Titus 2:11

Titus 2:11 Kevin Smith kgs at iafrica.com
Sun Sep 19 04:23:47 EDT 1999

 

DE “Grammatical” Categories Dear friends, Titus 2:11-12a in NA27 reads:EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS…. I am trying to figure out the logical function of SWTHRIOS. Grammatically it must be predicate adjective modifying CARIS. But what is its logical function? Is it wrong to see it as logically co-ordinate with PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS…, with both SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS and PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS… conveying results of the appearing of God’s grace? The logic would then be as follows: The grace of God has appeared. It brings salvation to all men [Result 1]. It teaches us… [Result 2]. Would someone please correct me if necessary. Many thanks,Kevin SmithPort Elizabethkgs at iafrica.com ————– next part ————–An HTML attachment was scrubbed…URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19990919/dbb5a0fb/attachment.html

 

DE”Grammatical” Categories

Titus 2:11 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Sep 19 08:03:09 EDT 1999

 

“Grammatical” Categories A fanfare for our new co-chair: Carlton Winbery At 10:23 AM +0200 9/19/99, Kevin Smith wrote:>Dear friends,> >Titus 2:11-12a in NA27 reads:>EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS….> >I am trying to figure out the logical function of SWTHRIOS. Grammatically>it must be predicate adjective modifying CARIS. But what is its logical>function? Is it wrong to see it as logically co-ordinate with PAIDEUOUSA>hHMAS…, with both SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS and PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS…>conveying results of the appearing of God’s grace? The logic would then be>as follows: The grace of God has appeared. It brings salvation to all men>[Result 1]. It teaches us… [Result 2]. Would someone please correct me>if necessary.The distinction I want to make here is so subtle that I pause beforewriting and sending this note–the distinction may be so subtle as not tobe worth making, and yet I really think there is one. I don’t reallydisagree (I think) with what has been said here so much as I am a bittroubled by the way it has been expressed. It may very well be that the wayI’d put this is more or less equivalent to the way Kevin has put it. Butlet me try to spell out a difference.While I would agree with this understanding of the way the elementsSWTHRIOS … and PAIDEUOUSA … relate to each other and to EPEFANH hHCARIS, I don’t think I would speak of “salvation-bringing” and”instructing” so much as RESULTS, but perhaps more as CHARACTERIZATIONS ofwhat the grace of God, now manifest, EFFECTS. My own Englished paraphrasewould be thus: “God’s grace has become manifest, now bringing salvation toall humanity and educating us …”Are the “salvation-bringing” and “educational” characterizations of thisgrace CONSEQUENCES of the grace’s “manifestation”? I think that one COULDunderstand what is here said that way, BUT I think that perspective wouldmore likely be expressed in a formulation of the idea thus: EPEFANH GAR hHCARIS TOU QEOU hWSTE SWZEIN PANTAS ANQRWPOUS, PAIDEUEIN TE hHMAS orEPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU EIS TO SWZESQAI PANTAS ANQRWPOUS KAI EIS TOPAIDEUESQAI hHMAS or EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU hINA SWZHi PANTASANQRWPOUS KAI PAIDEUHi hHMAS …I really don’t doubt that the author might concur with the notion that thesalvation and education that come along with the dawning of God’s grace areINTENDED (i.e. purpose) and are CONSEQUENT (i.e. result) of the dawning.And yet, I really do think that the author would have phrased theseelements differently if that’s what he’d meant to communicate.Perhaps it will be useful if I call attention to a construction that doesnot get taught very effectively if it gets taught at all: indirectdiscourse with participle and verb of perception. For instance:EIDON TOUS TOU IHSOU MAQHTAS DIDASKONTAS ALLOUS. While this iscommonly enough understood and converted into English as “I saw Jesus’disciples teaching others,” it would be more accurately understood andconverted as “I saw THAT Jesus’ disciples were teaching others”–i.e it’snot simply a matter of my seeing the disciples WHILE they were teachingothers, but rather of my observation regarding the disciples THAT they wereengaged in the process of teaching others. This sentence can easily beconverted into a passive formulation as follows: EFANHSAN hOI TOU IHSOUMAQHTAI DIDASKONTES ALLOUS, and this sentence too might readily beunderstood and Englished as “The disciples of Jesus were revealed asteaching others,” but the meaning would be conveyed more clearly if phrasedthus: “It became public knowledge that the disciples of Jesus were teachingothers.”Now let’s turn back to the construction in Titus 2:11. It reads: EPEFANHGAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS … I wouldsay that this too is really an instance of the same construction, and thatit could be Englished thus: “For God’s grace became manifest as saving toall humanity and instructing us …” OR “For it became manifest that God’sgrace saves all humanity and instructs us …”I don’t have ready at hand the NT Greek grammars to give references forthis item of syntax, but I’ll try to get them and indicate them in anothermessage when I get to my office; in the meantime, anyone interested canconsult the Perseus Smyth grammar, ##2106-2115.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: text/enrichedSize: 4583 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19990919/86195b93/attachment.bin

