[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 12:14:45 EST 2003
[] EPI TO AUTO [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order On 25 Dec 2003 at 16:40:52 -0800, Michael Tarver wrotein connection with Rev 9:14,>When we have a verb right next to a prep. that >affords us natural syntax this should be taken.I happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have some questions.TA GAR PANTA DI’ hUMAS, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASASADIA TWN PLEINWN THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHiEIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU.1. Michael, in the case of Rev 9:14, your rule was applied to a fairlyextreme case. Do you see it applying equally here? What do othersthink?2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can beeither transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one*really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!Carl disussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 EST,and suggested the following translation >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?At least six distinct constructions seem possible; can word order helpus decide which is (are) most natural?1. PLEONAZW intransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN THN EUCARISTIAN governing PERISSEUW: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abudnant may, on account of thethanksgiving of the majority / many persons, abound towardthe glory of God’.2. PLEONAZWintransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN THN EUCARISTIAN governing PLEONAZW: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abundant on account of thethanksgiving of the majority, may abound ….’Granted, these two are little different in sense. To continue …3. PLEONAZW transitive, PERISSEUW intransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PLEONAZW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving through the agency of the majority, mayabound …’.4. PLEONAZW transitive, PERISSEUW intransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PERISSEUW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving, may abound through the agency of themajority …’.5. PLEONAZW intransitive, PERISSEUW transitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PLEONAZW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased through the agency of the majority, may causethanksgiving to abound …’.6. PLEONAZW intransitive, PERISSEUW transitive, DIATWN POLLWN governing PERISSEUW: ‘So that grace,having become more abundant, may cause thanksgivingto abound through the agency of the majority …’.Seasons greeitngs!Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] EPI TO AUTO[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 12:14:45 EST 2003
[] EPI TO AUTO [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order On 25 Dec 2003 at 16:40:52 -0800, Michael Tarver wrotein connection with Rev 9:14,>When we have a verb right next to a prep. that >affords us natural syntax this should be taken.I happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have some questions.TA GAR PANTA DI’ hUMAS, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASASADIA TWN PLEINWN THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHiEIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU.1. Michael, in the case of Rev 9:14, your rule was applied to a fairlyextreme case. Do you see it applying equally here? What do othersthink?2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can beeither transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one*really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!Carl disussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 EST,and suggested the following translation >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?At least six distinct constructions seem possible; can word order helpus decide which is (are) most natural?1. PLEONAZW intransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN THN EUCARISTIAN governing PERISSEUW: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abudnant may, on account of thethanksgiving of the majority / many persons, abound towardthe glory of God’.2. PLEONAZWintransitive: PERISSEUWintransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN THN EUCARISTIAN governing PLEONAZW: ‘Sothat grace, having become more abundant on account of thethanksgiving of the majority, may abound ….’Granted, these two are little different in sense. To continue …3. PLEONAZW transitive, PERISSEUW intransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PLEONAZW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving through the agency of the majority, mayabound …’.4. PLEONAZW transitive, PERISSEUW intransitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PERISSEUW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased the thanksgiving, may abound through the agency of themajority …’.5. PLEONAZW intransitive, PERISSEUW transitive, DIA TWNPOLLWN governing PLEONAZW: ‘So that grace, havingincreased through the agency of the majority, may causethanksgiving to abound …’.6. PLEONAZW intransitive, PERISSEUW transitive, DIATWN POLLWN governing PERISSEUW: ‘So that grace,having become more abundant, may cause thanksgivingto abound through the agency of the majority …’.Seasons greeitngs!Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] EPI TO AUTO[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 16:15:53 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order I just wrote: >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?I meant, of course,I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 16:15:53 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order I just wrote: >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?I meant, of course,I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would morenaturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?Paul ToselandBristol, England
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Ann Nyland accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Sat Dec 27 16:44:48 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundredyears before Paul’s time.Ann Nyland—– Original Message —–From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;<cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 AMSubject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> I just wrote:> > >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?> > I meant, of course,> > I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?> > Paul Toseland> Bristol, England> > > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 20:42:02 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] Prepositions Thank you, Ann. Perhaps then, if Paul had intended DIA to be construed with THN EUCARISTIANhe might have written DIA THN EUCARISTIAN TOU PLEIONWN? What bothers me is that, inthe absence of contextual indicators to the contrary, it seems perfectly natural in 2 Cor 4:15 to take DIAwith TWN PLEIONWN , and assume that THN EUCARISTIAN is the direct object of PERISSEUHi.Why not make clear that DIA is to be construed with THN EUCARISTIAN, if that is what is intended?Isn’t it most natural to take DIA with a possible object that immediately follows? I guess it depends howa sentence is processed by the mind; anyone out there into cognitive grammar?Paul ToselandAnn Nyland wrote:>No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundred>years before Paul’s time.> >Ann Nyland> >—– Original Message —–>From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;><cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 AM>Subject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> > > > >>I just wrote:>> >> >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>> >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?>> >>I meant, of course,>> >>I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>>naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?>> >>Paul Toseland>>Bristol, England>> >> >> >> >>—>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >> > > > >
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] Prepositions
