[] 1 John 2:20 Dony K. Donev dony at cupandcross.com
Thu Sep 2 19:41:56 EDT 2004
[] TAPEINWQHTE in James 4:10 [] 1 John 2:20 Since PANTEs in 1 John 2:20 is nominative, should OiDATE PANTEs be translated, “and you all know” with “all” referring to the readers, rather than the commonly rendered “and you know all things?”Dony K. Donev
[] TAPEINWQHTE in James 4:10[] 1 John 2:20
[] 1 John 2:20 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 2 23:17:34 EDT 2004
[] 1 John 2:20 [] (no subject) At 7:41 PM -0400 9/2/04, Dony K. Donev wrote:>Since PANTEs in 1 John 2:20 is nominative, should OiDATE PANTEs be>translated, “and you all know” with “all” referring to the readers, rather>than the commonly rendered “and you know all things?”Yes, but you should realize that “you know all things” is based on thereading of Textus Receptus (and Majority Text); OIDATE PANTA, and that’swhat KJV translated as “you know all things”–the translation wasn’t wrong,but it was of a a reading that the critical edition (USB4, NA27) doesn’tretain.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] 1 John 2:20[] (no subject)
[] 1 John 2:20 JMonte2000 at aol.com JMonte2000 at aol.com
Thu Feb 21 21:45:10 EST 2008
[] TARASSW/TARASSOMAI: Concluding unscientific postscript [] 1 John 2:20 Hi all I have a question, why is KAI kai. translated as But. It’s the first word in 1 John 2:20 when I couldn’t find this in any lexicons, they have, And, even also, namely, Any help would be appreciated. In the future is there a place to look when I find a small problem like this? Grace and peaceJim Montesano**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
[] TARASSW/TARASSOMAI: Concluding unscientific postscript[] 1 John 2:20
[] 1 John 2:20 kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Thu Feb 21 23:16:59 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] 1 John 2:20 Check out BDAG pg 495. It reads ” emphasizing a fact as surprising or unexpected or noteworthy : And yet, and in spite of that, nevertheless. For another example check out Matthew 12:43.hOTAN DE TO AKAQARTON PNEUMA EXELQHi APO TOU ANQRWPOU DIERCETAI DI ANUDRWN TOPWN ZHTOUN ANAPAUSIN KAI OUC hEURISKEI ….seeking rest, but he finds none.–Kelton Graham KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net————– Original message ————– From: JMonte2000 at aol.com > Hi all I have a question, why is KAI kai. translated as But. It’s the first > word in 1 John 2:20 when I couldn’t find this in any lexicons, they have, > And, even also, namely, > Any help would be appreciated. In the future is there a place to look when I > find a small problem like this? > > Grace and peace > Jim Montesano > > > > **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ > 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) > — > home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ > mailing list > at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
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[] 1 John 2:20 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 22 06:36:46 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] Sources for patristic greek writings? It is in the lexicons though it isn’t as plainly displayed as some other itemsη. emphasizing a fact as surprising or unexpected or noteworthy: and yet, and in spite of that, nevertheless (Eur., Herc. Fur. 509; Philostrat., Her. 11 [II 184, 29 Kayser] ῥητορικώτατον καὶ δεινόν [hRHTORIDWTATON KAI DEINON]; Longus, Past. 4, 17 βουκόλος ἦν Ἀγχίσης καὶ ἔσχεν αὐτὸν Ἀφροδίτη [BOUKOLOS hH AGXISHS KAI ESXEN QUTON AFRODITH]) κ. σὺ ἔρχῃ πρὸς μέ; [K. ERXHi PROS ME?] and yet you come to me? Mt 3:14; cp. 6:26; 10:29; Mk 12:12; J 1:5, 10; 3:11, 32; 5:40; 6:70; 7:28; 1 Cor 5:2; 2 Cor 6:9; Hb 3:9 (Ps 94:9); Rv 3:1. So also, connecting what is unexpected or otherw. noteworthy with an attempt of some kind (JBlomqvist, Das sogennante και [KAI] adversativum ’79): but ζητεῖ κ. οὐχ εὑρίσκει [ZHTEI K. OUX hEURISKEI] but he finds none (no resting place) Mt 12:43. ἐπεθύμησαν ἰδεῖν κ. οὐχ εἶδαν [EPEQUMHSAN IDEIN K. OUX EIDAN] but did not see (it) 13:17; cp. 26:60; Lk 13:7; 1 Th 2:18. Cp. GJs 18:3 (not pap). Perhaps Mk 5:20. Introducing a contrasting response καὶ ἀποδώσεις μοι [KAI APOKWSEIS MOI] Hv 2, 1, 3.Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. By W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker.” (3rd ed.) (495). Chicago: University of Chicago Press. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death. – Jan Hus_________—– Original Message —-From: “JMonte2000 at aol.com” <JMonte2000 at aol.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:45:10 PMSubject: [] 1 John 2:20Hi all I have a question, why is KAI kai. translated as But. It’s the first word in 1 John 2:20 when I couldn’t find this in any lexicons, they have, And, even also, namely, Any help would be appreciated. In the future is there a place to look when I find a small problem like this? Grace and peaceJim Montesano**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ ____________________________________________________________________________________Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[] 1 John 2:20[] Sources for patristic greek writings?
