[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue May 30 11:45:20 EDT 2006
[] Need Help [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOUTHRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we mayobserve the commandments)’?2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the precedingverse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.Oun Kwon.
[] Need Help[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue May 30 12:12:45 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … On 5/30/06, Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:<clipped>> I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.> For clarification. My confusion is in understanding what commandmentis when I see an apparent circularity.Here the text says the love of God is keeping His commandments, whileHis commandment says (in the two great commandments) ‘Love your Godand your neighbour’.Oun Kwon
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue May 30 12:36:34 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Your question reminds me of what I was reading just yesterday from the introduction to Moulton & Milligan. It states A corresponding caution must be observed in connexion with the construction of hINA. Classical Greek has taught us to expect that hINA construed with the subjunctive denotes purpose, but in Hellenistic Greek this has been extended to include a consecutive usage, and sometimes, as in modern Greek, a simple statement of fact. When, therefore, in Jn 17.3 the Fourth Evangelist writesAUTH DE ESTIN hH AIWNIOS ZWH hINA GINWSKWSI SE TON MONON ALHQINON QEON KAI hON APESTEILAS IHSOUN XRISTON it is of course possible that by the latter clause he means us to understand our Lord as pointing to the knowledge of God as the aim and end of eternal life. But it is equally permissible, and more in accord with contemporary usage, to interpret the words as defining the contents of the eternal life: this life is a life consisting in, and maintained by, the knowledge of God, and of Him whom God had sent. george gfsomsel _________Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote: 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOUTHRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we mayobserve the commandments)’?2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the precedingverse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.Oun Kwon.— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/georgegfsomsel_________———————————How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue May 30 13:01:10 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] Silva details? On May 30, 2006, at 12:36 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> Your question reminds me of what I was reading just yesterday from > the introduction to Moulton & Milligan. It states> > A corresponding caution must be observed in connexion with the > construction of hINA. Classical Greek has taught us to expect that > hINA construed with the subjunctive denotes purpose, but in > Hellenistic Greek this has been extended to include a consecutive > usage, and sometimes, as in modern Greek, a simple statement of > fact. When, therefore, in Jn 17.3 the Fourth Evangelist writes— > AUTH DE ESTIN hH AIWNIOS ZWH hINA GINWSKWSI SE TON MONON ALHQINON > QEON KAI hON APESTEILAS IHSOUN XRISTON it is of course possible > that by the latter clause he means us to understand our Lord as > pointing to the knowledge of God as the aim and end of eternal > life. But it is equally permissible, and more in accord with > contemporary usage, to interpret the words as defining the contents > of the eternal life: this life is a life consisting in, and > maintained by, the knowledge of God, and of Him whom God had sent.> > george> gfsomsel> _________While George’s response is a propos and certainly applicable to the question, I’m not sure that it fully resolves all of the questions Oun is raising. Let me try to expand on it a bit.> Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:> 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOU> THRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN> > 1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we may> observe the commandments)’?No; it is certainly NOT a purpose clause here, but rather a substantive clause that could be Englished either as a correspondingly-formulated (literal) English substantive clause, “that we should observe his instructions” or as an infinitive, “to observe his instructions,” or even (perhaps preferable) as a gerund: “observing his instructions”> 2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the preceding> verse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’hAUTH refers forward to the substantive clause beginning with hINA; you may English the whole structure thus: “THIS is what love of God is: observing his instructions.”> 3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?> > Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.The “cautionary note” that George cited from the M&M introduction (melts in you mind, not on your tongue 😉 ) is really worth taking closely to heart. Most (if not all) first-year NT Koine Greek textbooks do not adequately explain the range of hINA clauses in NT Koine Greek usage. My sense is that it’s one of the things a NT Greek reader probably learns by accident or not at all.The M&M intro note also constates one of my annoyingly-repeated claims: one comes to know Biblical Greek better by learning more about stages of Greek earlier than and later than the NT Koine.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] Silva details?
