[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Rbsads at aol.com Rbsads at aol.com
Sat May 24 20:02:38 EDT 2003
[] ORQOTOMEW [] abide in Jn 15:9-11 This is a hard question for me to express, and so patience is requested.When a word such as MENW is understood as meaning “abide” rather than simply as “stay” or “remain,” is that word being understood in one of its Koine Greek nuances, is it receiving a special nuance by the early Christian writers, or is it receiving a special nuance by later Christian hermeneutics influencing translation?This is of course a huge question. I suppose I am asking first for comments on the use of MENW in John 15. Second, and perhaps, more importantly are there resources for a beginning GNT reader to discern how any particular word has changed from standard Koine usage for the purposes of the early Christian writers.Thanks,Richard SmithChattanooga, TN
[] ORQOTOMEW[] abide in Jn 15:9-11
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat May 24 21:49:16 EDT 2003
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 [] abide in Jn 15:9-11 At 8:02 PM -0400 5/24/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:>This is a hard question for me to express, and so patience is requested.> >When a word such as MENW is understood as meaning “abide” rather than simply>as “stay” or “remain,” is that word being understood in one of its Koine Greek>nuances, is it receiving a special nuance by the early Christian writers, or>is it receiving a special nuance by later Christian hermeneutics influencing>translation?> >This is of course a huge question. I suppose I am asking first for comments>on the use of MENW in John 15. Second, and perhaps, more importantly are there>resources for a beginning GNT reader to discern how any particular word has>changed from standard Koine usage for the purposes of the early Christian>writers.In fact MENW is a word of key interest in John’s gospel and you would dowell to look carefully at every instance of Johannine usage of the verb (asalso of its nominal cognate MONH (“in my father’s house are many MONAI).The information about early Christian usage is something you should belooking at BDAG for. But in John’s gospel MENW is a word of majorimportance; although I no longer have a copy of Raymond Brown’s commentary,my recollection is that there is an account of Johannine usage of MENW inone of the appendixes where he deals with Johannine verbs.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11[] abide in Jn 15:9-11
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Ron Fay roncfay at hotmail.com
Mon May 26 08:18:34 EDT 2003
Thread closed: [] Matthew 16.18 [] Syntax Lists for Students of New Testament Greek For that matter, and all authorial issues aside, I would also recommend looking at the usage in I John. When I took my class through the book, I specificially asked them to note their own translation of MENW, and every single person in my class of 22 translated it at least 1 time as “remain” and at least 1 time as “abide.”I found that interesting, especially since I found myself forced to translate it with the change as well.- Ron Fay________________________________________________Ron FayPh. D. student and New Testament FellowTrinity Evangelical Divinity SchoolDeerfield, IL.roncfay at hotmail.com_________________________________________________________________Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Thread closed: [] Matthew 16.18[] Syntax Lists for Students of New Testament Greek
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Pastor Mark Eddy markeddy at adams.net
Mon May 26 12:05:42 EDT 2003
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 [] abide in Jn 15:9-11 To add a bit to Dr. Conrad’s answer, it seems that your question applies not so much to the Greek wordMENW but to the English translation of it. In English the verb “abide” naturally goes with the noun”abode” or “a dwelling place” (as in John 14). In John 15 the picture is of the relationship between avine and its branches. We do not speak of branches abiding or dwelling in a vine. Instead we say thatbranches “stay” conncected to a vine or that they “remain” attached to the vine.The English term “abide” would seem to fit better in the context of Luke 24:29, where the Emmaus disciplesask Jesus “abide with us,” because they want Him to stay overnight in their house, or abode. This storyled to the famous hymn “Abide with me,” so the the KJV terminology has become beloved by many in theEnglish speaking world. But today most of us would ask a guest “stay with us” rather than “abide with us,”if we wanted the guest to spend the night at our house. The choice of English translation “abide” or”stay” or “remain” is more a matter of English taste than a difference in the meaning of the Greek wordMENW.Mark Eddy—– Original Message —– From: “Carl W. Conrad” <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>> At 8:02 PM -0400 5/24/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:> >When a word such as MENW is understood as meaning “abide” rather than simply> >as “stay” or “remain,” is that word being understood in one of its Koine Greek> >nuances, is it receiving a special nuance by the early Christian writers, or> >is it receiving a special nuance by later Christian hermeneutics influencing> >translation?> >> >This is of course a huge question. I suppose I am asking first for comments> >on the use of MENW in John 15. Second, and perhaps, more importantly are there> >resources for a beginning GNT reader to discern how any particular word has> >changed from standard Koine usage for the purposes of the early Christian> >writers.> > In fact MENW is a word of key interest in John’s gospel and you would do> well to look carefully at every instance of Johannine usage of the verb (as> also of its nominal cognate MONH (“in my father’s house are many MONAI).> The information about early Christian usage is something you should be> looking at BDAG for. But in John’s gospel MENW is a word of major> importance; although I no longer have a copy of Raymond Brown’s commentary,> my recollection is that there is an account of Johannine usage of MENW in> one of the appendixes where he deals with Johannine verbs.> > Carl W. Conrad
