[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Apr 10 06:49:17 EDT 2006
[] Mark 3:14 [] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 I would commend to fellow ers the sequence of blog entries by Suzanne McCarthy and Richard Rhodes extending over the course of several days from an original post on March 26 and extending, somewhat sporadically, through today (April 10). We’ve had threads on this verse and this word before (see the archives, if you’re interested), but this has been a fascinating exploration of word- usage and contexts, an illuminating exposition of perils of etymologizing and the importance of contextual and historical probing of word-usage history. One central problem has been understanding the significance of the TOM- root (verb TEMNW and its cognates) in this compound and taking it back to what is evidently the original metaphor involved, namely that of roadbuilding. Certainly the old traditional “rightly dividing the word of truth” is clearly wrong, while “getting to the point …” is more apt. Jaspers says of myths that they can’t be replaced by philosophical or scientific formulations but only by more suitable myths, and I think that one great difficulty in translation is dealing with metaphors in the source language that can’t be converted into the same metaphors in the target language. I wonder, however, whether “cut” can’t survive in another metaphor that might fit the context of 2 Tim 2:15, “cutting to the core …”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Mark 3:14[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Mon Apr 10 10:43:05 EDT 2006
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 [] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 (Be reminded that this passage begins with the conceptof teaching others, and those teaching other faithfuland competent ones, etc.) I’ve often wondered if theidea here is not that of (TOM-) cutting in the senseof dividing or separating out (so as to install a roador bridge). It would then yield the idea of “rightlysystematizing or categorizing the word of truth.” Inmodern times, we call the results of such anundertaking Sytematic Theology. Such a work, wouldneed one to be a “proven worker.” It will be a longand hard process to systematize the scriptures, bothOT and NT, but without this TOM- of the word, people(2.18) have strayed from the truth, pulling somepassage of the resurrection, for example, out ofcontext and drawing unsystematic conclusions. Such aprocess will not avoid misinterpretation; rather, Paulis simply giving Timothy the proper methodology to employ.Eddie MishoePastor__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 frjsilver at optonline.net frjsilver at optonline.net
Wed Apr 12 21:32:33 EDT 2006
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 [] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 Dear Friends –I’d like to point out that, in the Divine Liturgy, just at the end of the anaphora, we pray for the episcopate, asking that the bishops ‘rightly mete out the word of Your truth’ — taken directly from this verse. (We sing the Bible in the services.)In prechristian Greek, ORQOTOMEW is used in many contexts, but the cutting of cloth stands out. A Russian proverb says ‘Measure seven times, since you can cut only once.’_A fortiori_, this is important not just for tailors, but for teachers of the scriptures.Peace and blessings to all.Monk JamesFather James SilverOrthodox Church in America—– Original Message —–From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>Date: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:43 amSubject: Re: [] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15> (Be reminded that this passage begins with the concept> of teaching others, and those teaching other faithful> and competent ones, etc.) I’ve often wondered if the> idea here is not that of (TOM-) cutting in the sense> of dividing or separating out (so as to install a road> or bridge). It would then yield the idea of “rightly> systematizing or categorizing the word of truth.” In> modern times, we call the results of such an> undertaking Sytematic Theology. Such a work, would> need one to be a “proven worker.” It will be a long> and hard process to systematize the scriptures, both> OT and NT, but without this TOM- of the word, people> (2.18) have strayed from the truth, pulling some> passage of the resurrection, for example, out of> context and drawing unsystematic conclusions. Such a> process will not avoid misinterpretation; rather, Paul> is simply giving Timothy the proper methodology to employ.> > Eddie Mishoe> Pastor
