Titus 1:12

[] Titus 1:12-13 Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Tue Dec 8 22:33:55 EST 2009

 

[] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1 [] Titus 1:12-13 First, I have copied Tit 1:12-13 with some phrase and line breaks added:Titus(1:12) EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN, IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS, <KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI,KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.>(1:13a) hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS.(1:13b) DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN TH PISTEI.I came across this text discussed in a wonderful book I’m lately reading:Anthony Thiselton, _ Interpreting God and the Postmodern Self _ (1995 Eerdmans)His comment made me think.My question is:v. 13a is usually taken as”There is a truth in such testimonial of his.” “This testimony is true.”Is it possible (in terms of grammar and syntax) to take v. 13a assomething of interrogative?”Is there a truth in such testimonial of his?”I guess, I must be trying to take it kind of a rhetoric argument”Isn’t there a truth ~?”Oun Kwon.P.S. Thiselton writes on this text (pp. 37-38]:… Almost every commentator tries to find some ‘excuse’ for ajudgmental steretypification of Cretans as liars. Some argue that’This testimony is true’ reflects either the opinion of the writer [ofthe Epistle] based on experience, or a consensus behind suchstereotypification in the ancient world. But the author can hardlyfail to have been aware that in Greek logic the paradox of the liarposed a familiar dilemma. If a habitual liar says, ‘Everything that Isay is a lie’, is this true or false? If we add, ‘this testimony istrue’, are we corroborating its truth or its falsity? All this shows, as the writer well knows, that the paradox isneither true nor false but self-defeating. But self-defeatingparadoxes perform other functions at a different level, whether inGreek philosophy or in modern mathematical logic. They invite us toview the ‘claim’ from another angle. In practice, the aim of thewriter has nothing to do with assassinating the character of Cretans,but with demonstrating a lack of logical symmetry between first-persontestimony and third-person statement. The former draws its currency incertain cases from the stance and personal history of the speaker.Here the writer disparages the value of endless verbal rhetoric. Thiscan be self-defeating unless the speaker lives a blameless life whichgives his or her speech operative currency. Hence this proposition isa meta-statement about self-defeating language and also an injunctionto focus on the kind of life-style urged throughout the epistle togive validity to the witness of the church and of its elders. In myarticle I offer reasons why Patristic exegesis set subsequentinterpretation [of this text] on the wrong track. We conclude that ‘truth’ in the biblical writings is more complex,subtle, and richly diverse in emphasis than alleged differencesbetween ‘Greek’ and ‘Hebraic’ notions of truth suggest. W. Pannenbergrightly perceives that they do not characteristically view truth as’timeless’ or abstract. ‘The truth of God must prove itself anew.’Truth ‘proves itself in relationships and thus has personalcharacter’.

 

[] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 8 22:53:16 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 I think this is a bit too philosophical for the nature of the writing. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ —– Original Message —-From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Tue, December 8, 2009 8:33:55 PMSubject: [] Titus 1:12-13First, I have copied Tit 1:12-13 with some phrase and line breaks added:Titus(1:12) EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN, IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS,<KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI,KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.>(1:13a) hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS.(1:13b) DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN TH PISTEI.I came across this text discussed in a wonderful book I’m lately reading:Anthony Thiselton, _ Interpreting God and the Postmodern Self _ (1995 Eerdmans)His comment made me think.My question is:v. 13a is usually taken as”There is a truth in such testimonial of his.” “This testimony is true.”Is it possible (in terms of grammar and syntax) to take v. 13a assomething of interrogative?”Is there a truth in such testimonial of his?”I guess, I must be trying to take it kind of a rhetoric argument”Isn’t there a truth ~?”Oun Kwon.P.S. Thiselton writes on this text (pp. 37-38]:… Almost every commentator tries to find some ‘excuse’ for ajudgmental steretypification of Cretans as liars. Some argue that’This testimony is true’ reflects either the opinion of the writer [ofthe Epistle] based on experience, or a consensus behind suchstereotypification in the ancient world. But the author can hardlyfail to have been aware that in Greek logic the paradox of the liarposed a familiar dilemma. If a habitual liar says, ‘Everything that Isay is a lie’, is this true or false? If we add, ‘this testimony istrue’, are we corroborating its truth or its falsity?    All this shows, as the writer well knows, that the paradox isneither true nor false but self-defeating. But self-defeatingparadoxes perform other  functions at a different level, whether inGreek philosophy or in modern mathematical logic. They invite us toview the ‘claim’ from another angle. In practice, the aim of thewriter has nothing to do with assassinating the character of Cretans,but with demonstrating a lack of logical symmetry between first-persontestimony and third-person statement. The former draws its currency incertain cases from the stance and personal history of the speaker.Here the writer disparages the value of endless verbal rhetoric. Thiscan be self-defeating unless the speaker lives a blameless life whichgives his or her speech operative currency. Hence this proposition isa meta-statement about self-defeating language and also an injunctionto focus on the kind of life-style urged throughout the epistle togive validity to the witness of the church and of its elders. In myarticle I offer reasons why Patristic exegesis set subsequentinterpretation [of this text] on the wrong track.    We conclude that ‘truth’ in the biblical writings is more complex,subtle, and richly diverse in emphasis than alleged differencesbetween ‘Greek’ and ‘Hebraic’ notions of truth suggest. W. Pannenbergrightly perceives that they do not characteristically view truth as’timeless’ or abstract. ‘The truth of God must prove itself anew.’Truth ‘proves itself in relationships and thus has personalcharacter’.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 00:52:14 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Why would you say that?Yancy Smith, PhDyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:53 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> I think this is a bit too philosophical for the nature of the writing.> george> gfsomsel > > > … search for truth, hear truth, > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, > defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________ > > > > —– Original Message —-> From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>> To: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 8:33:55 PM> Subject: [] Titus 1:12-13> > First, I have copied Tit 1:12-13 with some phrase and line breaks added:> > Titus> (1:12) EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN, IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS,> > <KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI,> KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.>> > (1:13a) hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS.> > (1:13b) DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN TH PISTEI.> > I came across this text discussed in a wonderful book I’m lately reading:> > Anthony Thiselton, _ Interpreting God and the Postmodern Self _ (1995 Eerdmans)> > His comment made me think.> > My question is:> > v. 13a is usually taken as> “There is a truth in such testimonial of his.” “This testimony is true.”> > Is it possible (in terms of grammar and syntax) to take v. 13a as> something of interrogative?> > “Is there a truth in such testimonial of his?”> > I guess, I must be trying to take it kind of a rhetoric argument> “Isn’t there a truth ~?”> > Oun Kwon.> > P.S. Thiselton writes on this text (pp. 37-38]:> … Almost every commentator tries to find some ‘excuse’ for a> judgmental steretypification of Cretans as liars. Some argue that> ‘This testimony is true’ reflects either the opinion of the writer [of> the Epistle] based on experience, or a consensus behind such> stereotypification in the ancient world. But the author can hardly> fail to have been aware that in Greek logic the paradox of the liar> posed a familiar dilemma. If a habitual liar says, ‘Everything that I> say is a lie’, is this true or false? If we add, ‘this testimony is> true’, are we corroborating its truth or its falsity?> All this shows, as the writer well knows, that the paradox is> neither true nor false but self-defeating. But self-defeating> paradoxes perform other functions at a different level, whether in> Greek philosophy or in modern mathematical logic. They invite us to> view the ‘claim’ from another angle. In practice, the aim of the> writer has nothing to do with assassinating the character of Cretans,> but with demonstrating a lack of logical symmetry between first-person> testimony and third-person statement. The former draws its currency in> certain cases from the stance and personal history of the speaker.> Here the writer disparages the value of endless verbal rhetoric. This> can be self-defeating unless the speaker lives a blameless life which> gives his or her speech operative currency. Hence this proposition is> a meta-statement about self-defeating language and also an injunction> to focus on the kind of life-style urged throughout the epistle to> give validity to the witness of the church and of its elders. In my> article I offer reasons why Patristic exegesis set subsequent> interpretation [of this text] on the wrong track.> We conclude that ‘truth’ in the biblical writings is more complex,> subtle, and richly diverse in emphasis than alleged differences> between ‘Greek’ and ‘Hebraic’ notions of truth suggest. W. Pannenberg> rightly perceives that they do not characteristically view truth as> ‘timeless’ or abstract. ‘The truth of God must prove itself anew.’> Truth ‘proves itself in relationships and thus has personal> character’.> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 01:05:21 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 He basically says: “A Cretan said ‘Cretans are always liars’ “, but if Cretans are always liars, was he telling the truth that Cretans are always liars?  Sounds more philosophical than I suspect the writer would have been.  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ —– Original Message —-From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 10:52:14 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Why would you say that?Yancy Smith, PhDyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:53 PM, George F Somsel wrote:> I think this is a bit too philosophical for the nature of the writing.>  george> gfsomsel > > > … search for truth, hear truth, > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, > defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________ > > > > —– Original Message —-> From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>> To: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 8:33:55 PM> Subject: [] Titus 1:12-13> > First, I have copied Tit 1:12-13 with some phrase and line breaks added:> > Titus> (1:12) EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN, IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS,> > <KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI,> KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.>> > (1:13a) hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS.> > (1:13b) DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN TH PISTEI.> > I came across this text discussed in a wonderful book I’m lately reading:> > Anthony Thiselton, _ Interpreting God and the Postmodern Self _ (1995 Eerdmans)> > His comment made me think.> > My question is:> > v. 13a is usually taken as> “There is a truth in such testimonial of his.” “This testimony is true.”> > Is it possible (in terms of grammar and syntax) to take v. 13a as> something of interrogative?> > “Is there a truth in such testimonial of his?”> > I guess, I must be trying to take it kind of a rhetoric argument> “Isn’t there a truth ~?”> > Oun Kwon.> > P.S. Thiselton writes on this text (pp. 37-38]:> … Almost every commentator tries to find some ‘excuse’ for a> judgmental steretypification of Cretans as liars. Some argue that> ‘This testimony is true’ reflects either the opinion of the writer [of> the Epistle] based on experience, or a consensus behind such> stereotypification in the ancient world. But the author can hardly> fail to have been aware that in Greek logic the paradox of the liar> posed a familiar dilemma. If a habitual liar says, ‘Everything that I> say is a lie’, is this true or false? If we add, ‘this testimony is> true’, are we corroborating its truth or its falsity?>    All this shows, as the writer well knows, that the paradox is> neither true nor false but self-defeating. But self-defeating> paradoxes perform other  functions at a different level, whether in> Greek philosophy or in modern mathematical logic. They invite us to> view the ‘claim’ from another angle. In practice, the aim of the> writer has nothing to do with assassinating the character of Cretans,> but with demonstrating a lack of logical symmetry between first-person> testimony and third-person statement. The former draws its currency in> certain cases from the stance and personal history of the speaker.> Here the writer disparages the value of endless verbal rhetoric. This> can be self-defeating unless the speaker lives a blameless life which> gives his or her speech operative currency. Hence this proposition is> a meta-statement about self-defeating language and also an injunction> to focus on the kind of life-style urged throughout the epistle to> give validity to the witness of the church and of its elders. In my> article I offer reasons why Patristic exegesis set subsequent> interpretation [of this text] on the wrong track.>    We conclude that ‘truth’ in the biblical writings is more complex,> subtle, and richly diverse in emphasis than alleged differences> between ‘Greek’ and ‘Hebraic’ notions of truth suggest. W. Pannenberg> rightly perceives that they do not characteristically view truth as> ‘timeless’ or abstract. ‘The truth of God must prove itself anew.’> Truth ‘proves itself in relationships and thus has personal> character’.> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 09:16:23 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί. ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει, EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus. Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:> I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Wed Dec 9 14:31:12 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 On Dec 9, 2009, at 6:16 AM, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net wrote:> Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to > Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with > irony? He says:> > εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν > προφήτης·> Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, > γαστέρες ἀργαί.> ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ > ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, > ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,> EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—> KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.> hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS > APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEIThere is another potential indication of irony here which has been noted frequently (Mounce Past. Ep. WBC 398, Marshal Past. Ep.ICC p201-202) . The expression KAKA QHRIA probably refers to wild beasts. According to Pliny Nat. Hist. 8.83 and Plutarch Mor. 86c Crete was known for its lack of wild beasts. In Tit. 1:12-13 KAKA QHRIA might be understood to suggest that hOI KRHTES were in some sense the wild beasts of Crete.Plutarch Mor. 86b-c. 86.B.1 Ὁρῶ μὲν ὅτι τὸν πραότατον, ὦ Κορνήλιε Ποῦλχερ, πολιτείας ᾕρησαι τρόπον, ἐν ᾧ μάλιστα τοῖς κοινοῖς ὠφέλιμος ὢν ἀλυπότατον ἰδίᾳ τοῖς ἐν- 86.C.1 τυγχάνουσι παρέχεις σεαυτόν. ἐπεὶ δὲ χώραν μὲν ἄθηρον ὥσπερ ἱστοροῦσι τὴν Κρήτην εὑρεῖν ἔστι, πολιτεία δὲ μήτε φθόνον ἐνηνοχυῖα μήτε ζῆλον ἢ φιλονεικίαν, ἔχθρας γονιμώτατα πάθη, μέχρι νῦν 86.C.5 οὐ γέγονεν (ἀλλ’ εἰ μηδὲν ἄλλο, ταῖς ἔχθραις αἱ φιλίαι συμπλέκουσιν ἡμᾶς· ὃ καὶ Χίλων ὁ σοφὸς νοήσας τὸν εἰπόντα μηδένα ἔχειν ἐχθρὸν ἠρώτησεν εἰ μηδὲ φίλον ἔχει), δοκεῖ μοι τά τ’ ἄλλα περὶ ἐχθρῶν τῷ πολιτικῷ διεσκέφθαι προσήκειν καὶ τοῦ 86.C.10 Ξενοφῶντος ἀκηκοέναι μὴ παρέργως εἰπόντος ὅτι τοῦ νοῦν ἔχοντός ἐστι καὶ “ἀπὸ τῶν ἐχθρῶν ὠφε- λεῖσθαι.” ἅπερ οὖν εἰς τοῦτο πρῴην εἰπεῖν μοι παρέστη, συναγαγὼν ὁμοῦ τι τοῖς αὐτοῖς ὀνόμασιν ἀπέσταλκά σοι, φεισάμενος ὡς ἐνῆν μάλιστα τῶν 86.C.15 ἐν τοῖς Πολιτικοῖς Παραγγέλμασι γεγραμμένων, 86.D.1 ἐπεὶ κἀκεῖνο τὸ βιβλίον ὁρῶ σε πρόχειρον ἔχοντα πολλάκις..86.B.1 hORW MEN hOTI TON PRAOTATON, W KORNHLIE POULCER, POLITEIAS hHiRHSAI TROPON, EN hWi MALISTA TOIS KOINOIS WFELIMOS WN ALUPOTATON IDIAi TOIS EN- 86.C.1 TUGCANOUSI PARECEIS SEAUTON. EPEI DE CWRAN MEN AQHRON hWSPER hISTOROUSI THN KRHTHN hEUREIN ESTI, POLITEIA DE MHTE FQONON ENHNOCUIA MHTE ZHLON H FILONEIKIAN, ECQRAS GONIMWTATA PAQH, MECRI NUN 86.C.5 OU GEGONEN (ALL’ EI MHDEN ALLO, TAIS ECQRAIS hAI FILIAI SUMPLEKOUSIN hHMAS· hO KAI CILWN hO SOFOS NOHSAS TON EIPONTA MHDENA ECEIN ECQRON HRWTHSEN EI MHDE FILON ECEI), DOKEI MOI TA T’ ALLA PERI ECQRWN TWi POLITIKWi DIESKEFQAI PROSHKEIN KAI TOU 86.C.10 XENOFWNTOS AKHKOENAI MH PARERGWS EIPONTOS hOTI TOU NOUN ECONTOS ESTI KAI “APO TWN ECQRWN WFE- LEISQAI.” hAPER OUN EIS TOUTO PRWiHN EIPEIN MOI PARESTH, SUNAGAGWN hOMOU TI TOIS AUTOIS ONOMASIN APESTALKA SOI, FEISAMENOS hWS ENHN MALISTA TWN 86.C.15 EN TOIS POLITIKOIS PARAGGELMASI GEGRAMMENWN, 86.D.1 EPEI KA)KEINO TO BIBLION hORW SE PROCEIRON ECONTA POLLAKIS..Elizabeth Kline