[] 1 John 5:3 KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN Jonathan Robie jwrobie at mindspring.com
Sun Mar 25 07:03:08 EDT 2007
[] Iterative, Customary, Gnomic, Conative, etc. [] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version I have a question about how the clause KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN (καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν) relates to the other clauses in the sentence. Are the following two understandings equally plausible?1. It modifies the preceding clauses of the sentencehAUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU, hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOU THRWMEN KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN, (αὕτη γάρ ἐστιν ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὰσ ἐντολὰσ αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν,)Understood this way, I think the point would be that it’s not just keeping his commandments, but keeping them out of the kind of love that turns this obedience into something that is not burdensome, in the same way that doing something for my daughters or my girlfriend is not burdensome, even if it is work, because it is done out of love.2. It starts a new thoughtKAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN, hOTI PAN TO GEGENNHMENON EK TOU QEOUNIKAi TON KOSMON KAI hAUTH ESTIN hH NIKH hH NIKHSASA TON KOSMON, hH PISTIS hHMWN.(καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν, ὅτι πᾶν τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ νικᾷ τὸν κόσμον καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ νίκη ἡ νικήσασα τὸν κόσμον, ἡ πίστις ἡμῶν.)Understood this way, I think it would say that the reason his commandments are not burdensome is that our faith, which overcomes the world, also keeps the commandments from being burdensome because the burden is caused by our struggle with the world, and we will be victorious in that struggle.Of course, this all applies with the first interpretation as well. So the real question is whether the first interpretation is a valid way to interpret the relationships among the clauses.Thoughts?Jonathan
[] Iterative, Customary, Gnomic, Conative, etc.[] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version
[] 1 John 5:3 KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Mar 25 08:36:13 EDT 2007
[] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version [] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version I don’t know, perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re asking. Let me put it in a more modern format to see if it makes it more understandable.hAUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU, hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOU THRWMEN (1)___________(1) [KAI] hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN,Consider it as a footnote remarking upon the footnoted text. georgegfsomsel_________—– Original Message —-From: Jonathan Robie <jwrobie at mindspring.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 7:03:08 AMSubject: [] 1 John 5:3 KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISINI have a question about how the clause KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN (καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν) relates to the other clauses in the sentence. Are the following two understandings equally plausible?1. It modifies the preceding clauses of the sentencehAUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU, hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOU THRWMEN KAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN, (αὕτη γάρ ἐστιν ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὰσ ἐντολὰσ αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν,)Understood this way, I think the point would be that it’s not just keeping his commandments, but keeping them out of the kind of love that turns this obedience into something that is not burdensome, in the same way that doing something for my daughters or my girlfriend is not burdensome, even if it is work, because it is done out of love.2. It starts a new thoughtKAI hAI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN, hOTI PAN TO GEGENNHMENON EK TOU QEOU NIKAi TON KOSMON KAI hAUTH ESTIN hH NIKH hH NIKHSASA TON KOSMON, hH PISTIS hHMWN.(καὶ αἱ ἐντολαὶ αὐτοῦ βαρεῖαι οὐκ εἰσίν, ὅτι πᾶν τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ νικᾷ τὸν κόσμον καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ νίκη ἡ νικήσασα τὸν κόσμον, ἡ πίστις ἡμῶν.)Understood this way, I think it would say that the reason his commandments are not burdensome is that our faith, which overcomes the world, also keeps the commandments from being burdensome because the burden is caused by our struggle with the world, and we will be victorious in that struggle.Of course, this all applies with the first interpretation as well. So the real question is whether the first interpretation is a valid way to interpret the relationships among the clauses.Thoughts?Jonathan— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ ____________________________________________________________________________________TV dinner still cooling? Check out “Tonight’s Picks” on Yahoo! TV.http://tv.yahoo.com/
[] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version[] Free, online Greek paradigms quiz, version
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue May 30 11:45:20 EDT 2006
[] Need Help [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOUTHRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we mayobserve the commandments)’?2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the precedingverse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.Oun Kwon.
