[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Mike Sangrey MSangrey at BlueFeltHat.org
Sat Dec 3 12:08:47 εστ 2005
[] Oldest Greek manuscript – New Testament [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? 1 Tim 3:4 τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi μετα πασησ SEMNOTHTOSTo what does the μετα prepositional phrase connect?Is it describing the children and therefore the children are to besubmissive and supportive of the επισκοφ and do so in a dignified andhighly respectful manner?Or, is it describing the επισκοφ who is to maintain the children in asubmissive and supportive role and to do so in a dignified manner. Thatis, the potential επισκοφ doesn’t throw hissie-fits to get the childrenunder control.It seems to me that the word σεμνοθσ doesn’t appear to make a lot ofsense to apply to children. The use of πασ makes that possibility evenmore odd. ι mention this since ι think this somewhat exegeticalquestion really boils down to a lexical semantic one. And that’s whereI’d like the help (unless someone sees a different pathway to asolution).Thanks ahead of time for your (collective) help!– Mike Sangrey (msangrey ατ BlueFeltHat.org)Exegetitor.blogspot.comLandisburg, Pa. “The first one last wins.” “α net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth.”
[] Oldest Greek manuscript – New Testament[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Sat Dec 3 15:43:31 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? On Dec 3, 2005, at 12:08 πμ, Mike Sangrey wrote:> 1 Tim 3:4> τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ > πάσης σεμνότητος> > τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ> > To what does the μετα prepositional phrase connect?ι would say that it construes with the entire participial phrase τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi; properly speaking ι think that the prepositional phrase ought to function adverbially rather than adjectivally to the τεκνα.> Is it describing the children and therefore the children are to be> submissive and supportive of the επισκοφ and do so in a dignified and> highly respectful manner?My sense is that it’s not describing the επισκοποσ or his office so much as the character of the man upon whom such an office should be bestowed, one who (among other things) keeps a firm disciplinary hold over his children.> Or, is it describing the επισκοφ who is to maintain the children in a> submissive and supportive role and to do so in a dignified manner. > That> is, the potential επισκοφ doesn’t throw hissie-fits to get the > children> under control.> > It seems to me that the word σεμνοθσ doesn’t appear to make a lot of> sense to apply to children. The use of πασ makes that possibility > even> more odd. ι mention this since ι think this somewhat exegetical> question really boils down to a lexical semantic one. And that’s > where> ι‘d like the help (unless someone sees a different pathway to a> solution).σεμνοθσ is indeed an interesting word; in older Greek (ι‘m thinking particularly of the Hippolytus of Euripides) it is hinted that σεμνοθσ is appropriate to a God but not to a human being, inasmuch as the inherent conception in that root σεβ– is the kind of reverence that is owed to a god and not to a human being. βδαγ has several instances, however, of the term as applied to human beings. ι woud understand μετα σεμνοθτοσ here in the sense “in such a manner that he is held in reverence by his children.”ι am curious to hear other opinions on this question.Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Yancy Smith υ.ω.Smith at tcu.edu
Sat Dec 3 20:11:31 εστ 2005
[] 1 Cor. 15:31-32 [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? MIke,1 Tim. 3:1-7 details the character of candidates to the episcopate. 3:1 is the heading. 3:2-3 represents the general moral character of the candidate. 3:4-5 details his character as a manager/leader of his household, 3:6 refers to his status within the Church, stipulating that he cannot be a new convert and gives the reason why, while 3:7 stipulates that outsiders must have a good opinion of him and gives the reason why. It seems to me that the phrase μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ (μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος) in this context is best understood as an adverbial phrase of manner modifying προισταμενον, which should be read either as a modal participle “he should lead” or as a complementary participle, functioning in the same way an infinitive would, as subject of δει (cf. εξειν in v. 7). The adverbial phrase of manner “with all seriousness” then refers to the way the επισκοποσ (v. 2) should manage his own household. The parenthetical statement gives the reason why the επισκοποσ should be serious about leading his own house well, “If someone does not know how to lead his own household, how will he care for the church of God?” This rhetorical question repeats essentially the language of 3:4a. Phrased to show the relationships, the verses look like thisTOU ιδιου οικου καλωσ προισταμενοστεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHMETA πασησ σεμνοθτοσ(ει δε τισ του ιδιου οικου προσθναι ουκ οιδενπωσ εκκλησιασ θεου επιμελησεται;Yancy SmithY.ω.Smith at tcu.eduBrite Divinity SchoolTexas Christian University