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Blue Meeksbay bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 16:29:48 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13   Dear Yancy – Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) B.Harris________________________________From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:    εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·    Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.     ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,     EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—    KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.    hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus. Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:>  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio..orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 17:07:03 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:29:48 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13  Dear Yancy – Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) B.Harris________________________________From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:    εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·    Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.     ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,     EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—    KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.    hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus.Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:>  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio..orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/      — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Blue Meeksbay bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 17:24:57 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Why would the one necessarily negate the other?B.Harris “The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel________________________________From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:07:03 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:29:48 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13  Dear Yancy – Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) B.Harris________________________________From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:    εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·    Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.     ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,     EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—    KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.    hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus.Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc..com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:>  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio..orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/      — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Blue Meeksbay bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 17:54:08 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 That is a good point! I have never seen a text of Epimenides. Are we really sure this was a saying of his? However, if it was, since Paul was somehow familiar with it, would it not intimate Paul knew what the saying was about? However, now that I think of it, perhaps this saying was simply being repeated by those indicated in verse 10, and thus was not even connected to the original saying of Epimenides, which, if true, might justify your point. It seems such a thing is done all the time, where a popular saying is so divorced from the original source, that people do not even know the source, and so would not know its context. (Although, I cannot think of an example right now!)B.Harris“The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel________________________________From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:31:25 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 3:24:57 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Why would the one necessarily negate the other?B.Harris “The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel________________________________From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:07:03 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists..ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:29:48 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13  Dear Yancy – Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) B.Harris________________________________From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:    εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·    Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.     ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,     EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—    KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.    hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus.Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:>  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio..orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/      — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists..ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Leonard Isaksson leonardo1orchardcity at mac.com
Wed Dec 9 17:53:08 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Urban legends An interesting and thoughtful post you have here, glad you put it up. I will have to look at Towner’s commentary.Apparently some people on Crete had a change of heart, to turn to the Gospel.Is not there also reference in the neighbouring verses to some of the ‘circumcision’ in particular, who are later exhorted to not give heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, a strong concern of Paul’s? There must have been ‘vain talkers’ of several backgrounds on Crete.Leonard IsakssonOn Dec 9, 2009, at 8:16 AM, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net wrote:> Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to > Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? > He says:> > εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·> Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.> ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, > ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,> EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—> KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.> hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, > hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEI> > Check out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on > the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor > contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it > himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the > original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to > reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the > Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS > is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. > …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious > matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have > spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there > too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of > characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious > culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment > to encourage Titus. Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of > redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can > hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is > of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might > remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who > begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult > nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that > of being true, at least in parts.”> > Yancy Smith> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net> Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu> yancy at wbtc.com> 5636 Wedgworth Road> Fort Worth, TX 76133> 817-361-7565> > > > > > > On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:> >> I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.> > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Urban legends