[] 1 John 2:20 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Feb 22 08:18:25 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] 1 John 2:20 On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:45 PM, JMonte2000 at aol.com wrote:> Hi all I have a question, why is KAI kai. translated as But. It’s > the first> word in 1 John 2:20 when I couldn’t find this in any lexicons, they > have,> And, even also, namely,> Any help would be appreciated. In the future is there a place to > look when I> find a small problem like this?There have been excellent responses to this question already by Kelton Graham and George Somsel. I just want to ask the question of Jim here and offer some advice:Question: You say that you couldn’t find the “but” usage in any lexicons. May I ask: WHICH lexicons did you actually consult? I find it hard to conceive of any half-way respectable lexicon that would not include this usage. EVEN that perhaps-most-readily-accessed-and- generally-useless glossary of Barclay Newman about which I have vented ad nauseam has: “καί [KAI} conj. and, also, but, even; that is, namely.” I cannot conceive of any lexicon worthy of publication that offered only “and” for KAI. Nay, further (KAI MHN!): if it were enforceable, I would propose a law against single-word-for-word glossaries with severe penalties imposed upon offenders producing them. And this is a mischief that is promoted with compound interest in the latest “surge” of interlinear Biblical texts that offer single- word-for-word equivalents selected by some unidentified authority out of the range of possible senses for the word or phrase in question.Comment: Of course beginners need help, beginning students of Biblical Greek no less than kids learning to ride a bicycle. But training wheels and an older person’s supporting hands have to give way if one is ever to go forward with self-sustained and steady momentum; so also word-for-word glossaries, parsing guides and interlinears have to give way to direct confrontation with original texts and lexica that are as reasonably thorough in coverage as can be obtained. Nor is it enough to acquire and own a good lexicon; one needs to STUDY the entries for words. You might note with dismay a lexical entry of a whole column or perhaps even two or three pages — for a word that keeps you from moving on in a text because you either don’t know its fundamental meaning or find it in an unfamiliar context where what you remember of it doesn’t avail. You throw up your arms in frustration because what you REALLY want to know is WHAT THAT ?*!#@% WORD MEANS IN THIS INSTANCE and you cannot find it by scanning the entry quickly with your eyes. But it is precisely THESE words with lengthy entries in the lexicon that you MUST come to appreciate in their range of senses in varying contexts. And the only way you can come to appreciate that range of senses is to pore over the examples offered and ponder the nuances of difference that derive from difference of context. However paradoxical it may seem, the lengthy lexical entry for a frequently- used word in an alien language is not an impediment to your forward progress in the text you’re trying to read; rather it is the most important resource — or at least one of them — toward gaining real proficiency in the language you’re trying to master. What slows you down when you’re trying to read an EASY text like 1 John will equip you hereafter when you endeavor to access much more difficult texts with ubiquitous and nuanced instances of KAI.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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[] 1 John 2:20 Sean Kelly seank at microsoft.com
Fri Feb 22 12:56:58 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] 1 John 2:20 >I find it hard to conceive of any half-way respectable lexicon that>would not include this usage. EVEN that perhaps-most-readily->accessed-and-generally-useless glossary of Barclay Newman about>which I have vented ad nauseam … Of course beginners need help,>beginning students of Biblical Greek no less than kids learning to>ride a bicycle. But training wheels and an older person’s supporting>hands have to give way if one is ever to go forward with>self-sustained and steady momentum … Nor is it enough to acquire and>own a good lexicon; one needs to STUDY the entries for words…I must confess that the only lexicon I have can be found in the back ofmy Strong’s Concordance. I imagine you might have equally glowing thingsto say about it as it generally tends to be very terse giving a two orthree word definition and then a list of the ways it was translated inthe NASB. How I would love to have a lexicon that would discuss the nuancesthat various case endings might bring to a noun or what weight the PresentActive Subjunctive form adds to a particular verb. Or how context mightlead to greater meaning, such as how Vine’s describes the deeper meaningof ηκουσας in 2Tim2:2 because Timothy was to παραθου them to faithful men.TMI does not apply to Scripture as far as I am concerned. So all that said,as a man whose opinion on the matter I value greatly, is there a lexiconyou would recommend?Sean Kelly
[] 1 John 2:20[] 1 John 2:20