[] 1 Cor. 15:31-32[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
Sat Dec 3 20:34:40 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? On Dec 3, 2005, at 8:11 πμ, Yancy Smith wrote:> MIke,> 1 Tim. 3:1-7 details the character of candidates to the episcopate.> 3:1 is the heading. 3:2-3 represents the general moral character of> the candidate. 3:4-5 details his character as a manager/leader of his> household, 3:6 refers to his status within the Church, stipulating> that he cannot be a new convert and gives the reason why, while 3:7> stipulates that outsiders must have a good opinion of him and gives> the reason why. It seems to me that the phrase μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ> (μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος) in this context is best> understood as an adverbial phrase of manner modifying προισταμενον,> which should be read either as a modal participle “he should lead” or> as a complementary participle, functioning in the same way an> infinitive would, as subject of δει (cf. εξειν in v. 7). The> adverbial phrase of manner “with all seriousness” then refers to the> way the επισκοποσ (v. 2) should manage his own household. The> parenthetical statement gives the reason why the επισκοποσ should be> serious about leading his own house well, “If someone does not know> how to lead his own household, how will he care for the church of> God?” This rhetorical question repeats essentially the language of> 3:4a. Phrased to show the relationships, the verses look like this> > του ιδιου οικου καλωσ προισταμενοσ> τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGH> μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ> (ει δε τισ του ιδιου οικου προσθναι ουκ οιδεν> πωσ εκκλησιασ θεου επιμελησεται;ι would question that arrangement of the elements, which doesn’t seem to me to do justice to the sequence. Let’s put that text back together the way it stands:του ιδιου οικου καλωσ προισταμενον, τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi μετα πασησ SEMNOTHTOSIt is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as one of the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even “exercise discipline over.”What ι find somewhat difficult to grasp in your interpretation is how μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ should construe with προισταμενον back on the other side of the prepositional phrase τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi.My own sense of the tenor of this passage is that a good candidate for the episcopate must be a highly-respected disciplinarian over his own household. So ι make it, more or less, “governing his own household well, keeping his children in their subordinate role with fully-respected authority.” One might compare that with 1 Tim 5:9 and the ensuing description of hOI καλωσ προεστωτεσ πρεσβυτεροι and the discipline that is to be maintained in the congregation as a household.Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Yancy Smith υ.ω.Smith at tcu.edu
Sat Dec 3 23:43:15 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Carl said,> It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph> προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb> προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as one of> the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even “exercise> discipline over.”ι take προισταμαι to mean something like “to so influence others as to cause them to follow a recommended course of action — ‘to guide, to direct, to lead’” or as βδαγ suggest, “to manage or conduct.”> What ι find somewhat difficult to grasp in your interpretation is how> μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ should construe with προισταμενον back on the> other side of the prepositional phrase τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi.The connection of μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ, while it is certainly possible to construe it with children, as you say, with the meaning ” keeping his children in their subordinate role with fully-respected authority.” (This is the way Chrysostom uderstands the connection. Theodoret takes takes “with all σεμνοθτοσ” to mean “teaching the children every virtue.”) At the risk of looking stupid in contravening such weighty patristic readings, ι still think μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ should be taken as modifying προισταμενον and not εξοντα. Why? One, the words σεμνοθσ and the related σεμνοσ seem to represent an adult virtue in the Pastorals (not the words they couldn’t otherwise refer to a childhood virtue; this would be the sole exception in the Pastoral, however. This is not a point of grammar, but of