[] 2 Thess. 2.11 Scott Charlesworth scottc at gawab.com
Thu Oct 21 19:24:33 EDT 2004
[] New Testament Transcripts Prototype [] 2 Thess. 2.11 What thoughts are there on translating EIS TO PISTEUSAI AUTOUS TWI PSEUDEIScott
[] New Testament Transcripts Prototype[] 2 Thess. 2.11
[] 2 Thess. 2.11 Harold R. Holmyard III hholmyard at ont.com
Thu Oct 21 20:48:46 EDT 2004
[] 2 Thess. 2.11 [] Diagrams of the Complete Greek NT? Dear Scott,>What thoughts are there on translating EIS TO PISTEUSAI AUTOUS TWI PSEUDEIMy thought is that the definite article is generic here, so that one should translate with “so that they believe falsehood” or something like that.Yours,Harold Holmyard
[] 2 Thess. 2.11[] Diagrams of the Complete Greek NT?
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The salvation here is deliverance from the Tribulation by means of the Rapture, as seen elsewhere in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
The expression did not receive the love of the truth is an unusual one not found elsewhere in this exact form. Receiving the love of the truth is the same as believing in Jesus for eternal life. John 6:47 will be true then as well as now. Verse 12 makes this point explicitly, namely, that receiving the love of the truth equals believing the truth.
Verse 12 does not mean that everyone alive at the time of the Rapture who are unbelievers will be duped. Evidently when the Rapture occurs the Man of Sin will emerge and will give some explanation for the disappearance of the believers. With this lie will surely come his claim to be God and to offer deliverance for all who follow him. Many will be deluded by his message.
It is not known what the strong delusion will be. But it is known that only unbelievers who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness will be deceived. This does not mean that all of the unsaved when the Rapture occurs will be eternally condemned. Rev 7:4-17 states that there will be 144,000 Jewish evangelists and that they will lead Jews and Gentiles all over the earth to faith in Christ during the Tribulation.
Those who had pleasure in unrighteousness are people who heard and yet rejected the gospel in this age. Those in tribes and people groups who have not heard the gospel will not be subject to this delusion. Likely even some in countries like the United States, where the gospel is accessible to all, will not have heard the clear gospel, or have not heard it enough, and so some of them will come to faith in Christ in the Tribulation.
Surely, however, a large percentage of people in Christian lands will be deluded when the Rapture occurs and will be hardened in unbelief. Most of the converts of the 144,000 will no doubt be in third-world countries and unreached areas of the world (Matt 24:14).
Unbelievers should not be complacent in their unbelief. They should cry out to God to show them the truth. Their fear of the Tribulation should motivate them to ask God to reveal the truth of the gospel to them.
RichardAnna Boyce
Does 2 Thessa 2:9-12 say what you are saying?
Isara Mo
I have not the word Rapture or Tribulation from verses 9-12..or am I wrong?
from a dispensational reading “as seen elsewhere in 1 and 2 Thessalonians” it is; but interpreted with covenant theology, probably not.
clear Biblical reference to pre-Trib rapture Link
This us an example of giving an interpretation of a passage from a pretrib perspective–showing how it coukd possibly fit with pretrib– not an example of giving any actual evidence for pretrib.
I read the Greek discussion again and did not see what you are saying in it? Where are you getting it from – certainly not from the BIBLE – well maybe Your bible
Maybe your screen shows a long discussion mone does not.
Troy Day You interpret the passage based on the presupposition of pre-trib. I want to know where the onramp is to the highway of pretrib circular reasoning. If there is no reason to believe in pre-trib, there is no reason to see this passage as being about pre-trib.
For example from Boyce’s post in the thread: “Verse 12 does not mean that everyone alive at the time of the Rapture who are unbelievers will be duped. Evidently when the Rapture occurs the Man of Sin will emerge and will give some explanation for the disappearance of the believers. With this lie will surely come his claim to be God and to offer deliverance for all who follow him. Many will be deluded by his message.”
Why should I believe that? I should I believe the man of sin has to give an explanation for the believers, that the falling away is really the rapture, or any of the ways pre-tribbers try to stretch the interpretation of the passage to fit with pre-trib. Chapter 1 is about the return of Christ. Jesus executes judgement on them that know not God when He returns, and the church is here when that happens according to that chapter. Why shouldn’t I interpret the ‘day’—that day in chapter 2 to be the same ‘day’– the day of Christ in chapter 1?
