Yes, you seem to be right about those verses. Thank you for your correction and giving me a chance to look at this question again more closely. The majority of NTG 1st person plural pronouns are inclusive of somebody at least. [The pronoun can refer on a scale from incuding all of humanity to including just the speaker concerned.] It seems that in this chapter there are 3 plausible inclusivities. There are:Lee Moses wrote:If you mean inclusive of the addressees, I do not believe this is correct. Vv. 11-13 make clear that "we" includes Paul, but not the Corinthians: 11 Εἰδότες οὖν τὸν φόβον τοῦ κυρίου ἀνθρώπους πείθομεν, θεῷ δὲ πεφανερώμεθα· ἐλπίζω δὲ καὶ ἐν ταῖς συνειδήσεσιν ὑμῶν πεφανερῶσθαι. 12 οὐ πάλιν ἑαυτοὺς συνιστάνομεν ὑμῖν ἀλλὰ ἀφορμὴν διδόντες ὑμῖν καυχήματος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, ἵνα ἔχητε πρὸς τοὺς ἐν προσώπῳ καυχωμένους καὶ μὴ ἐν καρδίᾳ. 13 εἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν. In this chapter, he is discussing all that he has done and continues to do, as he tells the Corinthians, ὑμῖν.Stephen Hughes wrote:It would seem - correct me if I've skipped one - that this supplied "you " of verse 20 is the only exclusive "we" in a chapter of inclusive "we"'s.
This verse seems to be inclusive referring to all peopl e - something for our common humanity.2 Corinthians 5:10 wrote: Τοὺς γὰρ πάντας ἡμᾶς φανερωθῆναι δεῖ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ χριστοῦ "For we must all present ourselves before the judgement of Christ"
This verse seems to refer to all christians.2 Corinthians 5:5 (RP) wrote: Ὁ δὲ κατεργασάμενος ἡμᾶς εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο θεός, ὁ καὶ δοὺς ἡμῖν τὸν ἀρραβῶνα τοῦ πνεύματος.
Here the inclusivity is for Paul and his fellow ministers, who are the "we" and the Corinthians are the "you". The vere we are looking at, verse 20, could possibly be any one of those scale of inclusivities. Which one of them is most plausible is ultimately that is a matter of discussion and interpretation. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — February 4th, 2014, 6:57 amΕἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν. "For if are beside ourselves, it is for you. If we are soberminded- it is for you."
Perhaps, therefore, the need for the encouragement from Paul to Timothy at 1Tim 4:13: " ...πρόσεχε τῇ ἀναγνὼσει..."? Or would that have applied only to Hebrew? μη γενοιτο that it should apply to Greek.cwconrad wrote: Makes one wonder how readers made out in those "dim, olden' days before editors and punctuators showed us how we ought to anatomize the text in order to make it read the way we think we'd like to read it.
Statistics: Posted by Scott Lawson — February 3rd, 2014, 10:45 pm
If you mean inclusive of the addressees, I do not believe this is correct. Vv. 11-13 make clear that "we" includes Paul, but not the Corinthians: 11 Εἰδότες οὖν τὸν φόβον τοῦ κυρίου ἀνθρώπους πείθομεν, θεῷ δὲ πεφανερώμεθα· ἐλπίζω δὲ καὶ ἐν ταῖς συνειδήσεσιν ὑμῶν πεφανερῶσθαι. 12 οὐ πάλιν ἑαυτοὺς συνιστάνομεν ὑμῖν ἀλλὰ ἀφορμὴν διδόντες ὑμῖν καυχήματος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, ἵνα ἔχητε πρὸς τοὺς ἐν προσώπῳ καυχωμένους καὶ μὴ ἐν καρδίᾳ. 13 εἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν. In this chapter, he is discussing all that he has done and continues to do, as he tells the Corinthians, ὑμῖν. Statistics: Posted by Lee Moses — February 3rd, 2014, 8:36 pmStephen Hughes wrote: It would seem - correct me if I've skipped one - that this supplied "you " of verse 20 is the only exclusive "we" in a chapter of inclusive "we"'s.
Makes one wonder how readers made out in those "dim, olden' days before editors and punctuators showed us how we ought to anatomize the text in order to make it read the way we think we'd like to read it.
Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — January 31st, 2014, 2:51 pm
Paul, I completely agree with your understanding. To me, it is the only one that makes sense in the context. Paul and his audience are ambassadors for Christ who plead (to people/the world) that they be reconciled to God. The previous verse introduced that reconciliation between God and the world. The Corinthians have already been reconciled, and therefore can hardly be addressed by the imperative. While I was writing this, I can see that Tony has also responded, so I will shorten mine. It looks like the addition of the pronoun goes all the way back to the Wycliffe Bible: "Therefore we use message for Christ [Therefore we be set in legacy, or message, for Christ], as if God admonisheth by us; we beseech you for Christ, be ye reconciled to God. " (From Biblegateway). Statistics: Posted by Iver Larsen — January 31st, 2014, 11:14 am
Andreas Köstenberger in an article in the Bible Translator follows a number of commentators (Alford, Bruce, Hughes, Plummer, Thrall [in her comments]) in arguing that Paul is in 5.20 still describing his general task rather than making an appeal to the Corinthians in particular. "We Plead on Christ's Behalf: 'Be Reconciled to God'" Bible Translator 48.3 1997 328-31. http://www.ubs-translations.org/tbt/1997/03/TBT199703.html?num=328&x=0&y=0&num1= Also, and more comprehensively, Richard K. Moore, '2 Corinthians 5.20b in the English Bible in the light of Paul’s doctrine of reconciliation' Bible Translator 54.1 2003 146-55 http://tbt.sagepub.com/content/54/1/146.full.pdf+html if you have access. There are several other English translations to add to Weymouth that omit "you" but they retain the direct speech at the end of the verse. I take it that the direct speech in the Greek καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ is not necessarily addressed to the Corinthians, but rather to whoever is perceived to be the object of δεόμεθα. If that is all and sundry (urbi et orbi - Plummer), then that is who the direct speech is addressed to. (Unfortunately this is not really clear in English, unless re-expressed as indirect speech, as Weymouth did.) Jewish New Testament (1989): Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us. What we do is appeal on behalf of the Messiah, "Be reconciled to God. New Living 2nd edition (2004): So we are Christ's ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” Holman Christian Standard Bible: Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.” Statistics: Posted by Tony Pope — January 31st, 2014, 11:10 am
Maybe v.11, ἀνθρώπους πείθομεν, supports your interpretation, Paul? Statistics: Posted by Stephen Carlson — January 31st, 2014, 11:04 am
It would seem - correct me if I've skipped one - that this supplied "you " of verse 20 is the only exclusive "we" in a chapter of inclusive "we"'s. Statistics: Posted by Stephen Hughes — January 31st, 2014, 10:49 am
Thanks. Yes, "you" is understood within the imperative. I guess it's as simple as that. I was thinking of it in this sense:
- "We are lawyers. We appeal on our clients behalf "Free this man."
-
- "He reconciled us to himself (ἡμᾶς ἑαυτῷ)..."
-
- This would seem to refer to everyone. It carries on
-
-
-
- If ἡμῖν here switches to referring only to Paul and his ilk, then in verse 20
-
-
-
- All this leads to a sudden outburst statement of that message in v 20,
-
-
- "He reconciled himself to us all,
-
- and he gave us all the ministry of reconciliation,
-
- and we all are ambassadors
- who are fond of saying "Be reconciled!"
We [you and I together] plead on behalf of Christ [to the world], "Be reconciled to God." I think that only "Be reconciled to G-d" is direct speech, thus implying "you". But "We plead" is not a part of the direct speech, thus may imply "them" or "the world", or any other complement. Sincerely, Dmitriy Reznik Statistics: Posted by Dmitriy Reznik — January 31st, 2014, 10:14 amcwconrad wrote: Seems to me that the "you" is implied by the imperative's addressee. Sure, you can phrase the addressees of the envoy's appeal in a generic noun ("men" or "people"), but when the envoy words his appeal, καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ, his addresses will be a "you." Or am I missing something that you see?
Seems to me that the "you" is implied by the imperative's addressee. Sure, you can phrase the addressees of the envoy's appeal in a generic noun ("men" or "people"), but when the envoy words his appeal, καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ, his addresses will be a "you." Or am I missing something that you see? Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — January 31st, 2014, 8:56 amPaul-Nitz wrote:
Ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ οὖν πρεσβεύομεν
ὡς τοῦ θεοῦ παρακαλοῦντος διʼ ἡμῶν·
δεόμεθα ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ,
καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ.
NIV84 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. My understanding:
We [all] are therefore ambassadors of Christ,
as God urges through us.
We [you and I together] plead on behalf of Christ [to the world],
"Be reconciled to God."
I'm not trying to champion a new understanding of 2 Cor 5:20. The way I have translated it above is simply the way I understood it as I read the Greek. But I see that every translation* supplies "you" as an object of "We plead." That understanding jars a bit, doesn't it? The sudden command doesn't seem to fit the flow of thought. But, I guess St. Paul does that. So, what am I missing in the Greek that requires the NET NIV GW NASB and about 30 other translations to supply "we beg YOU" ? * I found one (out of about 30) exception: "On Christ's behalf therefore we come as ambassadors, God, as it were, making entreaty through our lips: we, on Christ's behalf, beseech men to be reconciled to God." Weymouth New Testament (?)
-
- Ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ οὖν πρεσβεύομεν
-
- ὡς τοῦ θεοῦ παρακαλοῦντος διʼ ἡμῶν·
-
- δεόμεθα ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ,
- καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ.
-
- We [all] are therefore ambassadors of Christ,
-
- as God urges through us.
-
- We [you and I together] plead on behalf of Christ [to the world],
- "Be reconciled to God."