style.) For Chrysostom (in the Homiles on 1 Tim), for example, it is often paired with σωφροσυνησ opposite joking around and almost invariably applied to the conduct of husband and wife. Two, hOSAUTWS σεμνοσ (hOSAUTWS perhaps refering to the similar serious conduct of the candidates to the elder-episcopacy in 3:1-7) enjoins a corresponding virtue upon prospective deacons in 3:8. Three, the editors of the verse in να 27 place a comma after τεξνα εξοντα εν hHUPOTAGH, which makes the construal of μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ ambiguous at best, but would seem to indicate that τεξνα εξοντα εν hHUPOTAGH interrupts the flow of thought as a specification- restatement, and perhaps the more important case of του ιδιου οικου καλωσ προισταμενον.> My own sense of the tenor of this passage is that a good candidate> for the episcopate must be a highly-respected disciplinarian over his> own household.ι am in complete agreement that this is an implication of 3:4. Certainly the writer would agree that governing his household well and having his children in good order implies this.> One might compare that with 1 Tim 5:9 and> the ensuing description of hOI καλωσ προεστωτεσ πρεσβυτεροι and the> discipline that is to be maintained in the congregation as a > household.Again, ι have no quarrel with this. After having said the above, however, ι think it is necessary to admit that the phrase is ambiguous, though verse v. 8 seems to tip the evidence in my favor. ι‘m interested in reading your always thoughtful response.Yancy SmithY.ω.Smith at tcu.eduBrite Divinity SchoolTexas Christian University
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Dec 4 04:55:48 εστ 2005
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with? On Dec 3, 2005, at 11:43 πμ, Yancy Smith wrote:> Carl said,> >> It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph>> προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb>> προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as one of>> the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even “exercise>> discipline over.”> > > ι take προισταμαι to mean something like “to so influence others as> to cause them to follow a recommended course of action — ‘to guide,> to direct, to lead’” or as βδαγ suggest, “to manage or conduct.”Well, it may be a matter of judgment here; you suggested earlier “lead by example” whereas my inclination is to see it rather as “maintain control of those under one’s authority.>> What ι find somewhat difficult to grasp in your interpretation is how>> μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ should construe with προισταμενον back on the>> other side of the prepositional phrase τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi.> > The connection of μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ, while it is certainly> possible to construe it with children, as you say, with the meaning “> keeping his children in their subordinate role with fully-respected> authority.” (This is the way Chrysostom uderstands the connection.> Theodoret takes takes “with all σεμνοθτοσ” to mean “teaching the> children every virtue.”) At the risk of looking stupid in> contravening such weighty patristic readings, ι still think μετα> πασησ σεμνοθτοσ should be taken as modifying προισταμενον and not> εξοντα. Why? One, the words σεμνοθσ and the related σεμνοσ seem to> represent an adult virtue in the Pastorals (not the words they> couldn’t otherwise refer to a childhood virtue; this would be the> sole exception in the Pastoral, however. This is not a point of> grammar, but of style.) For Chrysostom (in the Homiles on 1 Tim), for> example, it is often paired with σωφροσυνησ opposite joking around> and almost invariably applied to the conduct of husband and wife.> Two, hOSAUTWS σεμνοσ (hOSAUTWS perhaps refering to the similar> serious conduct of the candidates to the elder-episcopacy in 3:1-7)> enjoins a corresponding virtue upon prospective deacons in 3:8.> Three, the editors of the verse in να 27 place a comma after τεξνα> εξοντα εν hHUPOTAGH, which makes the construal of μετα πασησ> σεμνοθτοσ ambiguous at best, but would seem to indicate that τεξνα> εξοντα εν hHUPOTAGH interrupts the flow of thought as a specification-> restatement, and perhaps the more important case of του ιδιου οικου> καλωσ προισταμενον.Again, as ι said above, this may be a matter of judgment. βυτ ι never said that ι construed μετα σεμνοθτοσ as referring to the children as such; rather ι said ι thought it referred to the entire participial phrase τα τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi. Nor in viewing the matter thus do ι have any notion that the σεμνοθσ is here understood as a virtue of the children. ι see it rather as a quality of the potential επισκοποσ that he holds what the Romans called “auctoritas”: unquestioned respect for his superior position and right judgments.>> My own sense of the tenor of this passage is that a good candidate>> for the episcopate must be a highly-respected disciplinarian over his>> own household.