The lack of evidence for pre-trib is overwhelming. If there were some scripture that actually showed a pre-trib rapture in the sequence of events, it might justify some of these lengths that pre-tribbers go to with the passage. For example, if the BIble showed one being taken and another left BEFORE the tribulation instead of after it in Matthew 24, or if Revelation actually showed a rapture of the church in the sequence of events before the stuff we consider ‘tribulational’ starts to occur in the narrative, you might have a case. Instead, we have pre-tribbers trying to argue that John being told ‘come up hither’ refers to the rapture of the church– a strangely allegorical interpretation for literalists to be engaging in.
This kind of stuff, seen in Boyce’s post, really irritates me, especially when I have heard it from the pulpit: “This does not mean that all of the unsaved when the Rapture occurs will be eternally condemned. Rev 7:4-17 states that there will be 144,000 Jewish evangelists and that they will lead Jews and Gentiles all over the earth to faith in Christ during the Tribulation.” Where in the passage is any mention of their ministry being ‘evangelists’? That’s part of pre-trib lore that gets treated as if it were scripture. Kind of like some Charismatics and the Jezebel spirit. If a Charismatic says he or she discerns a ‘Jezebel spirit’ or got a revelation about a ‘Jezebel spirit’ being a problem, that’s not a big deal to me. Let’s discern it like a prophecy or revelation.
But to claim the BIble actually mentions a ‘Jezebel spirit’ is false. And if Revelation does not say the 144,000 are evangelists, we should not pretend that it does.
We end up with a body of doctrine that people pretend is in the Bible but it is not really there, kind of like quoting Ben Franklin, ‘God helps those who help themselves as if it were scripture.
Continued more later Lord willing.
I dont interpret the passage but simply translate with the help of many scholars whom I know It says what it says – dont twist it if you havent even read the discussion
Troy Day if its translation without interpretation don’t pretend it is evidence for pretrib.
If there is a way to interpret the Greek to leave some room open for the idea of tribulational saints getting saved after a pre-trib rapture…as opposed to being worded so that this is impossible, that is not ‘evidence’ for pre-trib rapture. If there is no scritpure that sets up the sequence such that the rapture occurs pre-trib, and plenty of evidence against it, why would I accept the more convoluted interpretations of II Thessalonians 2 that require Jesus to come back or for his coming to last 7 years?
In verse 8, that wicked is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. I Thessalonians 4 puts the rapture at the coming of Christ, and I Corinthians 15 tells us they that are Christ’s will be made alive unto the coming of the Lord. How are we going to be alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, when that wicked one is to be destroyed at the brightness of His coming, but we are supposed to be raptured seven years before that happens? Why should I accept the whole pre-trib system.
There is a big difference between an argument that a particular Greek phrase does not disprove pre-trib and actual evidence in favor of a pre-trib rapture.
dont interpret the Greek – translate it
It says what it says
Explain how that translation of Greek offers evidence for pretrib.
“The salvation here is deliverance from the Tribulation” by Boyce– that is clearly interpretation not translation.
Would you seriously say that ‘deliverance from a seven year period of tribulation’ is inherent in the meaning of the Greek word, was how Greek speakers interpreted the word, and is what the word means in other contexts?
The discussion explains it in length better than I can – just click read understand and God bless
Qhat I see is rather brief in the OP. No evidence FOR pretrib if you do not assume it. Just another post trying to make pretrib feasible.
1 Thessalonians
B. God Has Promised That the Dead in Christ Will Rise First (4:13-18)
4:13. Paul is addressing a question in this paragraph that clearly concerned the believers in Thessalonica: the fear that those believers who died before the Rapture occurred would miss out on the Millennium. While believers grieve over lost loved ones (cf. John 11:35), they are not to sorrow as others [i.e., unbelievers] who have no hope.
Before the Fall of Adam and Eve, people were incapable of dying. God made humans to live forever in natural bodies. That all changed with the Fall. Death entered the world when Adam and Eve sinned. The human body was set to a path of birth, growth, decline, and then death.
In all of recorded history, only two people since the Fall have escaped death: Enoch and Elijah. They alone were taken alive to heaven. Even the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died. Of course, He rose bodily from the dead on the third day. The theme of 1 Thessalonians is that believers should serve God as they expectantly wait for the return of Jesus so that they might rule with Him (cf. 1:9-10).
In this section of the book Paul gives specific applications for how believers should be living and dying, in light of Christ’s soon return. Paul is not trying to teach a new doctrine to the Thessalonians. He is reminding them of a doctrine they have already been taught and already believe. Thus one should not look in this passage for a comprehensive treatment of the Rapture. Indeed, one will not find that anywhere, for the Rapture was well taught orally. Thus the epistles mention it, but they do not discuss it extensively.
