage # 8  Wallace indicates EIS could be used in place of EN with its various nuances. I.P. Warren translates EN TH PAROUSIA as “during” the PAROUSIA. This translation of EN is also allowed for in BDAG and Wallace. So I say all of the above to again ask this: If it is shown that at 1 Thess. 4:15, EIS is sandwiched between a “stative” governing verb and possibly even a stative prepositional object; which really would not necessarily influence the preposition; should it then, be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” less definite than might be allowed by the possible ramifications of the conventional translation using to/till/until/up to and viewing PAROUSIA as an “acheivement” (coming) rather than a “state”? T. Scott Lawson

 

[] PIGNW – APOPIGNW[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 5 12:30:11 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> To All:> > At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 13:00:23 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Conrad,  Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question.  You write:”I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately. You write: “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”” I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?  Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct? T. Scott Lawson  ________________________________From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AMSubject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> To All:>  > At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”>  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 5 14:29:29 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> Conrad,> > Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. > > You write:> “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.> > You write:> > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> > > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.> > Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> ________________________________> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>> To All:>> >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> >> Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > Carl W. Conrad

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 5 15:00:46 EST 2010

 

[] Textual Criticism Books [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Okay,> > Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn’t it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn’t find what you’re talking about. A page number would help. > If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.cwc> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Conrad,> > > > Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. > > > > You write:> > “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > > > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.> > > > You write:> > > > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> > > > > > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?> > It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.> > > > Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?> > Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.> > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > ________________________________> > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> >> To All:> >> > >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > > > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > > > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> > > >> Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > > > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > > > Carl W. Conrad> > > > > > Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] Textual Criticism Books[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 14:47:05 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Okay,     Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.T. Scott Lawson________________________________From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AMSubject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> Conrad,>  >  Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. >  > You write:> “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.>  > You write:>  > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> >  > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.>  >  Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> ________________________________> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>> To All:>>  >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> >>  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > Carl W. Conrad