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 17:31:25 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 3:24:57 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Why would the one necessarily negate the other?B.Harris “The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel________________________________From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:07:03 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>To: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>Cc: at lists..ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:29:48 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13  Dear Yancy – Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) B.Harris________________________________From: “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:    εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·    Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.     ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,     EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—    KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.    hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEICheck out Phil Towner’s comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that “Cretans are always liars, etc. …” was an old saw, and especially “true” with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus.Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, “How to Do Things with Words” who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”Yancy Smithyancywsmith at sbcglobal.netY.W.Smith at tcu.eduyancy at wbtc.com5636 Wedgworth RoadFort Worth, TX 76133817-361-7565On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:>  I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio..orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/      — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Yancy Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 18:19:41 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 George said:>Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? …Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture. He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character.B.Harris asked: Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period) [Yancy Smith] I think it is important that we recognize that Paul does not need to say what he assumes his audience already knows. Our problem is that we don’t come to the text with the same assumptions. Here I adapt and cite Towner. You really need to get hold of his commentary. If we assume for a moment that “the prophet” in view is Epimenides, Paul does not consider him a biblical prophet, but rather in the way that Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient writers tended to think of “prophets” — as a teachers, philosophers, and even (according to some accounts) workers of miracles. “Prophet” would then be a title of honor that attached itself to various historical (and legendary) figures known to have been great teachers and poets. Epimenides is clearly associated with Crete as a priest and prophet. Depending on who is read (Plato or Aristotle), he can be dated to the fifth or sixth century B.C.E. The Christian-era writers Clement of Alexandria and Jerome linked the saying to him. Other early Christian writers, however, attribute the saying to Callimachus (third century B.C.E.), whose Hymn to Zeus (line 8) contains the first phrase of the saying. As Paul cites it, the saying was recognized as from a specific Cretan prophet, whoever it was. There is a reference to Callimachus’ teaching in the language of Titus 1:2; that Callimachus also cites the “Cretans are always liars” jibe, whoever Paul has in mind as the prophet, only shows that Paul has at his disposal the necessary traditions to construct, through allusion and citation, a virtual collage of criticisms leveled against Cretan culture by some fairly authoritative figures.”The saying itself divides into three parts, and allows Paul to address the way the opponents speak and behave. Part one, “Cretans are always liars,” is found verbatim in Callimachus (Hymn to Zeus [line 8]; the earliest extant source to preserve the line), who also supplies the reason for this long-standing opinion of Cretan deceitfulness. ‡ This reputation for deceitfulness was, as noted above, widespread and quite possibly linked in a seminal way with the fundamental Cretan religious claim to have the tomb of Zeus on Crete. This in effect reduced the stature of Zeus to that of a human being-become-hero. Behind this Cretan perspective, and the response to it, were opposing “theologies”: Crete’s was a “theology from below,” which maintained that the Greek gods were first men and women. This apparently grew out of the fundamental Cretan belief in its own race as the primal Greek race that emerged from the earth. Cretan beliefs included the view that many of the Greek gods were born on Crete; Zeus also died there. The opposing “theology from above” was the Olympian theology from mainland Greece in which, among other differences, the transcendent status of the gods was protected and the distance between the divine and the human races maintained. Thus the basis of the stereotype was a heretical religious claim.”[Yancy Smith] So, George is right that the text does not directly mention Zeus. But then we often allude to things in natural language without mentioning them.Yancy Smith

