Objective Genitive in Rom. 3:22 Jim Ellis jellis at dallas.net
Sun Oct 3 14:16:07 EDT 1999
1 Cor 6:18 Matt 19:9 Hi Folks,I am new to the List. Pardon me if this question seems trivial to you.It seems almost redundant for Paul to say “even the righteousness of Godthrough faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe,” (Rom. 3:22). Whyis it not appropriate to render “dia pistews Iesou Christou” as subjectiverather than objective, i.e. “through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ forall those who believe.”?Your fellow pilgrim,Jim Ellis
1 Cor 6:18Matt 19:9
Objective Genitive in Rom. 3:22 Alan Wong awong at ma.ultranet.com
Mon Oct 4 14:00:54 EDT 1999
FW: Microsoft and AOL Merger difficult text Hi Jim,Jim Ellis wrote on Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:16:07-0500:> Hi Folks,> I am new to the List. Pardon me if this question seems trivial to> you.> > It seems almost redundant for Paul to say “even the righteousness> of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe,” > (Rom. 3:22). Why is it not appropriate to render “dia pistews> Iesou Christou” as subjective rather than objective, i.e. “through> the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for> all those who believe.”?This is NOT a trivial question. It’s an ongoing debateright now in Pauline theology … If you have a copy of Wallace,he refers in his footnotes to papers arguing for both sidesof the arguments. Probably the most informative pair of articlesis the one in a SBL Seminar by Richard Hays (subjective) andJames Dunn (objective). One option that I think should be consideredis the plenary genitive.Since the context of Rom 3:22 is talking about the righteousnessof God that has been revealed apart from the law (i.e. Christ’swork on the cross), it seems that here subjective genitive ismore probable. However, the argument for a subjective genitiveseems a little awkward considering Paul’s interaction with thefaith of Abraham in Rom 4. Personally, I learn toward taking itas an objective genitive, but I am still sympathetic toward thesubjective.-Grace & Peace,Alan WongM.Div. candidateGordon-Conwell Seminary
FW: Microsoft and AOL Mergerdifficult text
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 8 11:30:40 EDT 2006
[] ECOMEN or ECWMEN – Rom. 5.1 [] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 There seems to be considerable debate about whether ornot the Subjective or Objective is to be understoodwith this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”(where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) beexpressed in Greek unambiguously?Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] ECOMEN or ECWMEN – Rom. 5.1[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Sun Apr 9 16:00:53 EDT 2006
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 [] Matthew 28:17: hOI DE EDISTASAN Mitch wrote,> There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> expressed in Greek unambiguously?Mitch,I would say…absolutely !An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with faith in/toward Christ:PISTEUOUSI EIS TON CRISTONor you, Mitch:PISTEUEIS EIS TON CRISTONor us all:PISTEUOMEN EIS TON CRISTONThese are surely examples of simply, plainly and without ambiguity expressing the concept of faith in/toward Christ.In Romans 3:22 TOUS PISTEUONTAS by the act of believing…grants them access to, I would say, whatever is contained in DIA PISTEWS CRISTOU, which in turn gives them access to DIKAIOSUNH QEOU; if not so, or if DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU indicates plainly (faith in Christ) what need would there be for EIS PANTAS KAI EPI PANTAS TOUS PISEUONTAS ?Much like Abraham firstly believed…then entered into what was represented by his taking Isaac to the mountain…all this then resulting in his being granted the DIKAIONSUNH QEOU….all in their order. Interesting how here in Romans 3:22 we see the order presented in reverse. The prize…the means…the initial entrance.Virgil NewkirkSalt Lake City
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22[] Matthew 28:17: hOI DE EDISTASAN
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 George F Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Sun Apr 9 18:42:28 EDT 2006
[] Matthew 28:17: hOI DE EDISTASAN [] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:00:53 -0600 “virgil newkirk”<virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:> > Mitch wrote,> > > > There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> > not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> > with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> > however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> > (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> > expressed in Greek unambiguously?> > > > Mitch,> > I would say…absolutely !> > An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with > faith > in/toward Christ:> > PISTEUOUSI EIS TON CRISTON> > or you, Mitch:> > PISTEUEIS EIS TON CRISTON> > or us all:> > PISTEUOMEN EIS TON CRISTON> > These are surely examples of simply, plainly and without ambiguity > expressing the concept of faith in/toward Christ.