> ι am in complete agreement that this is an implication of 3:4.> Certainly the writer would agree that governing his household well> and having his children in good order implies this.> >> One might compare that with 1 Tim 5:9 and>> the ensuing description of hOI καλωσ προεστωτεσ πρεσβυτεροι and the>> discipline that is to be maintained in the congregation as a>> household.> > Again, ι have no quarrel with this. After having said the above,> however, ι think it is necessary to admit that the phrase is> ambiguous, though verse v. 8 seems to tip the evidence in my favor.> ι‘m interested in reading your always thoughtful response.ι don’t see 1 Tim 3:8 being at odds with what ι‘ve suggested about 3:4. Yes it reads: διακονουσ hWSAUTWS σεμνουσ. ι guess the question is what we understand σεμνοσ to mean in this connection. λ&ν offer:88.47 σεμνοσ, η, ον:: pertaining to appropriate, befitting behavior and implying dignity and respect — ‘honorable, worthy of respect, of good character.’ διακονουσ hWSAUTWS σεμνουσ ‘helpers should be of good character’ or ‘deacons …’ 1Tm 3:8.For me the key phrase there is “implying dignity and respect” — σεμνοθσ is not a matter of being respected but of commanding respect, as ι see it. The first sense offered in βδαγ is “worthy of respect.”This may ultimately be a matter of differing judgments regarding the tenor of the entire book. My own inclination is to see 1 Tim as a whole very much concerned with holding the lines of authority and good discipline. But ι suspect judgments on this matter may well differ.Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with?
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? George φ Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Sun Dec 4 07:43:48 εστ 2005
[] (no subject) Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:08:47 -0500 Mike Sangrey<MSangrey at BlueFeltHat.org> writes:> 1 Tim 3:4> t???a ????ta ?? ?p?ta?? µet? > p?s?? seµ??t?t??> > τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ> > To what does the μετα prepositional phrase connect?> > Is it describing the children and therefore the children are to be> submissive and supportive of the επισκοφ and do so in a dignified > and> highly respectful manner?> > Or, is it describing the επισκοφ who is to maintain the children in > a> submissive and supportive role and to do so in a dignified manner. > That> is, the potential επισκοφ doesn’t throw hissie-fits to get the > children> under control.> > It seems to me that the word σεμνοθσ doesn’t appear to make a lot > of> sense to apply to children. The use of πασ makes that possibility > even> more odd. ι mention this since ι think this somewhat exegetical> question really boils down to a lexical semantic one. And that’s > where> ι‘d like the help (unless someone sees a different pathway to a> solution).> > Thanks ahead of time for your (collective) help!> > — > Mike Sangrey (msangrey ατ > BlueFeltHat.org)> Exegetitor.blogspot.com> Landisburg, Pa.> “The first one last wins.”> “α net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth.”> ______________________TOU ιδιου οικου καλωσ προισταμενον, τεκνα εχοντα εν hUPOTAGHi, μετα PASHSSEMNOTHTOSMy inclination is to construe μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ with PROISTAMENONtaking τεκνα εχοντα εν hUPOTAGHi as a parethetical expression (as, infact, the editors seem to have understood it). He is thus to “manage hisown household well with all dignity, having his children obedient.”georgegfsomsel___________
[] (no subject)Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with? Roe d.roe at t-online.de
Sun Dec 4 08:46:49 εστ 2005
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with? Carl wrote:> > It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph> > προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb> > προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as one of> > the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even “exercise> > discipline over.”Yancy responded:> ι take προισταμαι to mean something like “to so influence others as> to cause them to follow a recommended course of action to guide,> to direct, to lead” or as βδαγ suggest, “to manage or conduct.”Hi everyone,Is it possible to apply βδαγ‘s second definition for προισθμι to verse5 — “to have an interest in, show concern for, care for, give aid”?ει δε τισ του ιδιου οικου προσθναι ουκ ουδεν, πωσ εκκλησιασ θεουεπιμελησεται (1 Tim. 3:5)That is, if we assume the author intends with προσθναι a sense thatcorresponds to επιμελησεται (whose only other ντ use concerns the goodSamaritan “taking care of” the wounded man), then verse 5 seems to saythat if one does not even rightly care for his family, how could he beexpected to care for his brethren in the congregation — with PROISTHMImeaning here “to care for” or “to actively give help.”Thanks for your comments,DavidD.ω. RoeRheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with?