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 18:34:17 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Who says that “Paul” didn’t consider Epimenides to be a “biblical” prophet (or equivalent)?  He (whoever he may have been — certainly not Paul) simply calls him a prophet.  Nor, as B. Harris notes need he be directly quoting Epimenides (though I think he was).  I happen to have read Tennyson, but if I were to sayHalf a league, half a league,Half a league onward,need I be directly referencing the “Charge of the Light Brigade” or might I simply be using it to urge someone to proceed? georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Wed, December 9, 2009 4:19:41 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13George said:>Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? …Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character.B.Harris asked:Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)[Yancy Smith] I think it is important that we recognize that Paul does not need to say what he assumes his audience already knows. Our problem is that we don’t come to the text with the same assumptions. Here I adapt and cite Towner. You really need to get hold of his commentary. If we assume for a moment that “the prophet” in view is Epimenides, Paul does not consider him a biblical prophet, but rather in the way that Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient writers tended to think of “prophets” — as a teachers, philosophers, and even (according to some accounts) workers of miracles. “Prophet” would then be a title of honor that attached itself to various historical (and legendary) figures known to have been great teachers and poets. Epimenides is clearly associated with Crete as a priest and prophet. Depending on who is read (Plato or Aristotle), he can be dated to the fifth or sixth century B.C.E. The Christian-era writers Clement of Alexandria and Jerome linked the saying to him. Other early Christian writers, however, attribute the saying to Callimachus (third century B.C.E.), whose Hymn to Zeus (line 8) contains the first phrase of the saying.  As Paul cites it, the saying was recognized as from a specific Cretan prophet, whoever it was. There is a reference to Callimachus’ teaching in the language of Titus 1:2; that Callimachus also cites the “Cretans are always liars” jibe, whoever Paul has in mind as the prophet, only shows that Paul has at his disposal the necessary traditions to construct, through allusion and citation, a virtual collage of criticisms leveled against Cretan culture by some fairly authoritative figures.”The saying itself divides into three parts, and allows Paul to address the way the opponents speak and behave. Part one, “Cretans are always liars,” is found verbatim in Callimachus (Hymn to Zeus [line 8]; the earliest extant source to preserve the line), who also supplies the reason for this long-standing opinion of Cretan deceitfulness. ‡ This reputation for deceitfulness was, as noted above, widespread and quite possibly linked in a seminal way with the fundamental Cretan religious claim to have the tomb of Zeus on Crete. This in effect reduced the stature of Zeus to that of a human being-become-hero. Behind this Cretan perspective, and the response to it, were opposing “theologies”: Crete’s was a “theology from below,” which maintained that the Greek gods were first men and women. This apparently grew out of the fundamental Cretan belief in its own race as the primal Greek race that emerged from the earth. Cretan beliefs included the view that many of the Greek gods were born on Crete; Zeus also died there. The opposing “theology from above” was the Olympian theology from mainland Greece in which, among other differences, the transcendent status of the gods was protected and the distance between the divine and the human races maintained. Thus the basis of the stereotype was a heretical religious claim.”[Yancy Smith] So, George is right that the text does not directly mention Zeus. But then we often allude to things in natural language without mentioning them.Yancy Smith— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Wed Dec 9 19:27:11 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:> > > Dear Yancy –> > Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)> > B.Harris> > Of course, it is to be taken something of exclamation. My initialquestion was “When I take it as an interrogative (a rhetoric questionwhich has an implicit answer), is it allowed in Greek grammar-syntax?”The reason I have brought this topic is that, not much ofunderstanding the quotation, its background, and Paul’s taking it, butrather a difficulty of connecting vv. 12-13a to the subsequent v. 13b. (I don’t have any commentaries to shed light on this verse.)So far, the following is my reading and understanding of the text:1:12A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own [Cretan] prophets, said,<[We] Cretans are always liars;wild beasts, lazy bellies.>1:13In such testimonial coming from out of their own mouthdon’t we hear something of a true saying?![The words in bracket are mine.]These verses do not seem function to focus on the character of Cretansper se, but function as an opening for the admonition against theJudaizers, which follows in vv. 13b-14:The Cretan prophet himself does honestly say they can lie, “we Cretansare always liars”. (Here, reading it as ‘we Cretans’, not just’Cretans’, do make the nuance of the text clear.) Then, be it knownthat the Judaizers do likewise lie. So, rebuke them; don’t payattention to them, etc.Oun Kwon.

