[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 12:14:45 εστ 2003
[] επι το αυτο [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order On 25 Dec 2003 at 16:40:52 -0800, Michael Tarver wrotein connection with Rev 9:14,>When we have a verb right next to a prep. that >affords us natural syntax this should be taken.ι happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have some questions.τα γαρ παντα δι‘ hUMAS, hINA hH ξαρισ πλεονασασαδια των πλεινων θν ευξαριστιαν PERISSEUSHiEIS θν δοξαν του θεου.1. Michael, in the case of Rev 9:14, your rule was applied to a fairlyextreme case. Do you see it applying equally here? What do othersthink?2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can beeither transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one*really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!Carl disussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 εστ,and suggested the following translation >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘δια θν του πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?At least six distinct constructions seem possible; can word order helpus decide which is (are) most natural?1. πλεοναζω intransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, δια τωνπολλων θν ευξαριστιαν governing περισσευω: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abudnant may, on account of thethanksgiving of the majority / many persons, abound towardthe glory of God’.2. PLEONAZWintransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, δια τωνπολλων θν ευξαριστιαν governing πλεοναζω: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abundant on account of thethanksgiving of the majority, may abound ….’Granted, these two are little different in sense. To continue …3. πλεοναζω transitive, περισσευω intransitive, δια τωνπολλων governing πλεοναζω: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving through the agency of the majority, mayabound …’.4. πλεοναζω transitive, περισσευω intransitive, δια τωνπολλων governing περισσευω: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving, may abound through the agency of themajority …’.5. πλεοναζω intransitive, περισσευω transitive, δια τωνπολλων governing πλεοναζω: ‘So that grace, havingincreased through the agency of the majority, may causethanksgiving to abound …’.6. πλεοναζω intransitive, περισσευω transitive, διατων πολλων governing περισσευω: ‘So that grace,having become more abundant, may cause thanksgivingto abound through the agency of the majority …’.Seasons greeitngs!Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] επι το αυτο[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
Sat Dec 27 16:15:53 εστ 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order ι just wrote: >ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more >naturally have said ‘δια θν του πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?ι meant, of course,ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘δια θν των πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Ann Nyland accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Sat Dec 27 16:44:48 εστ 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundredyears before Paul’s time.Ann Nyland—– Original Message —–From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;<cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 AMSubject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> ι just wrote:> > >ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> >naturally have said ‘δια θν του πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?> > ι meant, of course,> > ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘δια θν των πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?> > Paul Toseland> Bristol, England> > > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
Sat Dec 27 20:42:02 εστ 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] Prepositions Thank you, Ann. Perhaps then, if Paul had intended δια to be construed with θν EUCARISTIANhe might have written δια θν ευξαριστιαν του πλειονων? What bothers me is that, inthe absence of contextual indicators to the contrary, it seems perfectly natural in 2 Cor 4:15 to take DIAwith των πλειονων , and assume that θν ευξαριστιαν is the direct object of PERISSEUHi.Why not make clear that δια is to be construed with θν ευξαριστιαν, if that is what is intended?Isn’t it most natural to take δια with a possible object that immediately follows? ι guess it depends howa sentence is processed by the mind; anyone out there into cognitive grammar?Paul ToselandAnn Nyland wrote:>No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundred>years before Paul’s time.> >Ann Nyland> >—– Original Message —–>From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;><cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 αμ>Subject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> > > > >>ι just wrote:>> >> >ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>> >naturally have said ‘δια θν του πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?>> >>ι meant, of course,>> >>ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>>naturally have said ‘δια θν των πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?>> >>Paul Toseland>>Bristol, England>> >> >> >> >>—>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >> > > > >
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] Prepositions
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Dec 28 10:53:29 εστ 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [Paul τ.]> ι happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have somequestions.> > τα γαρ παντα δι‘ hUMAS, hINA hH ξαρισ πλεονασασα> δια των πλειονων θν ευξαριστιαν PERISSEUSHi> εισ θν δοξαν του θεου.> > 2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can be> either transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one> *really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!> > Carl discussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 εστ,> and suggested the following translation> > >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the> >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”> > ι just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘δια θν των πλειονων ευξαριστιαν‘?May ι suggest an alternative analysis?First, ι would say that grammatically the δια phrase could be connectedeither to the dependent participial clause hH ξαρισ πλεονασασα or the mainclause θν ευξαριστιαν PERISSEUSHi εισ θν δοξαν του θεου. Carl appears tohave taken it with the main clause, but all the translations ι have checked,have connected it to the preceding participial clause. ι think it fits thebroader context better to take it with the participial clause, because Paulis talking about his ministry of preaching to many people about theforgiveness of sins and the grace of God. As more and more people experiencethe grace of God, they also give thanks to God.What about translating it “so that, grace having increased through theincreasing number of people (who have been forgiven), it has multiplied thethanksgiving toward the glory of God.”This analysis keeps the balanced structure:ν β ππ – hH ξαρισ πλεονασασα δια των πλειονωνν β ππ – θν ευξαριστιαν PERISSEUSHi εισ θν δοξαν του QEOUIt does require an explanation of how grace increases through an increasingnumber of people. It may help to look at other uses of πλεοναζω by Paul.Rom 5:20 νομοσ δε παρεισηλθην, hINA PLEONASHi το PARAPTWMABut the law came along with the result that transgression increasedhOU δε επλεονασεν hH hAMARTIA, hUPEREPERISSEUSEN hH CARISBut when (the) sin increased, (the) grace abounded beyond measureAbounding grace is not realized until people are forgiven. The more peoplewho ask forgiveness, the more grace is experienced, and the morethanksgiving results.Rom 6:1 επιμενωμεν THi hAMARTIAi, hINA hH ξαρισ PLEONASHiShould we remain in (the) sin, so that (the) grace can abound?Again, ι see the implied event of forgiveness before grace can abound,because sin that is not repented of and forgiven, results in the experienceof judgment, not grace.Finally, a few English translations:νετ: so that the grace that is including more and more people may causethanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.ρσβ: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increasethanksgiving, to the glory of God.ρεβ: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greatermay be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.τεβ: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to theglory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.νιβ: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may causethanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.Iver Larsen
Sun Dec 28 16:09:10 εστ 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver kindly listed the following versions of the hINA clause of 2 Cor 4:15>νετ: so that the grace that is including more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.>ρσβ: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase>thanksgiving, to the glory of God.>ρεβ: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greater>may be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.>τεβ: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to the>glory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.>νιβ: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.> > All these versions seem to assume that the aorist participle πλεονασασα describes anongoing process, the extension of grace to more and more people. This process isportrayed as co-ordinated with another process, thanksgiving abounding to God’s glroy,which is described by the present subjunctive PERISSEUSHi. This seems very odd to me.Surely the perfective aspect of the aorist requires something like ‘so that grace, havingbecome abundant …’? Or am ι missing something?Paul Toseland