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with? Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Dec 4 08:54:34 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with? [] (no subject) On Dec 4, 2005, at 8:46 αμ, Roe wrote:> Carl wrote:> >>> It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph>>> προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb>>> προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as one of>>> the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even >>> “exercise>>> discipline over.”> > Yancy responded:> >> ι take προισταμαι to mean something like “to so influence others as>> to cause them to follow a recommended course of action — ‘to guide,>> to direct, to lead’” or as βδαγ suggest, “to manage or conduct.”> > > Hi everyone,> > Is it possible to apply βδαγ‘s second definition for προισθμι to > verse> 5 — “to have an interest in, show concern for, care for, give aid”?> > ει δε τισ του ιδιου οικου προσθναι ουκ ουδεν, πωσ εκκλησιασ θεου> επιμελησεται (1 Tim. 3:5)> > That is, if we assume the author intends with προσθναι a sense that> corresponds to επιμελησεται (whose only other ντ use concerns the good> Samaritan “taking care of” the wounded man), then verse 5 seems to say> that if one does not even rightly care for his family, how could he be> expected to care for his brethren in the congregation — with > προισθμι> meaning here “to care for” or “to actively give help.”But if that’s the case here, what should we understand μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ to mean in conjunction with it? βδαγ offers as the fundamental sense of σεμνοθσ, “a manner or mode of behavior that indicates one is above what is ordinary and therefore worthy of special respect.”Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignitygo with?[] (no subject)
Re: [] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Yancy Smith υ.ω.Smith at tcu.edu
Sun Dec 4 09:15:22 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? [] υηωη into Greek > > On Dec 4, 2005, at 8:46 αμ, Roe wrote:> > > Carl wrote:> >> >>> It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph> >>> προισταμενον rather than προισταμενοσ. My sense of the verb> >>> προισταμαι is not so much “lead” (although that’s offered as > one of> >>> the primary meanings) so much as “govern” or “rule” or even> >>> “exercise> >>> discipline over.”> >> > Yancy responded:> >> >> ι take προισταμαι to mean something like “to so influence > others as> >> to cause them to follow a recommended course of action — ‘to guide,> >> to direct, to lead’” or as βδαγ suggest, “to manage or conduct.”> >> >> > Hi everyone,> >> > Is it possible to apply βδαγ‘s second definition for προισθμι to> > verse> > 5 — “to have an interest in, show concern for, care for, give aid”?> >> > ει δε τισ του ιδιου οικου προσθναι ουκ ουδεν, πωσ εκκλησιασ θεου> > επιμελησεται (1 Tim. 3:5)> >> > That is, if we assume the author intends with προσθναι a sense that> > corresponds to επιμελησεται (whose only other ντ use concerns the > good> > Samaritan “taking care of” the wounded man), then verse 5 seems > to say> > that if one does not even rightly care for his family, how could > he be> > expected to care for his brethren in the congregation — with> > προισθμι> > meaning here “to care for” or “to actively give help.”> > But if that’s the case here, what should we understand μετα πασησ> σεμνοθτοσ to mean in conjunction with it? βδαγ offers as the> fundamental sense of σεμνοθσ, “a manner or mode of behavior that> indicates one is above what is ordinary and therefore worthy of> special respect.”