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 23:17:42 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 I don’t think it is likely that 13a is a question. It is more likely an exclamation. If it were a question, wouln’t need some sort of signal disjunction like DE? I would imagine that 12 is a jibe at the the Cretans, undermining the bad guy, contrarian image typically displayed toward some foreigners. “Paul” also sees his Cretans as vulnerable to other types of Jewish teachers like himself. To many the difference between a Christian Jewish teacher and a non-Christian Jewish teacher would have been minimal indeed.YancySent from my iPhoneOn Dec 9, 2009, at 6:27 PM, Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com> wrote:> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Blue Meeksbay > <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> >> Dear Yancy –>> >> Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH >> ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing >> that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried >> in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So >> that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This >> testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)>> >> B.Harris>> >> > > Of course, it is to be taken something of exclamation. My initial> question was “When I take it as an interrogative (a rhetoric question> which has an implicit answer), is it allowed in Greek grammar-syntax?”> > The reason I have brought this topic is that, not much of> understanding the quotation, its background, and Paul’s taking it, but> rather a difficulty of connecting vv. 12-13a to the subsequent v. 13b.> (I don’t have any commentaries to shed light on this verse.)> > So far, the following is my reading and understanding of the text:> > 1:12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own [Cretan] > prophets, said,> <[We] Cretans are always liars;> wild beasts, lazy bellies.>> 1:13 In such testimonial coming from out of their own mouth> don’t we hear something of a true saying?!> > [The words in bracket are mine.]> > These verses do not seem function to focus on the character of Cretans> per se, but function as an opening for the admonition against the> Judaizers, which follows in vv. 13b-14:> > The Cretan prophet himself does honestly say they can lie, “we Cretans> are always liars”. (Here, reading it as ‘we Cretans’, not just> ‘Cretans’, do make the nuance of the text clear.) Then, be it known> that the Judaizers do likewise lie. So, rebuke them; don’t pay> attention to them, etc.> > Oun Kwon.> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 23:21:14 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Epimenides only survives in Fragmentary quotes. But the line is also present in Callimachus.Sent from my iPhoneYancyOn Dec 9, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:> That is a good point! I have never seen a text of Epimenides. Are we > really sure this was a saying of his? However, if it was, since Paul > was somehow familiar with it, would it not intimate Paul knew what > the saying was about? However, now that I think of it, perhaps this > saying was simply being repeated by those indicated in verse 10, and > thus was not even connected to the original saying of Epimenides, > which, if true, might justify your point. It seems such a thing is > done all the time, where a popular saying is so divorced from the > original source, that people do not even know the source, and so > would not know its context. (Although, I cannot think of an example > right now!)> > B.Harris> > > “The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel> > > > > ________________________________> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>> To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:31:25 PM> Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> > > Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage?> george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > > > ________________________________> From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 3:24:57 PM> Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> > > Why would the one necessarily negate the other?> > B.Harris> > > “The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel> > > ________________________________> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>> To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; > “yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net” <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:07:03 PM> Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> > > Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t > enter into the picture. He is concerned solely with the character > of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly > depicted their character.> george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > > > ________________________________> From: Bl