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 5 15:47:11 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 By error on my part, the last exchange took place initially off-list. I’m correcting that here, I believe, with Mr. Lawson’s consent.On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Ah! Carl,> > I saw that you typed PARALEIPOMENOI but I assumed it was a typo on your part. You gave an accompanying bit of the text prior to your “typo” which shows it correctly as PERILEIPOMENOI.You’re right; the original text does have PERILEIPOMENOI> > PERILEIPOMENOI is not specifically discussed in Wallace. He does however, mention that the transitive force of EIS may be overriden by the “stative” nature of its controlling verb.(pg 359 paragraphs 2 and 3. He also briefly discusses how to determine that a verb is “stative.” (pp. 412-13) His method includes its ability to be translated into English with a be verb + a predicate adjective. This seem a bit strange to me and that is one reason I am seeking clarification on how to determine the “stative” nature of a Greek verb.That’s helpful — at least to know what Wallace statement you’re referring to. But on reading through what Wallace has to say here, it doesn’t seem to me that PERILEIPOMENOI is “stative.” Rather it seems to me it is strongly passive and that the EIS prepositional phrase has to be understood as qualifying it: “left behind for what?” “left behind for how long?” “left behind in expectation of what?” That brings me back to what I suggested at the outset: the “natural” way of understanding this is “left behind for/in expectation of the coming of the Lord.”> > I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I have a “cavalier” attitude toward BDAG. This is not the case. I was trying to understand your comment that I should not be so “hung up” on how to translate EIS. I’m vert interested in how it is used in this text and your comments either meant that I should stop pursuing this line of inquiry or you meant that I should seek to concentrate on the Greek nuances of the preposition. I had been told that the primary function of all lexicons is to give possible ways to translate their terms into the receptor language, rather than giving all its possible uses as may have been found in the lexicon of the minds of its original speakers/listeners.Your best guide to how EIS s used in this text has to be the careful analysis of the contexts in which EIS is used that may be similar to this usage in 1 Thess 4:15.To be perfectly honest, I think you were told the wrong thing about “the primary function of all lexicons.” I think that the primary function of lexicons is to set forth the usage of a word in the entire range of the contexts in which it is found in the language. It seems to me that you are describing a glossary, not a lexicon. A lexicon focuses precisely, I think, on what the word could havae meant to the minds of the original speakers/listeners.”> > T. Scott Lawson> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:54:22 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > > > Okay,> > > > Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.> > I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn’t it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn’t find what you’re talking about. A page number would help.> > > > > If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.> > Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.> > cwc> > > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM> > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > > Conrad,> > > > > > Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. > > > > > > You write:> > > “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > > > > > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.> > > > > > You write:> > > > > > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> > > > > > > > > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?> > > > It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.> > > > > > Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?> > > > Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.> > > > Carl W. Conrad> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > > > ________________________________> > > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> > > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > >> To All:> > >> > > >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > > > > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > > > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > > > > > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > > > > > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> > > > > >> Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > > > > > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > > > > > Carl W. Conrad> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > > > Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 16:06:22 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Ah! Carl,     I saw that you typed PARALEIPOMENOI but I assumed it was a typo on your part. You gave an accompanying bit of the text prior to your “typo” which shows it correctly as PERILEIPOMENOI.PERILEIPOMENOI  is not specifically discussed in Wallace. He does however, mention that the transitive force of EIS may be overriden by the “stative” nature of its controlling verb.(pg 359 paragraphs 2 and 3. He also briefly discusses how to determine that a verb is “stative.” (pp. 412-13) His method includes its ability to be translated into English with a be verb + a predicate adjective. This seem a bit strange to me and that is one reason I am seeking clarification on how to determine the “stative” nature of a Greek verb.I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I have a “cavalier” attitude toward BDAG. This is not the case. I had been told that the primary function of all lexicons is to give possible ways to translate their terms into the receptor language, rather than giving all its possible uses as may have been found in the lexicon of the minds of its original speakers/listeners. T. Scott Lawson________________________________From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 12:00:46 PMSubject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Okay,>  >      Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn’t it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn’t find what you’re talking about. A page number would help.> If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.cwc> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Conrad,> >  > >  Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. > >  > > You write:> > “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > > > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.> >  > > You write:> >  > > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> > > >  > > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?> > It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.> >  > >  Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?> > Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.> > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > ________________________________> > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> >> To All:> >>  > >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > > > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > > > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> > > >>  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > > > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > > > Carl W. Conrad> > > > > > Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 18:14:17 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl,   I have noted in my researching the possibility that PERILEIPOMENOI as a “stative” verb that PERILEIPOMAI occurs only in the passive as is indicated by BDAG. I understand that only transitive verbs can be passives and evidently all “stative” verbs are intransitive. Is this line of reasoning helpful in ruling out PERILEIPOMENOI  as “stative” or are other forces at work that allow PERILEIPOMENOI  to be “stative” even though normally found in the passive? Can the passive voice of a governing verb override the transitive force of a preposition just as well as the “stative” nature of a verb? Do you have any observations on Wallace’s key to identifying a “stative” by being able to translate it with a be verb + a predicate adjective? There must be something that does not involve translating it into another language to help determine if it it is “stative”. I have found a series of questions to ask about English verbs that help determine if they’re “stative”. Perhaps the same can apply to Greek?Indeed, I will continue to look for other parallel uses of EIS.Scotty________________________________From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 12:47:11 PMSubject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15By error on my part, the last exchange took place initially off-list. I’m correcting that here, I believe, with Mr. Lawson’s consent.On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > Ah! Carl,>  >      I saw that you typed PARALEIPOMENOI but I assumed it was a typo on your part. You gave an accompanying bit of the text prior to your “typo” which shows it correctly as PERILEIPOMENOI.You’re right; the original text does have PERILEIPOMENOI>  > PERILEIPOMENOI  is not specifically discussed in Wallace. He does however, mention that the transitive force of EIS may be overriden by the “stative” nature of its controlling verb.(pg 359 paragraphs 2 and 3. He also briefly discusses how to determine that a verb is “stative.” (pp. 412-13) His method includes its ability to be translated into English with a be verb + a predicate adjective. This seem a bit strange to me and that is one reason I am seeking clarification on how to determine the “stative” nature of a Greek verb.That’s helpful — at least to know what Wallace statement you’re referring to. But on reading through what Wallace has to say here, it doesn’t seem to me that PERILEIPOMENOI is “stative.” Rather it seems to me it is strongly passive and that the EIS prepositional phrase has to be understood as qualifying it: “left behind for what?” “left behind for how long?” “left behind in expectation of what?” That brings me back to what I suggested at the outset: the “natural” way of understanding this is “left behind for/in expectation of the coming of the Lord.”>  > I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I have a “cavalier” attitude toward BDAG. This is not the case. I was trying to understand your comment that I should not be so “hung up” on how to translate EIS. I’m vert interested in how it is used in this text and your comments either meant that I should stop pursuing this line of inquiry or you meant that I should seek to concentrate on the Greek nuances of the preposition. I had been told that the primary function of all lexicons is to give possible ways to translate their terms into the receptor language, rather than giving all its possible uses as may have been found in the lexicon of the minds of its original speakers/listeners.Your best guide to how EIS s used in this text has to be the careful analysis of the contexts in which EIS is used that may be similar to this usage in 1 Thess 4:15.To be perfectly honest, I think you were told the wrong thing about “the primary function of all lexicons.” I think that the primary function of lexicons is to set forth the usage of a word in the entire range of the contexts in which it is found in the language. It seems to me that you are describing a glossary, not a lexicon. A lexicon focuses precisely, I think, on what the word could havae meant to the minds of the original speakers/listeners.”>  > T. Scott Lawson> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:54:22 AM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > > > Okay,> >  > >      Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.> > I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn’t it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn’t find what you’re talking about. A page number would help.> > >  > > If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.> > Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.> > cwc> > > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM> > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > > Conrad,> > >  > > >  Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. > > >  > > > You write:> > > “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”> > > > > > I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.> > >  > > > You write:> > >  > > > “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””> > > > > >  > > > I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?> > > > It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.> > >  > > >  Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?> > > > Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.> > > > Carl W. Conrad> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > > > ________________________________> > > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> > > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> > > Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> > > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM> > > Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > > > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> > >> To All:> > >>  > > >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > > > > > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· > > > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]> > > > > > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.> > > > > > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”> > > > > >>  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?> > > > > > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.> > > > > > Carl W. Conrad> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > > > Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 5 20:18:08 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 On Mar 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> Carl, > > I have noted in my researching the possibility that PERILEIPOMENOI as a “stative” verb that PERILEIPOMAI occurs only in the passive as is indicated by BDAG. I understand that only transitive verbs can be passives and evidently all “stative” verbs are intransitive. Is this line of reasoning helpful in ruling out PERILEIPOMENOI as “stative” or are other forces at work that allow PERILEIPOMENOI to be “stative” even though normally found in the passive? Can the passive voice of a governing verb override the transitive force of a preposition just as well as the “stative” nature of a verb? > > Do you have any observations on Wallace’s key to identifying a “stative” by being able to translate it with a be verb + a predicate adjective? There must be something that does not involve translating it into another language to help determine if it it is “stative”. I have found a series of questions to ask about English verbs that help determine if they’re “stative”. Perhaps the same can apply to Greek?I really think that you’re wasting your time with that issue. The prepositional phrase EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU must function adverbially with reference to PERILEIPOMENOI. I think BDAG s.v. gets it in §2.a. α or β — probzbly α.> > > Indeed, I will continue to look for other parallel uses of EIS.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > ________________________________> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>> Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 12:47:11 PM> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> > By error on my part, the last exchange took place initially off-list. I’m correcting that here, I believe, with Mr. Lawson’s consent.> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>> >> Ah! Carl,>> >> I saw that you typed PARALEIPOMENOI but I assumed it was a typo on your part. You gave an accompanying bit of the text prior to your “typo” which shows it correctly as PERILEIPOMENOI.> > You’re right; the original text does have PERILEIPOMENOI>> >> PERILEIPOMENOI is not specifically discussed in Wallace. He does however, mention that the transitive force of EIS may be overriden by the “stative” nature of its controlling verb.