ι agree with Carl here. ι would add that ι believe επιμελησεται does relate to a secondary meaning of προσθναι, essentially it is a synonym of that secondary meaning. However, ι think that in the first two instances the emphasis is on leading/managing a household. The virtue of proper household management of all subordinates on the part of fathers: wife, children, slaves was seen as a necessary prequalification for civic leaders, since, in the broadly accepted Aristotelian tradition of understanding the household as a microcosm of the state, one could not hope to effectively rule at a higher level what one could not rule/manage at a lower level. ι have not checked Philodemus _On Household Management_ translated by one of my profs Dr. David Balch, to see if he, as a representative of an Epicurean tradition used the same sort of language or whether it preferred softer terms like επιμελησεται. However, the understanding of προισθναι as rule/govern/manage (ι know that my range of understanding of this term is different from e-mail to e-mail, but ι see the word as representing an idea more or less covered by these terms) also suggested the less overtly authoritarian επιμελησεται. The weaker term makes the author’s rhetorical point more powerful. It does not, however, ι think, imply that the church is not seen to be structured hierarchically in terms of status distinctions.Yancy SmithY.ω.Smith at tcu.eduBrite Divinity SchoolTexas Christian University
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?[] υηωη into Greek
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? Iver Larsen iver at larsen.dk
Mon Dec 12 15:06:20 εστ 2005
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with? [] 1 Cor. 15:31-32 Hi, Mike,ι have been away from the office for more than a week, but wanted to say a bit about your question.Most, if not all, respondents appear to favour your second option that σεμνοθσ refers to an attitude of the father rather than the children. However, ι can see no compelling grammatical, semantic or contextual reason for this, apart from the comma added by the editors of the Greek ντ. The majority of English versions including ρσβ and νιβ take it to refer to the children.> τεκνα εξοντα εν hUPOTAGHi μετα πασησ σεμνοθτοσ> > To what does the μετα prepositional phrase connect?> > Is it describing the children and therefore the children are to be> submissive and supportive of the επισκοφ and do so in a dignified and> highly respectful manner?> > Or, is it describing the επισκοφ who is to maintain the children in a> submissive and supportive role and to do so in a dignified manner. That> is, the potential επισκοφ doesn’t throw hissie-fits to get the children> under control.> > It seems to me that the word σεμνοθσ doesn’t appear to make a lot of> sense to apply to children. The use of πασ makes that possibility even> more odd. ι mention this since ι think this somewhat exegetical> question really boils down to a lexical semantic one. And that’s where> ι‘d like the help (unless someone sees a different pathway to a> solution).ι don’t see any problem with the word referring to the children (ι assume they are teenagers rather than toddlers). Carl quoted βδαγ as saying this about σεμνοθσ: “a manner or mode of behavior that indicates one is above what is ordinary and therefore worthy of special respect.”α potential elder ought to be able to have brought up his children so that they are not only obedient to him, but also behave in a way that causes others to respect them. They ought to be better behaved than average children of non-Christian parents.The parallel text in Tit 1:7 also has a composite description of the children. First they need to be τεκνα πιστα (faithful/believing children) and then they should not be “accusable” of ασωτια (immorality) or being ανυποτακτα (insubordinate).Grammatically, it also seems preferable to me that both prepositional phrases refer to the immediately preceding topic of children rather than one referring to children and the other to the further removed topic of the father’s behaviour.Iver Larsen
[] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?[] 1 Cor. 15:31-32