[] 1 John 2:20 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Feb 22 13:21:13 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] 1 John 2:20 On Feb 22, 2008, at 12:56 PM, Sean Kelly wrote:>> I find it hard to conceive of any half-way respectable lexicon that>> would not include this usage. EVEN that perhaps-most-readily->> accessed-and-generally-useless glossary of Barclay Newman about>> which I have vented ad nauseam … Of course beginners need help,>> beginning students of Biblical Greek no less than kids learning to>> ride a bicycle. But training wheels and an older person’s supporting>> hands have to give way if one is ever to go forward with>> self-sustained and steady momentum … Nor is it enough to acquire >> and>> own a good lexicon; one needs to STUDY the entries for words…> > I must confess that the only lexicon I have can be found in the back > of> my Strong’s Concordance. I imagine you might have equally glowing > things> to say about it as it generally tends to be very terse giving a two or> three word definition and then a list of the ways it was translated in> the NASB. How I would love to have a lexicon that would discuss the > nuances> that various case endings might bring to a noun or what weight the > Present> Active Subjunctive form adds to a particular verb. Or how context > might> lead to greater meaning, such as how Vine’s describes the deeper > meaning> of ηκουσας in 2Tim2:2 because Timothy was to παραθου > them to faithful men.> TMI does not apply to Scripture as far as I am concerned. So all > that said,> as a man whose opinion on the matter I value greatly, is there a > lexicon> you would recommend?Yes: BDAG (i.e. A Greek – English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, revised and edited by Fredrick William Danker. University of Chicago Press, Chicago, Illinois © 1957, 1979, 2000 by The University of Chicago.)It is by no mans perfect, but for the NT and related Greek early Christian literature, there’s nothing existing that’s better.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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[] 1 John 2:20 Sarah Madden sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
Fri Feb 22 19:34:51 EST 2008
[] 1 John 2:20 [] 1 John 2:20 Sean –One cautionary note on Vine’s, even though it has very excellent Englishcommentary:The 1996 edition of Vine’s (which is most likely the most recent edition)was, I believe, updated to include Greek fonts, and this seemed to introducea ton of misspelled Greek words, which I researched, compiled, and sent toThomas Nelson Publishers in 2004. Probably I should resend it by snail mailsince I did not get a follow-up e-mail even though I did speak to someonethere about it and he was very interested in getting my list.Since most serious Greek scholors probably don’t refer to Vine’s, thisoversight could continue for a long time, because people who don’t readGreek would not understand the errors. They would be paying attention to theexcellent comments in English and not notice that the Greek word itself ismisspelled. If you are interested, I can send you this list (it’s 5 pageslong) — anyone else can ask and I’ll send it to you as well.Here are some of the 95 (admittedly nit-picking) errors I found: Page Vine’s Dictionary Entry (with my red correction) Corrected Word Vine’s Typo Comment Strong’s Number123Consider(anatheōreō, avnaqewre,w)avnaqewre,wANAQE*W*REWavnaqere,wANAQEREWMissing the first omega (w) (W) before the rho (r) (R).33389Carnal(sarkikos, sarkiko,j)sarkiko,j(This word won’t work with “font” because it involves sigmas, andboth sigmas become “S”)sarkiko,sThe final sigma (j) should be used at the end of the word, not the interimsigma (s).4559118Concord(sumphōnēsis, sumfw,nhsij)(SUMFWNH*S*IS)sumfw,nhsijSUMFWNH*S*IS)sumfw,nhoijSUMFWNH*O*IS)In the last syllable, an omicron (o) (O) was used instead of a sigma (s)(S).4857Sarah Maddensarah.r.madden at gmail.comMarylandOn Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Sean Kelly <seank at microsoft.com> wrote:> >I find it hard to conceive of any half-way respectable lexicon that> >would not include this usage. EVEN that perhaps-most-readily-> >accessed-and-generally-useless glossary of Barclay Newman about> >which I have vented ad nauseam … Of course beginners need help,> >beginning students of Biblical Greek no less than kids learning to> >ride a bicycle. But training wheels and an older person’s supporting> >hands have to give way if one is ever to go forward with> >self-sustained and steady momentum … Nor is it enough to acquire and> >own a good lexicon; one needs to STUDY the entries for words…> > I must confess that the only lexicon I have can be found in the back of> my Strong’s Concordance. I imagine you might have equally glowing things> to say about it as it generally tends to be very terse giving a two or> three word definition and then a list of the ways it was translated in> the NASB. How I would love to have a lexicon that would discuss the> nuances> that various case endings might bring to a noun or what weight the Present> Active Subjunctive form adds to a particular verb. Or how context might> lead to greater meaning, such as how Vine’s describes the deeper meaning> of ηκουσας in 2Tim2:2 because Timothy was to παραθου them to faithful men.> TMI does not apply to Scripture as far as I am concerned. So all that> said,> as a man whose opinion on the matter I value greatly, is there a lexicon> you would recommend?> > Sean Kelly> > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> — Sarahsarah.r.madden at gmail.comwork: 301.429.8189
[] 1 John 2:20[] 1 John 2:20