(pg 359 paragraphs 2 and 3. He also briefly discusses how to determine that a verb is “stative.” (pp. 412-13) His method includes its ability to be translated into English with a be verb + a predicate adjective. This seem a bit strange to me and that is one reason I am seeking clarification on how to determine the “stative” nature of a Greek verb.> > That’s helpful — at least to know what Wallace statement you’re referring to. But on reading through what Wallace has to say here, it doesn’t seem to me that PERILEIPOMENOI is “stative.” Rather it seems to me it is strongly passive and that the EIS prepositional phrase has to be understood as qualifying it: “left behind for what?” “left behind for how long?” “left behind in expectation of what?” That brings me back to what I suggested at the outset: the “natural” way of understanding this is “left behind for/in expectation of the coming of the Lord.”> >> >> I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I have a “cavalier” attitude toward BDAG. This is not the case. I was trying to understand your comment that I should not be so “hung up” on how to translate EIS. I’m vert interested in how it is used in this text and your comments either meant that I should stop pursuing this line of inquiry or you meant that I should seek to concentrate on the Greek nuances of the preposition. I had been told that the primary function of all lexicons is to give possible ways to translate their terms into the receptor language, rather than giving all its possible uses as may have been found in the lexicon of the minds of its original speakers/listeners.> > Your best guide to how EIS s used in this text has to be the careful analysis of the contexts in which EIS is used that may be similar to this usage in 1 Thess 4:15.> To be perfectly honest, I think you were told the wrong thing about “the primary function of all lexicons.” I think that the primary function of lexicons is to set forth the usage of a word in the entire range of the contexts in which it is found in the language. It seems to me that you are describing a glossary, not a lexicon. A lexicon focuses precisely, I think, on what the word could havae meant to the minds of the original speakers/listeners.”>> >> T. Scott Lawson>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:54:22 AM>> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15>> >> On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>>> >>> Okay,>>> >>> Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI “stative” and if so does it override the force of EIS? I’m seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I’ll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.>> >> I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn’t it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn’t find what you’re talking about. A page number would help.>> >>> >>> If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I’ll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.>> >> Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.>> >> cwc>> >>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>>>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>>>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org>>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM>>> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15>>> >>> On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>>>> Conrad,>>>> >>>> Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. >>>> >>>> You write:>>>> “I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.”>>>> >>>> I’ll admit that I’ve been getting that a lot, lately.>>>> >>>> You write:>>>> >>>> “The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.””>>>> >>>> >>>> I note that “left behind” could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus …we the living who are left behind for/until – such- time – as the coming of the Lord… could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be “stative.” Are Wallace’s comments on determining a “stative” applicable here?>>> >>> It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What’s the reference for Wallace on ‘stative’ relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn’t it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: “with a view toward, looking forward to” with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.>>>> >>>> Also, it seems that you are indicating that “for” is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?>>> >>> Don’t be so hung up on how to translate it — any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.>>> >>> Carl W. Conrad>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)>>> >>>> ________________________________>>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>>>>> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>>>>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org>>>> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM>>>> Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15>>>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:>>>>> To All:>>>>> >>>>> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? >>>> >>>> Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· >>>> [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]>>>> >>>> I should say first of all that it is not our practice on to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.>>>> >>>> Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is “left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.”>>>> >>>>> Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?>>>> >>>> I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Mar 6 00:58:48 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] the easiest Greek audio ever produced in human history —– Original Message —– From: “Timothy Lawson” <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>To: “Carl Conrad” <cwconrad2 at mac.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 6. marts 2010 02:14Subject: Re: [] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15> I have noted in my researching the possibility that PERILEIPOMENOI as a > “stative” verb that PERILEIPOMAI occurs only in the passive as is indicated by > BDAG. I understand that only transitive verbs can be passives and evidently > all “stative” verbs are intransitive. Is this line of reasoning helpful in > ruling out PERILEIPOMENOI as “stative” or are other forces at work that allow > PERILEIPOMENOI to be “stative” even though normally found in the passive? Can > the passive voice of a governing verb override the transitive force of a > preposition just as well as the “stative” nature of a verb?—————IL:It is helpful to make a distinction between stative verbs and stative forms of a verb. Verbs can be put in different categories. Verbs of action, of motion, of description etc.But the perfect “tense” in Greek is often described as being stative, and that is something different.The verb PERILEIPOMAI is only used in the MP forms. Whether it is middle or passive is up to the context.It occurs two times in the NT, in 1 Thes 4:15 and 17. LSJ suggests: “to be left remaining, remain over, survive”.In 15, it is used in apposition to hOI ZWNTES, and in opposition to TOUS KOIMHQENTAS, and it refers to us who are left behind by death, i.e. we are still alive.15: ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθένταςhHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTASEIS is simply up to the point of the PAROUSIA, and in this context similar to hEWS. We are still alive, not dead, going about our business until the event of the PAROUSIA.17: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέραEPEITA hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI hAMA SUN AUTOIS hARPAGHSOMEQA EN NEFELAIS EIS APANTHSIN TOU KURIO EIS AERAThen, we, the living ones, the remaining ones, will be caught up together with them (the raised dead ones from v. 16) in/by clouds to a meeting with the Lord in air.Being alive is a state, as is remaining or surviving. Notice that ZWNTES is a present form of a stative verb “to live, be alive”. I doubt that ZAW can occur in a perfect tense.(PERI)LEIPW (leave behind) is not in itself a stative verb, but the perfect tense creates a stative form of the verb. An MP form can have a similar effect of focusing on the state or result rather than the action.Iver Larsen