 

“Grammatical” CategoriesA fanfare for our new co-chair: Carlton Winbery

Titus 2:11 Kevin Smith kgs at iafrica.com
Mon Sep 20 06:27:27 EDT 1999

 

Kids Greek Titus 2:11 Dear friends,Thanks for the feedback, Carl. Forgive me for not including it in my initial question, but I have another question about Titus 2:11-12a, which reads:EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS….Technically speaking, does PAIDEUOUSA modify CARIS or EPEFANH? Is the distinction at all relevant? I would have expected it to modify EPEFANH, but if PAIDEUOUSA and SWTHRIOS are logically co-ordinate, I would expect them to both be modifying the same word. Presumably SWTHRIOS (adjective) must be modifying CARIS (noun).Regards,Kevin SmithPort Elizabeth, South Africakgs at iafrica.com —–Original Message—– From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu> To: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu> Cc: Biblical Greek < at franklin.oit.unc.edu> Date: 19 September 1999 15:20 Subject: Re: Titus 2:11 At 10:23 AM +0200 9/19/99, Kevin Smith wrote: Dear friends, Titus 2:11-12a in NA27 reads: EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS…. I am trying to figure out the logical function of SWTHRIOS. Grammatically it must be predicate adjective modifying CARIS. But what is its logical function? Is it wrong to see it as logically co-ordinate with PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS…, with both SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS and PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS… conveying results of the appearing of God’s grace? The logic would then be as follows: The grace of God has appeared. It brings salvation to all men [Result 1]. It teaches us… [Result 2]. Would someone please correct me if necessary. The distinction I want to make here is so subtle that I pause before writing and sending this note–the distinction may be so subtle as not to be worth making, and yet I really think there is one. I don’t really disagree (I think) with what has been said here so much as I am a bit troubled by the way it has been expressed. It may very well be that the way I’d put this is more or less equivalent to the way Kevin has put it. But let me try to spell out a difference. While I would agree with this understanding of the way the elements SWTHRIOS … and PAIDEUOUSA … relate to each other and to EPEFANH hH CARIS, I don’t think I would speak of “salvation-bringing” and “instructing” so much as RESULTS, but perhaps more as CHARACTERIZATIONS of what the grace of God, now manifest, EFFECTS. My own Englished paraphrase would be thus: “God’s grace has become manifest, now bringing salvation to all humanity and educating us …” Are the “salvation-bringing” and “educational” characterizations of this grace CONSEQUENCES of the grace’s “manifestation”? I think that one COULD understand what is here said that way, BUT I think that perspective would more likely be expressed in a formulation of the idea thus: EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU hWSTE SWZEIN PANTAS ANQRWPOUS, PAIDEUEIN TE hHMAS or EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU EIS TO SWZESQAI PANTAS ANQRWPOUS KAI EIS TO PAIDEUESQAI hHMAS or EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU hINA SWZHi PANTAS ANQRWPOUS KAI PAIDEUHi hHMAS … I really don’t doubt that the author might concur with the notion that the salvation and education that come along with the dawning of God’s grace are INTENDED (i.e. purpose) and are CONSEQUENT (i.e. result) of the dawning. And yet, I really do think that the author would have phrased these elements differently if that’s what he’d meant to communicate. Perhaps it will be useful if I call attention to a construction that does not get taught very effectively if it gets taught at all: indirect discourse with participle and verb of perception. For instance: EIDON TOUS TOU IHSOU MAQHTAS DIDASKONTAS ALLOUS. While this is commonly enough understood and converted into English as “I saw Jesus’ disciples teaching others,” it would be more accurately understood and converted as “I saw THAT Jesus’ disciples were teaching others”–i.e it’s not simply a matter of my seeing the disciples WHILE they were teaching others, but rather of my observation regarding the disciples THAT they were engaged in the process of teaching others. This sentence can easily be converted into a passive formulation as follows: EFANHSAN hOI TOU IHSOU MAQHTAI DIDASKONTES ALLOUS, and this sentence too might readily be understood and Englished as “The disciples of Jesus were revealed as teaching others,” but the meaning would be conveyed more clearly if phrased thus: “It became public knowledge that the disciples of Jesus were teaching others.” Now let’s turn back to the construction in Titus 2:11. It reads: EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS … I would say that this too is really an instance of the same construction, and that it could be Englished thus: “For God’s grace became manifest as saving to all humanity and instructing us …” OR “For it became manifest that God’s grace saves all humanity and instructs us …” I don’t have ready at hand the NT Greek grammars to give references for this item of syntax, but I’ll try to get them and indicate them in another message when I get to my office; in the meantime, anyone interested can consult the Perseus Smyth grammar, ##2106-2115. Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics/Washington University One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018 Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649 cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/ ————– next part ————–An HTML attachment was scrubbed…URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19990920/7722b831/attachment.html