> > In Romans 3:22 TOUS PISTEUONTAS by the act of believing…grants > them access > to, I would say, whatever is contained in DIA PISTEWS CRISTOU, which > in turn > gives them access to DIKAIOSUNH QEOU; if not so, or if DIA PISTEWS > IHSOU > CRISTOU indicates plainly (faith in Christ) what need would there be > for EIS > PANTAS KAI EPI PANTAS TOUS PISEUONTAS ?> > > Much like Abraham firstly believed…then entered into what was > represented > by his taking Isaac to the mountain…all this then resulting in > his being > granted the DIKAIONSUNH QEOU….all in their order. Interesting how > here in > Romans 3:22 we see the order presented in reverse. The prize…the > means…the initial entrance.> > > Virgil Newkirk> Salt Lake City____________EIS TON XRISTON never appears in the NT as a qualification of the verbPISTEUW. In 2 Cor 11.3 we findFOBOUMAI DE MH PWS, hWS hO OFIS ECEPATHSEN EUAN EN THi PANOURGIAi AUTOU,FQARHi TA NOHMATA hUMWN APO THS hAPOLTHTOS [KAI THS hAGNOTHTOS] THS EISTON XRISTONIt does appear in Acts 19.4 in the Byz Maj and TR texts which have EISTON XRISTON, but not in the critical texts which have IHSOUN rather thanXRISTONhINA PISTEUSWSIN, TOUT’ ESTIN EIS TON IHSOUN.Of course, one might say that this is virtually the same thing.georgegfsomsel___________
[] Matthew 28:17: hOI DE EDISTASAN[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Mon Apr 10 00:35:02 EDT 2006
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 [] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 George wrote:> On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:00:53 -0600 “virgil newkirk”> <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:> >> > Mitch wrote,> >> > There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> > not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> > with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> > however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> > (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> > expressed in Greek unambiguously?> >> >> > Mitch,> >> > I would say…absolutely !> >> > An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with> > faith> > in/toward Christ:> >> > PISTEUOUSI EIS TON CRISTON> >> > or you, Mitch:> >> > PISTEUEIS EIS TON CRISTON> >> > or us all:> >> > PISTEUOMEN EIS TON CRISTON <Snip> Virgil Newkirk Salt Lake CityGS:> EIS TON XRISTON never appears in the NT as a qualification of the verb> PISTEUW. In 2 Cor 11.3 we find> > FOBOUMAI DE MH PWS, hWS hO OFIS ECEPATHSEN EUAN EN THi PANOURGIAi AUTOU,> FQARHi TA NOHMATA hUMWN APO THS hAPOLTHTOS [KAI THS hAGNOTHTOS] THS EIS> TON XRISTON> > It does appear in Acts 19.4 in the Byz Maj and TR texts which have EIS> TON XRISTON, but not in the critical texts which have IHSOUN rather than> XRISTON> > hINA PISTEUSWSIN, TOUT’ ESTIN EIS TON IHSOUN.> > Of course, one might say that this is virtually the same thing.> > george> gfsomselVN:Yes, George, as you say.However, (not to be picky) but Mitch’s question was not how the Greek New Testament expresses ‘faith in/toward Christ’, but was:Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ” (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be expressed in Greek unambiguously?Thus my response with the three following examples: PISTEUOUSI EIS TON CRISTON or you, Mitch: PISTEUEIS EIS TON CRISTON or us all: PISTEUOMEN EIS TON CRISTONThe point being, I think, from Mitch; what about all these so-called instances of ambiguity….is it really so ?As far as the GNT; we find numerous examples of the unambiguous expression of ‘faith in/toward Christ.’We find very clear and economical expressions of ‘faith in/toward Christ’ ‘NOT’ in DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CHRISTOU (note different translations from different scholars), but in the following:John 2:11….EPISTEUSAN EIS AUTONJohn 3:16…PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTONJohn 3:18…hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTONJohn 3:36…hO PISTEUWN EIS TON hUIONJohn 6:29…PISTEUHTE EIS hONJohn 6:40…PISTEUWN EIS AUTONJohn 7:5 …negated EPISTEUON EIS AUTONJohn 7:31…EPISTEUSAN EIS AUTONJohn 7:38…hO PISTEUWN EIS EMEJohn 7:39…hOI PISTEUSANTES EIS AUTONActs 8:37…PISTEUW TON hUIONActs 9:42…POLLOI EPI TON KURIONRomans 9:33…hO PISTEUWN EP AUTWi1Peter 1:8 …TOUS PISTOUS EIS QEONand a final example from 1John5:13…TOIS PISTEUOUSIN EIS TO ONOMA TOU hUIOU TOU QEOUSurely these are clear and concise statements (by four different authors btw) in the GNT, expressing ‘faith in/toward Christ and God.’Virgil NewkirkSalt Lake City
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Mon Apr 10 11:22:09 EDT 2006
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22 [] Mark 3:14 Speaking of ambiguity, consider my first question agood example of just that, unintentionally. Afterreading some of the replies, I actually would now liketo ask yet another question.Is there a different preposition phrase, that can besubstituted for DIA PISTEWS, that would remove theambiguity (so that it would be either a Subjective orObjective meaning)? Rather than completely changing anominal (DIA PISTEWS) expression into a verbal one (assome examples pointed out), could Tertius have used ENor PROS or EIS plus a Genitive or Accusative? If so,I’ve got to believe that the ambiguity was intentional.Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU – Rom. 3.22[] Mark 3:14