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] the easiest Greek audio ever produced in human history

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 Hedrick Gary GaryH at cjfm.org
Sat Mar 6 02:01:41 EST 2010

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15 [] Textual Criticism Books Some interesting ideas here. But I just checked A GRAMMATICAL ANALYSIS OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT from Editrice Pontificio Instituto Biblico in Rome (1996), hardly a bastion of doctrinaire dispensational rapturism, and they have eis as a temporal usage with the force of “until.” A literal rendering of the Greek clause could read like this: “… we the ones living [and] the ones remaining until the arrival of the Lord ….” To try to read more into it than that, it seems to me, looks a bit forced. Maybe thesis pressure?In classical Greek (Sophocles, for example, among others), parousia could be used in the sense of the first stage of appearance. That is, when an orator made an appearance, the audience’s first sight of him was the parousia. Arndt & Gingrich cite this nuance of the term in their lexicon of the GNT (pp. 629-30). This could also be germane to a correct understanding of Paul’s meaning in this text.Gary HedrickOn Mar 5, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:> To All:> > At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? > > Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite? > > Personally, I would be happy for the timing to be definite, but, my reading of pages 358-9 on prepositions in Wallace’s GGBB has disturbed my conclusions. Please bear with me as I explain how I got to the latter conclusion of the above question:> > I view the PAROUSIA of Jesus as a durative event. In my view it is shorter than the PAROUSIA described by Israel P. Warren but longer than just the ERXOMAI of Jesus with power and great glory. The PAROUSIA would seem to be a “state”; whether of shorter or longer duration; rather than an “achievement” or “semelfactive” event.> > In my study of the PAROUSIA and the events connected with it, I note that EIS is uniquely used with PAROUSIA at 1Thess. 4:15.> > Now, as far as I can determine, only dependent verbal participles (circumstantial or adverbial) are grammatically subordinated to their controlling verbs (usually the main verb of the clause). > > At 1 Thess. 4:15 hOI PERILEIPOMENOI is most likely an independent substantival participle and as such is not grammatically subordinated to the main verb of the sentence. It could also be a nominative absolute participle but this seems less likely. > > Therefore, in the clause “hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU,” EIS would not be grammatically subordinated to the main verb of the sentence, but rather to the participle.> > Could the participle PERILEPOMENOI at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 be viewed as “stative” and if so, would it then, override the transitive force of the preposition EIS. > > On how to identify a “stative” verb Wallace on pg. 412 of GGBB states: “The key is simple: The stative occurs either with the equative verb or one that in translation uses am + a predicate adjective.” [italics mine]> > So, if his observation that one could identify a Greek “stative” verb by its ability to be translated using “am” + a predicate adjective, then the following English translation would seem to allow PERILEIPOMENOI to be “stative.”:> > …we the living who are surviving [for the presence of the Lord…]> > I believe that “surviving” is in this instance a predicate adjective.> > In this instance, EIS might then be better reflected by the preposition “for” rather than “to.”> > Also, on page 369 of GGBB under heading A.) Basic Uses of EIS at usage # 8 Wallace indicates EIS could be used in place of EN with its various nuances.> > I.P. Warren translates EN TH PAROUSIA as “during” the PAROUSIA. This translation of EN is also allowed for in BDAG and Wallace. So I say all of the above to again ask this:> > If it is shown that at 1 Thess. 4:15, EIS is sandwiched between a “stative” governing verb and possibly even a stative prepositional object; which really would not necessarily influence the preposition; should it then, be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” less definite than might be allowed by the possible ramifications of the conventional translation using to/till/until/up to and viewing PAROUSIA as an “acheivement” (coming) rather than a “state”?> > T. Scott Lawson> > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 – Release Date: 02/21/2007 3:19 PM

 

[] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15[] Textual Criticism Books