Revelation 19:9

Translation of Revelation 19:9 Ken Flowers kflowers at alum.mit.edu
Wed Apr 19 17:26:22 EDT 2000

Previous message: John 1:1-3 in Koine set to music Next message: 1 John 2:8 I’m new to the list, so I hope this is cogent. I’m doing some research into the role of the Holy Spirit in Revelation. I need to understand a nuance of translation that I can’t seem to get from Strongs or a Greek parallel. King James and others translate Rev. 19:9 as “…he said…” NIV and others translate the same as “…the angel said…” I can’t see any justification in the Greek I’ve seen for “the angel.” The reason this matters is that I’m looking at the possibility that the recurring unnamed voice in Rev. is the voice of the Holy Spirit. The text of 19:5 seems to support this, but if the speaker doesn’t change to an angel at 19:9, then the context of 19:10 is rather different if applied to the Spirit.Thanks in advance for any insight,Ken FlowersLexington MA

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Translation of Revelation 19:9 Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Wed Apr 19 20:13:27 EDT 2000

Previous message: 1 John 2:8 Next message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 In a message dated 4/19/2000 5:35:43 PM Central Standard Time, kflowers at alum.mit.edu writes:<< I need to understand a nuance of translation that I can’t seem to get from Strongs or a Greek parallel. King James and others translate Rev. 19:9 as “…he said…” NIV and others translate the same as “…the angel said…” I can’t see any justification in the Greek I’ve seen for “the angel.” >>Although it is true that Rev. 19.9 readsKAI LEGEI MOI, GRAYON, MAKARIOI hOI EIS TO DEIPNON TOU GAMOU TOU ARNIOU KEKLHMENOI. KAI LEGEI MOI hOUTOI hOI LOGOI ALHQINOI TOU QEOU EISIN.And ** HE ** said, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage feast of the Lamb.'” And ** HE ** said to me, “These are the true words of God.”with no mention of whom this “HE” might be in this immediate section, you must go back to Rev. 18.21. There it statesKAI HREN hEIS AGGELOS ISXUROS LIQON hWS MULINON MEGAN KAI EBALEN EIS THN QALASSAN LEGWN, “hOUTWS hORMHMATI BLHQHSETAI BABULWN hH MEGALH POLIS KAI OU MH hEUREQHi ETI. Then a strong angel lifted a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea saying, “Thus violently shall be cast down Babylon, the great city And it shall never be found again.”This is the antecedent to LEGEI in Rev. 19.9. While the verse does not itself contain the word AGGELOS, it does refer back to it. Apparently the translators felt the necessity to make this clear due to the intervening section describing the reaction to the casting of the millstone into the sea and the pronouncement of judgement against “Babylon.”gfsomsel

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Translation of Revelation 19:9 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Wed Apr 19 20:25:15 EDT 2000

Previous message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 Next message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 <gfsomel>…This is the antecedent to LEGEI in Rev. 19.9. While the verse does notitself contain the word AGGELOS, it does refer back to it. Apparently thetranslators felt the necessity to make this clear due to the interveningsection describing the reaction to the casting of the millstone into the seaand the pronouncement of judgement against “Babylon.”<Bill>Just a reminder that “AGGELOS” means “messenger”. While this is commonlyused for cherubim and seraphim et al, it is valid for others, including menor other communicators. Hence, one must ask who the messenger in theantecedent is.I’m not making a case for this not being a cherubim or seraphim or what haveyou, only posing a reminder lest we stumble on our assumptions. I do tend tothink that it less often means cherubim et al than is commonly assumed.Bill Rosshttp://members.xoom.com/woundedego

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Translation of Revelation 19:9 Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Wed Apr 19 20:44:08 EDT 2000

Previous message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 Next message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 In a message dated 4/19/2000 6:27:09 PM Central Standard Time, wross at farmerstel.com writes:<< Just a reminder that “AGGELOS” means “messenger”. While this is commonly used for cherubim and seraphim et al, it is valid for others, including men or other communicators. Hence, one must ask who the messenger in the antecedent is. >>You are absolutely correct in your statement. In the 7 letters of Caps. 2, 3 I think reference is made to human messengers — the bishops or presbyters of the various churches. Here, however, I think it’s fairly clear that a non-human messenger is indicated.gfsomsel

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Translation of Revelation 19:9 B. Ward Powers bwpowers at eagles.com.au
Thu Apr 20 01:54:51 EDT 2000

Previous message: Translation of Revelation 19:9 Next message: Latin in Barnabas Memo Bill and co.,At 07:25 PM 000419 -0500, Bill Ross wrote:><gfsomel>>…This is the antecedent to LEGEI in Rev. 19.9. While the verse does not>itself contain the word AGGELOS, it does refer back to it. Apparently the>translators felt the necessity to make this clear due to the intervening>section describing the reaction to the casting of the millstone into the sea>and the pronouncement of judgement against “Babylon.”> ><Bill>>Just a reminder that “AGGELOS” means “messenger”. While this is commonly>used for cherubim and seraphim et al, I would very much query your identification of AGGELOS with “cherubim andseraphim et al”. Cherubim are mentioned in twelve books of the OT, fromGenesis 3:24 onwards, and once in the NT (CEROUB, Heb 9:5). Seraphim areonly mentioned in the OT in Isaiah 6:1-7. and not at all in the NT. Bothtypes of beings have wings (for cherubim, see e.g. Exodus 25:20; forseraphim, Isaiah 6:2 – note, six wings!!). They are never confused withangels in the Bible; they do not look like angels (from respectivedescriptions given) and they certainly do not look like men. Their role andfunction is very different from that ascribed to angels.Angels are NEVER described as having wings. Their appearance (in both OTand NT references) is described as being that of young men, and indeed inseveral passages they are taken (by some of those who see them) to be youngmen. Their role is uniformly as that of God’s messengers, bringing someannouncement or message from him. Which of course is indicated by thesignificance of their name as AGGELOS.>it is valid for others, including men>or other communicators. Hence, one must ask who the messenger in the>antecedent is.Your point is well made that the word AGGELOS can also be used in refernceto human messengers appointed by God.>I’m not making a case for this not being a cherubim or seraphim You can’t have “a” cherubim or serephim: these words are Hebrew, and theform is plural. The singular is cherub and seraph.>or what have>you, only posing a reminder lest we stumble on our assumptions. I do tend to>think that it less often means cherubim et al than is commonly assumed.I more than agree – in fact, it NEVER means cherubim.>Bill Ross>http://members.xoom.com/woundedegoIn the interests of clarity in our use of biblical terms,Ward http://www.eagles.bbs.net.au/~bwpowersRev Dr B. Ward Powers Phone (International): 61-2-9799-750110 Grosvenor Crescent Phone (Australia): (02) 9799-7501SUMMER HILL NSW 2130 email: bwpowers at eagles.bbs.net.auAUSTRALIA. Director, Tyndale College

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Translation of Revelation 19:9 Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Thu Apr 20 17:43:37 EDT 2000

Previous message: Mark 15:34 Next message: Mark 15:34 In a message dated 4/20/2000 6:50:54 AM Central Standard Time, kflowers at mc.com writes:<< What makes you want to jump all the way back to 18.21 for the antecedent. Wouldn’t either 19:5 or 19:6 do just as well? Or is there some trick of the Greek that causes you to bypass 5 and 6? >>It’s not strictly a linguistic matter that causes me to go back to 18.21. It is a matter of the structure of the passage. The angel’s speech continues through the rest of Cap. 18. 19.1 begins the response to the angel’s speech which continues through 19.8 so that 19.9 picks up with the angel again.gfsomsel

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