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 23:29:25 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Since the quote is from a known Cretan “PROFHTHS” (with a similar social location to the PRFHTHS in the Euthyphro), is there any necesity to refer the quote to some “biblical” sense?YancySent from my iPhoneOn Dec 9, 2009, at 5:34 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:> Who says that “Paul” didn’t consider Epimenides to be a “biblical” > prophet (or equivalent)? He (whoever he may have been — certainly > not Paul) simply calls him a prophet. Nor, as B. Harris notes need > he be directly quoting Epimenides (though I think he was). I happen > to have read Tennyson, but if I were to say> > Half a league, half a league,> Half a league onward,> > need I be directly referencing the “Charge of the Light Brigade” or > might I simply be using it to urge someone to proceed?> > george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>> To: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 4:19:41 PM> Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> > George said:> >Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? …> Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t > enter into the picture. He is concerned solely with the character > of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly > depicted their character.> > B.Harris asked:> > Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH > ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing > that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in > Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So > that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony > is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)> > > [Yancy Smith]> I think it is important that we recognize that Paul does not need to > say what he assumes his audience already knows. Our problem is that > we don’t come to the text with the same assumptions. Here I adapt > and cite Towner. You really need to get hold of his commentary. If > we assume for a moment that “the prophet” in view is Epimenides, > Paul does not consider him a biblical prophet, but rather in the way > that Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient writers tended to think of > “prophets” — as a teachers, philosophers, and even (according to so > me accounts) workers of miracles. “Prophet” would then be a title > of honor that attached itself to various historical (and legendary) > figures known to have been great teachers and poets. Epimenides is c > learly associated with Crete as a priest and prophet. Depending on w > ho is read (Plato or Aristotle), he can be dated to the fifth or six > th century B.C.E. The Christian-era writers Clement of Alexandria an > d Jerome linked the saying to him. Other early Christian writers, ho > wever, attribute the saying to Callimachus (third century B.C.E.), w > hose Hymn to Zeus (line 8) contains the first phrase of the saying.> > As Paul cites it, the saying was recognized as from a specific > Cretan prophet, whoever it was. There is a reference to Callimachus’ > teaching in the language of Titus 1:2; that Callimachus also cites > the “Cretans are always liars” jibe, whoever Paul has in mind as > the prophet, only shows that Paul has at his disposal the necessary > traditions to construct, through allusion and citation, a virtual co > llage of criticisms leveled against Cretan culture by some fairly au > thoritative figures.> > “The saying itself divides into three parts, and allows Paul to > address the way the opponents speak and behave. Part one, “Cretans a > re always liars,” is found verbatim in Callimachus (Hymn to Zeus [li > ne 8]; the earliest extant source to preserve the line), who also su > pplies the reason for this long-standing opinion of Cretan deceitful > ness. ‡ This reputation for deceitfulness was, as noted above, wides > pread and quite possibly linked in a seminal way with the fundamenta > l Cretan religious claim to have the tomb of Zeus on Crete. This in > effect reduced the stature of Zeus to that of a human being-become-h > ero. Behind this Cretan perspective, and the response to it, were op > posing “theologies”: Crete’s was a “theology from below,” > which maintained that the Greek gods were first men and women. This > apparently grew out of the fundamental Cretan belief in its own race > as the primal Greek race that emerged from the earth. Cretan belief > s included the view that many of the Greek gods were born on Crete; > Zeus also died there. The opposing “theology from above” was the > Olympian theology from mainland Greece in which, among other differe > nces, the transcendent status of the gods was protected and the dist > ance between the divine and the human races maintained. Thus the bas > is of the stereotype was a heretical religious claim.”> > [Yancy Smith] So, George is right that the text does not directly > mention Zeus. But then we often allude to things in natural language > without mentioning them.> > Yancy Smith> > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Wed Dec 9 23:39:41 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel wrote:> I happen to have read Tennyson, but if I were to say> > Half a league, half a league,> Half a league onward,> > need I be directly referencing the “Charge of the Light Brigade” or > might I simply be using it to urge someone to proceed?> Quite right, but one needs to ask, in what connection were Cretans famous for their lies?Second, what sort of back reference is v 12 to v. 2? Why bring up at all hO APSEUDHS QEOS, which is quite odd?> From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>> To: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 4:19:41 PM> Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> > George said:> >Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? …> Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t > enter into the picture. He is concerned solely with the character > of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly > depicted their character.> > B.Harris asked:> > Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH > ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing > that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in > Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So > that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony > is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)> > > [Yancy Smith]> I think it is important that we recognize that Paul does not need to > say what he assumes his audience already knows. Our problem is that > we don’t come to the text with the same assumptions. Here I adapt > and cite Towner. You really need to get hold of his commentary. If > we assume for a moment that “the prophet” in view is Epimenides, > Paul does not consider him a biblical prophet, but rather in the way > that Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient writers tended to think of > “prophets” — as a teachers, philosophers, and even (according to so > me accounts) workers of miracles. “Prophet” would then be a title > of honor that attached itself to various historical (and legendary) > figures known to have been great teachers and poets. Epimenides is c > learly associated with Crete as a priest and prophet. Depending on w > ho is read (Plato or Aristotle), he can be dated to the fifth or six > th century B.C.E. The Christian-era writers Clement of Alexandria an > d Jerome linked the saying to him. Other early Christian writers, ho > wever, attribute the saying to Callimachus (third century B.C.E.), w > hose Hymn to Zeus (line 8) contains the first phrase of the saying.> > As Paul cites it, the saying was recognized as from a specific > Cretan prophet, whoever it was. There is a reference to Callimachus’ > teaching in the language of Titus 1:2; that Callimachus also cites > the “Cretans are always liars” jibe, whoever Paul has in mind as > the prophet, only shows that Paul has at his disposal the necessary > traditions to construct, through allusion and citation, a virtual co > llage of criticisms leveled against Cretan culture by some fairly au > thoritative figures.> > “The saying itself divides into three parts, and allows Paul to > address the way the opponents speak and behave. Part one, “Cretans a > re always liars,” is found verbatim in Callimachus (Hymn to Zeus [li > ne 8]; the earliest extant source to preserve the line), who also su > pplies the reason for this long-standing opinion of Cretan deceitful > ness. ‡ This reputation for deceitfulness was, as noted above, wides > pread and quite possibly linked in a seminal way with the fundamenta > l Cretan religious claim to have the tomb of Zeus on Crete. This in > effect reduced the stature of Zeus to that of a human being-become-h > ero. Behind this Cretan perspective, and the response to it, were op > posing “theologies”: Crete’s was a “theology from below,” > which maintained that the Greek gods were first men and women. This > apparently grew out of the fundamental Cretan belief in its own race > as the primal Greek race that emerged from the earth. Cretan belief > s included the view that many of the Greek gods were born on Crete; > Zeus also died there. The opposing “theology from above” was the > Olympian theology from mainland Greece in which, among other differe > nces, the transcendent status of the gods was protected and the dist > ance between the divine and the human races maintained. Thus the bas > is of the stereotype was a heretical religious claim.”> > [Yancy Smith] So, George is right that the text does not directly > mention Zeus. But then we often allude to things in natural language > without mentioning them.> > Yancy Smith> > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13