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Apr 12 22:56:10 EDT 2006
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15 [] Question about name order On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:32 PM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:> Dear Friends —> > I’d like to point out that, in the Divine Liturgy, just at the end > of the anaphora, we pray for the episcopate, asking that the > bishops ‘rightly mete out the word of Your truth’ — taken directly > from this verse. (We sing the Bible in the services.)It would appear that you haven’t looked at the series of blog entries at Better Bible Blog to which I pointed in the first message of this thread, or perhaps you didn’t find that lengthy discussion very illuminating.> In prechristian Greek, ORQOTOMEW is used in many contexts, but the > cutting of cloth stands out. A Russian proverb says ‘Measure seven > times, since you can cut only once.’Can you cite an instance of that usage for cutting cloth in pre- Christian Greek? I don’t have access to the TLG disk to check instances, but LSJ has a very meager entry on the word. BDAG points rather to usage with road-building.> _A fortiori_, this is important not just for tailors, but for > teachers of the scriptures.> > Peace and blessings to all.> > Monk James> > Father James Silver> Orthodox Church in America> > —– Original Message —–> From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>> Date: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:43 am> Subject: Re: [] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15> >> (Be reminded that this passage begins with the concept>> of teaching others, and those teaching other faithful>> and competent ones, etc.) I’ve often wondered if the>> idea here is not that of (TOM-) cutting in the sense>> of dividing or separating out (so as to install a road>> or bridge). It would then yield the idea of “rightly>> systematizing or categorizing the word of truth.” In>> modern times, we call the results of such an>> undertaking Sytematic Theology. Such a work, would>> need one to be a “proven worker.” It will be a long>> and hard process to systematize the scriptures, both>> OT and NT, but without this TOM- of the word, people>> (2.18) have strayed from the truth, pulling some>> passage of the resurrection, for example, out of>> context and drawing unsystematic conclusions. Such a>> process will not avoid misinterpretation; rather, Paul>> is simply giving Timothy the proper methodology to employ.>> >> Eddie Mishoe>> Pastor> > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] ORQOTOMEW in 2 Tim 2:15[] Question about name order
[] 2 Tim 2.15 Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 7 00:13:18 EDT 2009
[] Kató Lomb: Polyglot How I learn Languages [] 2 Tim 2.15 SPOUDASON SEAUTON DOKIMON PARASTHSAI TWi QEWi ERGATHN ANEPAISCUNTON, ORQOTOMOUNTA TON LOGON THS ALHQEIAS.What does ORQOTOMOUNTA (rightly divide) mean? Is rightly dividing the word of truth something akin to Systematic Theology, namely, putting related passages together and then formulating one’s theology. Finally, what would ‘wrongly dividing’ the word mean? Would it mean putting a particular passage in the wrong category of NT passages? Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas
[] Kató Lomb: Polyglot How I learn Languages[] 2 Tim 2.15
[] 2 Tim 2.15 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 7 00:45:33 EDT 2009
[] 2 Tim 2.15 [] Codex Sinaiticus on line ὀρθοτομέω ORQOTOMEWorthotomeō, to handle correctlyorthotomeō, S3718; TDNT8.111–112; EDNT2.531; NIDNTT3.351–352; MM456–457; L&N33.234; BDF§119(1); BAGD580Timothy must dispense the word of truth correctly, orthotomounta ton logon tēs alētheias(2 Tim 2:15). Hodon temneinmeans to trace or follow a route (Herodotus 4.136; Josephus, Ag. Apion1.309); “Archelaus opened straight routes” (hodous eutheias eteme, Thucydides 2.100.2); and because “whatever is drawn with a straight ruler is necessarily straight,” the expression “make a path straight” took on a metaphorical sense (Prov 3:6; 11:5; 1 QH12.34). This is especially so in rhetoric, where orthon legeinmeans to express oneself correctly (Aristotle, Gen. Cor.1.3143; Iamblichus, Myst.1.3 = 7.13), with the nuance of the golden mean: “No matter which of us has spoken more correctly (orthoteron eirēken); everyone must follow a middle path (meson tina temnein)” (Plato, Leg.7.793 a); “to advance along the route that our present discussion has started out on” (tēn nyn ek tōn parontōn logōn tetmēmenēn hodon, ibid. 800 e;cf. Xenophon, Oec.18.2, mesotomōn). For the rule in Greek dialectic is orthoepeia:expressing oneself with exactness and precision, without error or flaw, respecting the linguistic proprieties. Thus it is diametrically opposed to distortions and falsifications of the Word of God (2 Cor 2:17; 4:2) by bad exegetes who twist texts (2 Pet 3:16). The Vulgate translates well: “recte tractantem verbum veritatis.” As opposed to the mythologizing orators and fabulists who adulterate the revealed teaching, Timothy will be faithful to convey its traditional meaning (2 Tim 2:2, 8) and express it in adequate terms (cf. 1 Cor 2:13). Spicq, C., & Ernest, J. D. (1994). Theological lexicon of the New Testament (2:595). Peabody, MA.: Hendrickson. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>To: B Greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 9:13:18 PMSubject: [] 2 Tim 2.15SPOUDASON SEAUTON DOKIMON PARASTHSAI TWi QEWi ERGATHN ANEPAISCUNTON, ORQOTOMOUNTA TON LOGON THS ALHQEIAS.What does ORQOTOMOUNTA (rightly divide) mean? Is rightly dividing the word of truth something akin to Systematic Theology, namely, putting related passages together and then formulating one’s theology. Finally, what would ‘wrongly dividing’ the word mean? Would it mean putting a particular passage in the wrong category of NT passages? Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] 2 Tim 2.15[] Codex Sinaiticus on line
[] 2 Tim 2.15 Stephen Lord ebyon at sbcglobal.net
Tue Jul 7 09:49:34 EDT 2009
[] Codex Sinaiticus on line [] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. Observation 1:If we let Scripture interpret Scripture, and allowPaul to define his own terms, he does not employ the phrase /ton logontes aletheias/ (“the word of truth”) to mean all of Scripture, or evenjust the Old Testament. Rather, Paul explains what he means by thatvery phrase in Eph. 1:13, where he defines it as “the gospel of yoursalvation” (cf. Col. 1:5). He is not at all referring to a certain setof holy writings (the meaning of ‘scripture’) and how they should becollated.Observation 2:Thekey verb is /orthotomounta/ [lexical form /orthotomeo/], translated”rightly dividing” (KJV), “handling aright” (ASV), “rightly handling”(ESV), “accurately handling” (NASV), “correctly handles” (NIV),”teaching accurately” (NET). It seems the KJV “dividing” hascontributed to some of the misunderstanding.The term itself israre, occurring only here in the Greek New Testament, and in Prov. 3:6and 11:5 in the Septuagint.This is one of those terms where we can readily fallinto the trap of the etymological fallacy when seeking a definition.Louwand Nida suggest it means “to give accurate instruction.” BAGD suggesttentatively, “guide the word of truth along a straight path.” Liddell-Scott, to “teach aright.” Kittel (TDNT) favors the meaning ofdoing the right thing, right action. Reaching back to more datedlexicons, Thayer preferred “to teach the truth directly andcorrectly.” Souter, “define according to the norm of the Gospel.” Robinson, “rightly and skillfully teaching it.”Because the wordis only found in Scripture and not in any secular literature of theera, it is a challenge. Since Paul did not invent the word, but foundit in the Septuagint version of Proverbs, those two passages shouldserve as a baseline for our understanding of the term. In eachinstance it carries the idea of having a straight path laid out for aperson by that person acknowledging God and being righteous andblameless (these latter are about behavior).Whatis Timothy supposed to do with the “word of truth,” “the gospel of[our] salvation”? It is possible, given the use of the term elsewherein Scripture, that he is to live by it.Observation 3:Notethe surrounding context of the passage. Timothy is to entrust themessage to others who will teach it responsibly (2:2). Timothy is notto get entangled in worldly pursuits and concerns (2:3-7). Timothy isreminded of the Gospel–Jesus descended from David and risen from thedead. Timothy is encouraged to die with Christ, endure, remainfaithful and not deny the Lord (2:8-13). Timothy is to remind othersof these truths and charge them not to quarrel over words (2:14). Timothy is to avoid “irreverent babble” that leads to ungodliness, ashas happened with those “who have swerved [or missed the mark] from thetruth” (2:16, 18). Whatever /orthotomeo/ is, it is the opposite ofwhat the word quibblers, irreverent babblers, and truth swervers weredoing.Summary:1) Scripture informs us that the “word of truth” is a phrase that refersto the “gospel of our salvation” (2 Tim. 2:15; Eph. 1:13), notScripture in general or as a whole. (See also Col. 1:5.)2) The