 

Kids GreekTitus 2:11

Titus 2:11 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 20 06:54:23 EDT 1999

 

Titus 2:11 DE At 12:27 PM +0200 9/20/99, Kevin Smith wrote:>Dear friends,> >Thanks for the feedback, Carl. Forgive me for not including it in my>initial question, but I have another question about Titus 2:11-12a, which>reads:>EPEFANH GAR hH CARIS TOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS….> >Technically speaking, does PAIDEUOUSA modify CARIS or EPEFANH? Is the>distinction at all relevant? I would have expected it to modify EPEFANH,>but if PAIDEUOUSA and SWTHRIOS are logically co-ordinate, I would expect>them to both be modifying the same word. Presumably SWTHRIOS (adjective)>must be modifying CARIS (noun).Yes, both (SWTHRIOS and PAIDEUOUSA) are in agreement with CARIS–they taketheir gender, number, and case from it–but they construe with EPEFANH inthe same way that any supplementary or circumstantial participle construeswith the verb, to qualify its applicability.I’ll give you the further references in NT grammars for that constructionof supplementary participles with verbs of perception, showing, andrevealing when I get to my office this morning.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: text/enrichedSize: 1359 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19990920/7281f120/attachment.bin

 

Titus 2:11DE

Titus 2:11 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 20 09:28:54 EDT 1999

 

godbreathed “Grammatical” Categories At 5:54 AM -0500 9/20/99, Carl W. Conrad wrote:> >I’ll give you the further references in NT grammars for that construction>of supplementary participles with verbs of perception, showing, and>revealing when I get to my office this morning.I don’t really find an adequate discussion of what I have called the”supplementary participle” construction in our text, EPEFANH GAR hH CARISTOU QEOU SWTHRIOS PASIN ANQRWPOIS PAIDEUOUSA hHMAS … in the NT referenceworks available to me; BDF ##414-416 do deal with the construction asrelates to verbs of cognition and perception, but don’t discuss thispassage; nor does A.T. Robertson mention it in his discussion ofsupplementary participles in the big grammar, pp. 1119-1124. The nearestthat Wallace comes to discussing these participles, so far as I can find,is his discussion of participles in indirect discourse (pp. 645-6) andcomplementary participles (p. 646), nor does his brief references to Titus2:11 bear upon our question. At any rate, I find nothing in these grammarsto make me want to alter what I said about this passage yesterday.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: text/enrichedSize: 1336 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19990920/02e7ca87/attachment.bin

 

godbreathed”Grammatical” Categories