[] Titus 1:12-13 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 23:58:21 EST 2009

 

[] Titus 1:12-13 [] Titus 1:12-13 Why a contrast of the ἀψευδὴς θεὸς AYEUDHS QEOS with Cretans who are ψεῦσται YEUSTAI ?  18 And Balaam took up his discourse, and said,“Rise, Balak, and hear;hearken to me, O son of Zippor:19 God is not man, that he should lie,or a son of man, that he should repent.Has he said, and will he not do it?Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?20 Behold, I received a command to bless:he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.21 He has not beheld misfortune in Jacob;nor has he seen trouble in Israel.The Lordtheir God is with them,and the shout of a king is among them.22 God brings them out of Egypt;they have as it were the horns of the wild ox.23 For there is no enchantment against Jacob,no divination against Israel;now it shall be said of Jacob and Israel,‘What has God wrought!’24 Behold, a people! As a lioness it rises upand as a lion it lifts itself;it does not lie down till it devours the prey,and drinks the blood of the slain.”The Revised Standard Version. 1971 (Nu 23:18). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Yancy W Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Cc: ” at lists.ibiblio.org” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 9:39:41 PMSubject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13George F Somsel wrote: I happen to have read Tennyson, but if I were to say> >Half a league, half a league,>Half a league onward,> >need I be directly referencing the “Charge of the Light Brigade” or might I simply be using it to urge someone to proceed?> Quite right, but one needs to ask, in what connection were Cretans famous for their lies?  Second, what sort of back reference is v 12 to v. 2? Why bring up at all hO APSEUDHS QEOS, which is quite odd? From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>>To: at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 4:19:41 PM>Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:12-13> >George said:>>Do you find any mention of Zeus in the passage? …>Whether or not “Paul” believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn’t enter into the picture.  He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character.> >B.Harris asked:> >Are you saying then, that Paul’s affirmation  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real?  So that, in English it would be better to translate it, “This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)> > >[Yancy Smith] >I think it is important that we recognize that Paul does not need to say what he assumes his audience already knows. Our problem is that we don’t come to the text with the same assumptions. Here I adapt and cite Towner. You really need to get hold of his commentary. If we assume for a moment that “the prophet” in view is Epimenides, Paul does not consider him a biblical prophet, but rather in the way that Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient writers tended to think of “prophets” — as a teachers, philosophers, and even (according to some accounts) workers of miracles. “Prophet” would then be a title of honor that attached itself to various historical (and legendary) figures known to have been great teachers and poets. Epimenides is clearly associated with Crete as a priest and prophet. Depending on who is read (Plato or Aristotle), he can be dated to the fifth or sixth century B.C.E. The Christian-era writers Clement of Alexandria and Jerome linked the saying to him. Other early Christian writers, however, attribute the saying to Callimachus (third century B.C.E.), whose Hymn to Zeus (line 8) contains the first phrase of the saying.  > >As Paul cites it, the saying was recognized as from a specific Cretan prophet, whoever it was. There is a reference to Callimachus’ teaching in the language of Titus 1:2; that Callimachus also cites the “Cretans are always liars” jibe, whoever Paul has in mind as the prophet, only shows that Paul has at his disposal the necessary traditions to construct, through allusion and citation, a virtual collage of criticisms leveled against Cretan culture by some fairly authoritative figures.> >“The saying itself divides into three parts, and allows Paul to address the way the opponents speak and behave. Part one, “Cretans are always liars,” is found verbatim in Callimachus (Hymn to Zeus [line 8]; the earliest extant source to preserve the line), who also supplies the reason for this long-standing opinion of Cretan deceitfulness. ‡ This reputation for deceitfulness was, as noted above, widespread and quite possibly linked in a seminal way with the fundamental Cretan religious claim to have the tomb of Zeus on Crete. This in effect reduced the stature of Zeus to that of a human being-become-hero. Behind this Cretan perspective, and the response to it, were opposing “theologies”: Crete’s was a “theology from below,” which maintained that the Greek gods were first men and women. This apparently grew out of the fundamental Cretan belief in its own race as the primal Greek race that emerged from the earth. Cretan beliefs included the view that many of the Greek gods were born on Crete; Zeus also died there. The opposing “theology from above” was the Olympian theology from mainland Greece in which, among other differences, the transcendent status of the gods was protected and the distance between the divine and the human races maintained. Thus the basis of the stereotype was a heretical religious claim.”> >[Yancy Smith] So, George is right that the text does not directly mention Zeus. But then we often allude to things in natural language without mentioning them.> >Yancy Smith> > >—> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> >

 

[] Titus 1:12-13[] Titus 1:12-13
[bible passage=”Titus 1:12″]

To anyone with some classical Greek:
I’m trying to find a resource for the line quoted by Paul in Titus 1:12
which reads:

EIPEN TIS EC AUTOWN IDIOS AUTOWN PROFHTHS
“KRHTES AEI PSEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI”

I’ve searched the archives and a number of online resources
without
satisfying results. I’ve been led to think that it’s written by
Callimachus in the ‘Hymn to Zeus’ but I haven’t been able to verify it.
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance.

Mike Watson
NT Greek
Biblion College
Silverton, Oregon