[] Need Help[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue May 30 12:12:45 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … On 5/30/06, Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:<clipped>> I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.> For clarification. My confusion is in understanding what commandmentis when I see an apparent circularity.Here the text says the love of God is keeping His commandments, whileHis commandment says (in the two great commandments) ‘Love your Godand your neighbour’.Oun Kwon
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue May 30 12:36:34 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Your question reminds me of what I was reading just yesterday from the introduction to Moulton & Milligan. It states A corresponding caution must be observed in connexion with the construction of hINA. Classical Greek has taught us to expect that hINA construed with the subjunctive denotes purpose, but in Hellenistic Greek this has been extended to include a consecutive usage, and sometimes, as in modern Greek, a simple statement of fact. When, therefore, in Jn 17.3 the Fourth Evangelist writesAUTH DE ESTIN hH AIWNIOS ZWH hINA GINWSKWSI SE TON MONON ALHQINON QEON KAI hON APESTEILAS IHSOUN XRISTON it is of course possible that by the latter clause he means us to understand our Lord as pointing to the knowledge of God as the aim and end of eternal life. But it is equally permissible, and more in accord with contemporary usage, to interpret the words as defining the contents of the eternal life: this life is a life consisting in, and maintained by, the knowledge of God, and of Him whom God had sent. george gfsomsel _________Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote: 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOUTHRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we mayobserve the commandments)’?2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the precedingverse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.Oun Kwon.— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/georgegfsomsel_________———————————How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue May 30 13:01:10 EDT 2006
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA … [] Silva details? On May 30, 2006, at 12:36 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> Your question reminds me of what I was reading just yesterday from > the introduction to Moulton & Milligan. It states> > A corresponding caution must be observed in connexion with the > construction of hINA. Classical Greek has taught us to expect that > hINA construed with the subjunctive denotes purpose, but in > Hellenistic Greek this has been extended to include a consecutive > usage, and sometimes, as in modern Greek, a simple statement of > fact. When, therefore, in Jn 17.3 the Fourth Evangelist writes— > AUTH DE ESTIN hH AIWNIOS ZWH hINA GINWSKWSI SE TON MONON ALHQINON > QEON KAI hON APESTEILAS IHSOUN XRISTON it is of course possible > that by the latter clause he means us to understand our Lord as > pointing to the knowledge of God as the aim and end of eternal > life. But it is equally permissible, and more in accord with > contemporary usage, to interpret the words as defining the contents > of the eternal life: this life is a life consisting in, and > maintained by, the knowledge of God, and of Him whom God had sent.> > george> gfsomsel> _________While George’s response is a propos and certainly applicable to the question, I’m not sure that it fully resolves all of the questions Oun is raising. Let me try to expand on it a bit.> Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:> 1Jn 5:3 AUTH GAR ESTIN hH AGAPH TOU QEOU hINA TAS ENTOLAS AUTOU> THRWMEN KAI AI ENTOLAI AUTOU BAREIAI OUK EISIN> > 1. How I should understand hINA clause? As ‘in order that (we may> observe the commandments)’?No; it is certainly NOT a purpose clause here, but rather a substantive clause that could be Englished either as a correspondingly-formulated (literal) English substantive clause, “that we should observe his instructions” or as an infinitive, “to observe his instructions,” or even (perhaps preferable) as a gerund: “observing his instructions”> 2. What does AUTH refer to? To the idea mentioned in the preceding> verse? Or ‘The love of God is this, that ~’hAUTH refers forward to the substantive clause beginning with hINA; you may English the whole structure thus: “THIS is what love of God is: observing his instructions.”> 3. Does ‘ESTIN’ copulative have nuance more than ‘is’?> > Thanks for your help. I hope this is not a beginner’s confusion.The “cautionary note” that George cited from the M&M introduction (melts in you mind, not on your tongue 😉 ) is really worth taking closely to heart. Most (if not all) first-year NT Koine Greek textbooks do not adequately explain the range of hINA clauses in NT Koine Greek usage. My sense is that it’s one of the things a NT Greek reader probably learns by accident or not at all.The M&M intro note also constates one of my annoyingly-repeated claims: one comes to know Biblical Greek better by learning more about stages of Greek earlier than and later than the NT Koine.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1Jn 5:3 AUTH … hINA …[] Silva details?