This section immediately follows the section on brotherly love. The connection may be that love for departed loved ones should not cause one undue grief, as though he feared they would miss out on something to come.
The Greek word for sleep used here (koimaomai in 4:13-15) is most often used in the NT to refer to the death of believers (cf. Matt 27:52; 28:13 [of Jesus Himself], John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor 11:30; 15:6,18,51; however, 1 Cor 7:39 and 2 Peter 3:4 are unclear on the spiritual condition of the husbands and the fathers mentioned).
Christian grief should be lessened by the knowledge that one will meet his believing loved ones again very soon, possibly even today, and then they will all be together forever with the Lord (vv 14-17).
4:14. The resurrection of believers who have died before the Rapture is just as certain as the fact that Jesus died and rose again. God [the Father] will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Jesus’ death and resurrection are not merely signs that all who believe in Him have eternal life (John 2:18-22; 20:30-31). They are also signs that He will raise all believers from the dead (cf. 11:25).
4:15-17. We who are alive and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. Here is their fear, that those believers who die before the Rapture will not be resurrected until much later, that is, until after the Millennium. Paul directly contradicts that fear. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. These are prophesied eschatological signs that attend the return of Messiah. This could refer to the Rapture or the Second Coming or both.
Most naturally it refers to both, for the fact that we will meet the Lord in the air, not in heaven, suggests that Jesus’ Second Coming takes seven years to complete. The Rapture and Second Coming are two phases of His return. The dead in Christ will rise first, that is, immediately before we who are alive. The word caught up (harpazœ) in the Latin Vulgate is translated with a word from which comes the word Rapture. There will be no more separations. No more death. From that point on, believers will be forever with the Lord.
4:18. Eschatology and particularly the Rapture should enable believers to comfort one another with these words (the words of vv 13-17). Eschatology is given to meet very practical needs. One of those is comforting believers in bereavement.
Believers who are now with the Lord will not miss out on anything in God’s plan. In fact, they are better off than those still alive (Phil 1:23). However, many believers seem determined to cling to this life at all costs. Thus one wonders if they think this life is better than the transition time between death and the Rapture.
Paul leaves no room for exceptions here. The reason his words are comforting is because all believers who have died will rise first. None of them will miss out on even one moment of the Millennium. Even believers who died when they were out of fellowship with God will rise first. Though some teach a partial Rapture, they do so in contradiction to Scripture (see also 5:10).
What about the death of unbelieving loved ones? Paul does not directly deal with that question here or elsewhere. However, the Lord Jesus will remove all grief (Rev 21:4). And He will give believers the grace they need now as well. Besides, even if it is a very remote possibility, believers should realize that they are not omniscient and it is always possible (except in cases of remote people groups where one could be certain a relative had never heard about Christ) that the departed loved one believed in Jesus for eternal life at some point in his life.
C. God Has Promised Eternity with the Lord (1 Thess 5:1-11)
5:1-2. The times and the seasons refer to when the day of the Lord will come. The believers in Thessalonica knew already (you have no need that I should write to you) that it would come as a thief in the night.
The day of the Lord, an expression used often in the Old and New Testaments, always refers to a coming time of temporal judgment. Sometimes in the OT it referred to a soon coming day in which God would judge other nations. Sometimes in the OT and NT it refers to one of two future judgments: the Tribulation or the putting down of the final rebellion at the end of the Millennium, which is immediately followed by the burning up of the present heavens and earth.
The thief in the night imagery comes from the teaching of the Lord (cf. Matt 24:42-44). The Rapture will not be preceded by signs which tip the observant person off to when He is coming.
5:3. This sudden destruction will come when they say, “Peace and safety!” The third plural pronoun, they, is emphatic here. The change to you in vv 4-5 reveals that Paul is clearly contrasting the unbelieving world (they) with the believers in Thessalonica (you).
Verse 3 shows that the Rapture will occur when the unbelieving world does not expect it. It will be during a time of relative peace and safety. In addition, hypothetically the time of peace and safety could fall immediately after the Rapture but before the Tribulation begins. Many theologians suggest that there is a time of 30 to 90 days after the Rapture before the event that signals the start of the Tribulation: the signing of a treaty between Israel and the man of sin.
They will not escape the Tribulation. The issue in this section is the wrath of God to be poured out during the day of the Lord, the Tribulation. The lake of fire and eternal condemnation are not in view in this context. (Of course, it is true that if an unbeliever dies during the Tribulation, his eternal destiny will be the lake of fire. But that is not the point here.)