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[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Colin Thompson colin at cthompson.org.uk
Mon May 26 16:47:54 EDT 2003
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 [] AP ARTI OPSESTHE (Mat. 26:64) Hi Richard,I am only just leaning Greek (modern, spoken, 9 months) and rely heavily onthe Oxford classical greek dictionary. However, in reading the Nestle textthe language flows as naturally as any modern language, and the verb MENWwith various appended – enlarged forms is used in the same contexts as inmodern Greek. As you would expect, such a common word/meaning is usedeverwhere, and with various connotations, just as in English.I started reading the Interlinear Nestle text in 1983 with the help of JBSmith’s Greek – English Concordance, ISBN 0 86065 003 0, KingswayPublications Ltd.I can’t help thinking that to try to arrive at a definitive sense ofparticular words in a text without having an overall appreciation of thesubject of the text must be prone to misconception, guesswork, subjectivityand eventually error.I find it helps to bear in mind that the text of the New Testament isconcerning ‘that which we have seen and handled’; ‘the things mostcertainly known.’When you abide, remain, lodge, in Christ, then to read it means somethingthat you identify with.For those who don’t have the experience, there may never be a convincingexplanation.All the best Colin Thompson, Gateshead, England.http://www.cthompson.org.uk/colin.html ——-Original Message——- From: Rbsads at aol.comDate: Sunday, May 25, 2003 00:52:44To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: [] abide in Jn 15:9-11 This is a hard question for me to express, and so patience is requested. When a word such as MENW is understood as meaning “abide” rather than simplyas “stay” or “remain,” is that word being understood in one of its KoineGreeknuances, is it receiving a special nuance by the early Christian writers, oris it receiving a special nuance by later Christian hermeneutics influencingtranslation? This is of course a huge question. I suppose I am asking first for commentson the use of MENW in John 15. Second, and perhaps, more importantly arethereresources for a beginning GNT reader to discern how any particular word haschanged from standard Koine usage for the purposes of the early Christianwriters. Thanks, Richard SmithChattanooga, TN— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ .
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11[] AP ARTI OPSESTHE (Mat. 26:64)
[] abide in Jn 15:9-11 Rbsads at aol.com Rbsads at aol.com
Tue May 27 18:50:17 EDT 2003
[] Latin/LXX transl. [] Philo Mark Eddy wrote: “To add a bit to Dr. Conrad’s answer, it seems that your question applies not so much to the Greek word MENW but to the English translation of it.”I am very surprised and please with the responses to this question about the translation of MENW, on list and off list.Ultimately, I am not questioning the translation, but am wondering about new meaning the Christian writers added to words such as MENW and others such as CARIS in using them to express new Christian ideas.I am certain that this pursuit is not appropriate for BGreek.I have begun a brief study on MENW and MONH in John, as suggested by Carl.The specific question with MENW was whether “abide” was preferred in context over “remain,” because of different English connotations in “abide” from “remain.”Whether it would be better to translate “remain” and to consider its expanded nuance in this Christian context, or to translate it as a completely different word, with related but different meaning, as “abide.”The connotations seem to differ in force from “dwelling as if one belonged” versus “not leaving as if a welcomed guest might stay indefinitely.”Remain implies some decision to stay. Abide implies some sense of home that one cannot truly ever leave.My present resolution is that, given the cognate noun MONH, MENW can be taken to mean “abide” as an intentional and distinct Greek meaning, rather than as a new use of the word by the evangelist, or as a translator’s interpretation. (My English ability is inadequate to express my intended meaning in describing the difference between the Greek meaning, the writer’s use of Greek in expressing new Christian meaning, and the translator’s use of English to express his interpretation of the Greek.)Something like determining if LAMBANW means receive or take. The matter then turns on whether the reader considers in the specific context that MENW means “stay/remain” or “abide/dwell.”And I think the passages meaning changes depending on which way MENW is read.This understanding of MENW is a change from my thoughts when I first asked the question.Again, thanks to all.Richard SmithChattanooga, TN(And Brian, you are right. Your off list response is more than I bargained for. But I look forward to reading your paper. Thanks)
[] Latin/LXX transl.[] Philo