key verb,/orthotomeo/ is used elsewhere in reference to making a straight pathby acknowledging God and living righteous and blameless. In 2 Tim.2:15 what Timothy is to do in regard to the gospel of our salvation iscontrasted with those like Hymenaeus who are not living or teachingthat gospel. They aren’t telling it straight, they have swerved fromthe truth.3) Instead of abusing or misusing or living contrary to the gospel of oursalvation, as those who get “entangled in civilian pursuits” and”quarrel about words,” and engage in “irreverent babble” thus swervingfrom the truth, Timothy is to do just the opposite, keeping the “gospelof our salvation” straight in both content and conduct.Respectfully,Stephen C. Lord
[] Codex Sinaiticus on line[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 7 16:00:10 EDT 2009
[] 2 Tim 2.15 [] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. I wonder if a Hebrew scholar can contribute to the meaning of this hapax legomenon (in the NT) by explaining the Hebrew word that the LXX translates in Prov 3.6 or 11.5. What is the Hebrew word behind orthotomew and what is its meaning? Eddie MishoePastor
[] 2 Tim 2.15[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 7 16:22:07 EDT 2009
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. [] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. Prov 3.6 LXX6 ἐν πάσαις ὁδοῖς σου γνώριζε αὐτήν, ἵνα ὀρθοτομῇ τὰς ὁδούς σου,[ ὁ δὲ πούς σου οὐ μὴ προσκόπτῃ. ] 6 EN PASAIS hODOIS SOU GNWRIZE AUTHN, hINA ORQOTOMHi TAS hODOUS SOU, [hO DE POUS SOU MH PROSKOPTHi.]Prov 11.5 LXX 5 δικαιοσύνη ἀμώμους ὀρθοτομεῖ ὁδούς, ἀσέβεια δὲ περιπίπτει ἀδικίᾳ. 5 DIKAIOSUNH AMWMOUS ORQOTOMEI hODOUS, ASEBEIA PERIPIPTEI ADIKIAi.In both cases the Hebrew word is ישׁר Y$R which is glossed “be straight, smooth, right.” When used with בְּעֵינֵי B.:(“YN”Y “in the eyes of” and a person [or God] it signifies “to please.” georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>To: B Greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 1:00:10 PMSubject: Re: [] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.I wonder if a Hebrew scholar can contribute to the meaning of this hapax legomenon (in the NT) by explaining the Hebrew word that the LXX translates in Prov 3.6 or 11.5. What is the Hebrew word behind orthotomew and what is its meaning? Eddie MishoePastor — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Tue Jul 7 20:55:37 EDT 2009
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc. [] holy spirit, no article, 48 places? Given that Hebrew YSR piel is glossed by ORQOTOMEW exclusively in Prov 3:6 and 11:5, it would seems that the translator of Proverbs wanted something different from other Greek glosses used in the LXX (EUQUS, EUQU POIEW, KATEUQUNW, KATORQOW). For its specific sense one should look not at the meaning of Hebrew YSR, it seems to me, but rather at the context of the Greek. In 3:6 NETS uses “to make straight,” whereas in 11:5 it uses “to cut out.” As I see it, the latter gloss is more apt than the former. In both passages, the image would seem to be that of “road building” (de novo) rather than of “road straitening.”AlOn Jul 7, 2009, at 4:22 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> Prov 3.6 LXX> 6 ἐν πάσαις ὁδοῖς σου γνώριζε αὐτήν, > ἵνα ὀρθοτομῇ τὰς ὁδούς σου,[ ὁ δὲ > πούς σου οὐ μὴ προσκόπτῃ. ]> 6 EN PASAIS hODOIS SOU GNWRIZE AUTHN, hINA ORQOTOMHi TAS hODOUS SOU, > [hO DE POUS SOU MH PROSKOPTHi.]> > Prov 11.5 LXX> 5 δικαιοσύνη ἀμώμους ὀρθοτομεῖ > ὁδούς, ἀσέβεια δὲ περιπίπτει > ἀδικίᾳ.> 5 DIKAIOSUNH AMWMOUS ORQOTOMEI hODOUS, ASEBEIA PERIPIPTEI ADIKIAi.> > In both cases the Hebrew word is ישׁר Y$R which is glossed “be > straight, smooth, right.” When used with בְּעֵינֵי B.: > (“YN”Y “in the eyes of” and a person [or God] it signifies “to > please.”> > > george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > > > ________________________________> From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>> To: B Greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 1:00:10 PM> Subject: Re: [] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.> > > I wonder if a Hebrew scholar can contribute to the meaning of this > hapax legomenon (in the NT) by explaining the Hebrew word that the > LXX translates in Prov 3.6 or 11.5. What is the Hebrew word behind > orthotomew and what is its meaning?> > Eddie Mishoe> Pastor> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/—Albert Pietersma PhD21 Cross Street,Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
[] 2 Tim 2.15 – Al Pietersma, Buth, etc.[] holy spirit, no article, 48 places?