Paul compares the coming of the Tribulation to labor pains which come upon a pregnant woman. The world has been pregnant for two thousand years now, and when the labor begins, it will not last for twelve or twenty-four hours, but seven years. After those seven years the glorious kingdom of God will be born on earth.
5:4. Believers (But you, brethren) are not in darkness. That is, the believers in Thessalonica had been instructed on this point. (Being in darkness in v 4 is probably different from being of darkness in v 5.) Thus this Day should not overtake you as a thief. While believers cannot know when it will occur, they can and should be living each day in light of that day.
Implicit in Paul’s statement in v 4 is that the Rapture might overtake believers as a thief in the night. This does not mean that such believers would miss the Rapture. It means they would be unpleasantly surprised. If a believer is not living in fellowship with Christ when the Rapture occurs, it will be a time of shame, not boldness (1 John 2:28).
5:5. Believers are all sons of light and sons of the day. Another way of saying that is that believers are not of the night nor of darkness. That means that in our position we are set apart, godly. This is similar to Paul’s statement in Eph 5:8, “You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.” Paul then continues with this command, “Walk as children of light.” That is exactly what Paul next does here as well (vv 6-8).
5:6. The Greek word used for sleep here is katheudœ. This differs from the word used for sleep in 4:13-14 to refer to the death of believers (koimaomai). This word refers to moral lethargy (vv 5:6-7,10). Let us not sleep is an exhortation to be morally alert in light of Christ’s soon return. The opposite of sleeping is given here: let us watch and be sober.
Watchfulness is an exhortation commonly found in eschatological passages dealing with the Lord’s coming as a thief in the night (cf. Matt 24:42-43; 25:13; Mark 13:34-35; Luke 12:37,39; 1 Peter 5:8; Rev 3:2; 16:15).
5:7. Those who sleep, sleep at night compares literal sleep to moral lethargy. Those who are morally asleep do their evil deeds at night, as the following reference to getting drunk shows. Similarly, the statement those who get drunk are drunk at night compares the actions and behaviors that are often associated with night to the shameful sins that people like to hide from others.
Rather than live lives of moral lethargy, believers must be those who are of the day. Rather than commit shameful sin, they must be sober. Paul uses sobriety to refer to moral purity in all areas, which is accomplished through living with the famous triad: faith, hope, and love.
5:8. Putting on the breastplate of faith and love is similar to James 2:14-26 or 1 John 3:16-18. Believers are to do something about their faith in Christ’s soon return. That faith should produce loving actions toward fellow believers, as well as to unbelievers (Gal 6:10).
Believers are also to put on as a helmet the hope of salvation. We must remember that salvation in First Thessalonians is not deliverance from eternal condemnation. It is deliverance from the Tribulation wrath. The believers’ hope—that is their certain expectation of a yet-future deliverance—should act as a protective helmet against all of Satan’s blows. Knowing that they are soon to be freed from this life is a great help to believers in their daily living.
Paul does not explain in these verses what watchful believers will get or what sleeping believers will fail to receive. However, we know from other texts in Paul and elsewhere that what is at stake is ruling with Christ, having His approval, and other privileges reserved for overcoming Christians (Luke 19:17,19; 1 Cor 9:24-27; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 2:17,26; 22:14). Surely the believers in Thessalonica knew this as well. Compare 5:23 and being “preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
5:9. The wrath spoken of here is the Tribulation. Believers will not go through the Tribulation, because God did not appoint us to wrath. The salvation is then deliverance from the Tribulation by the Rapture. One of the benefits of the work of Christ on the cross is that believers who are alive when Christ returns will be raptured before the wrath falls on mankind.
5:10. Verse 10 is one of the clearest statements found in Scripture that all believers will be raptured. Our Lord Jesus Christ died for us, that whether we wake [lit., are watchful] or sleep, we should live together with Him. Whether watchful or asleep when the Rapture occurs (cf. vv 4-8), believers will live forever with Him. His death guarantees that as well for all believers. Though some today teach that unfaithful believers will miss the Millennium, their teaching is directly contradicted by this text (as well as others).
5:11. We should comfort each other and edify one another in light of the truth of the Rapture. Just as no departed believer will miss out on the Rapture or the coming Millennium (4:13-18), so no believer who is alive when Christ returns will miss out either.
D. Closing Exhortations in Light of Christ’s Soon Return (5:12-22)
They was rejection of Christ and the Cross. ) God sent them strong delusion ( if one doesn’t want “the Truth” God will see to it one received a delusion). That they should believe a lie.
The other part. I don’t know Theology like you. So I don’t have a clue how to answer that.