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Ann Nyland accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Sat Dec 27 16:44:48 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundredyears before Paul’s time.Ann Nyland—– Original Message —–From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;<cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 AMSubject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> I just wrote:> > >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?> > I meant, of course,> > I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?> > Paul Toseland> Bristol, England> > > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Dec 27 20:42:02 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] Prepositions Thank you, Ann. Perhaps then, if Paul had intended DIA to be construed with THN EUCARISTIANhe might have written DIA THN EUCARISTIAN TOU PLEIONWN? What bothers me is that, inthe absence of contextual indicators to the contrary, it seems perfectly natural in 2 Cor 4:15 to take DIAwith TWN PLEIONWN , and assume that THN EUCARISTIAN is the direct object of PERISSEUHi.Why not make clear that DIA is to be construed with THN EUCARISTIAN, if that is what is intended?Isn’t it most natural to take DIA with a possible object that immediately follows? I guess it depends howa sentence is processed by the mind; anyone out there into cognitive grammar?Paul ToselandAnn Nyland wrote:>No, that’s a screamingly classical Greek word order, natural a few hundred>years before Paul’s time.> >Ann Nyland> >—– Original Message —–>From: “Paul Toseland” <toseland at blueyonder.co.uk>>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>; <mrt at hisurfer.net>;><cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>>Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:15 AM>Subject: [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order> > > > >>I just wrote:>> >> >I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>> >naturally have said ‘DIA THN TOU PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?>> >>I meant, of course,>> >>I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more>>naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?>> >>Paul Toseland>>Bristol, England>> >> >> >> >>—>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >> > > > >
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] Prepositions
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Dec 28 10:53:29 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [Paul T.]> I happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have somequestions.> > TA GAR PANTA DI’ hUMAS, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASASA> DIA TWN PLEIONWN THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi> EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU.> > 2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can be> either transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one> *really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!> > Carl discussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 EST,> and suggested the following translation> > >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the> >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”> > I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?May I suggest an alternative analysis?First, I would say that grammatically the DIA phrase could be connectedeither to the dependent participial clause hH CARIS PLEONASASA or the mainclause THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU. Carl appears tohave taken it with the main clause, but all the translations I have checked,have connected it to the preceding participial clause. I think it fits thebroader context better to take it with the participial clause, because Paulis talking about his ministry of preaching to many people about theforgiveness of sins and the grace of God. As more and more people experiencethe grace of God, they also give thanks to God.What about translating it “so that, grace having increased through theincreasing number of people (who have been forgiven), it has multiplied thethanksgiving toward the glory of God.”This analysis keeps the balanced structure:N V PP – hH CARIS PLEONASASA DIA TWN PLEIONWNN V PP – THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOUIt does require an explanation of how grace increases through an increasingnumber of people. It may help to look at other uses of PLEONAZW by Paul.Rom 5:20 NOMOS DE PAREISHLQHN, hINA PLEONASHi TO PARAPTWMABut the law came along with the result that transgression increasedhOU DE EPLEONASEN hH hAMARTIA, hUPEREPERISSEUSEN hH CARISBut when (the) sin increased, (the) grace abounded beyond measureAbounding grace is not realized until people are forgiven. The more peoplewho ask forgiveness, the more grace is experienced, and the morethanksgiving results.Rom 6:1 EPIMENWMEN THi hAMARTIAi, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASHiShould we remain in (the) sin, so that (the) grace can abound?Again, I see the implied event of forgiveness before grace can abound,because sin that is not repented of and forgiven, results in the experienceof judgment, not grace.Finally, a few English translations:NET: so that the grace that is including more and more people may causethanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.RSV: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increasethanksgiving, to the glory of God.REB: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greatermay be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.TEV: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to theglory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.NIV: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may causethanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.Iver Larsen
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sun Dec 28 16:09:10 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver kindly listed the following versions of the hINA clause of 2 Cor 4:15>NET: so that the grace that is including more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.>RSV: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase>thanksgiving, to the glory of God.>REB: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greater>may be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.>TEV: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to the>glory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.>NIV: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.> > All these versions seem to assume that the aorist participle PLEONASASA describes anongoing process, the extension of grace to more and more people. This process isportrayed as co-ordinated with another process, thanksgiving abounding to God’s glroy,which is described by the present subjunctive PERISSEUSHi. This seems very odd to me.Surely the perfective aspect of the aorist requires something like ‘so that grace, havingbecome abundant …’? Or am I missing something?Paul Toseland
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Dec 28 10:53:29 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [Paul T.]> I happened to be chewing over 2 Cor 4:15, and have somequestions.> > TA GAR PANTA DI’ hUMAS, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASASA> DIA TWN PLEIONWN THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi> EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU.> > 2. The hINA clause is exegetically difficult, because both verbs can be> either transitive or intransitive. It is one of those texts that make one> *really* wish the ancients had used punctuation!> > Carl discussed this verse in a post on Nov 25 1998 at 12:56:34 EST,> and suggested the following translation> > >”so that grace, having become more abundant because of the> >thanksgiving of many persons, may abound toward the glory of God.”> > I just wonder whether, if Paul had intended this, he would more> naturally have said ‘DIA THN TWN PLEIONWN EUCARISTIAN’?May I suggest an alternative analysis?First, I would say that grammatically the DIA phrase could be connectedeither to the dependent participial clause hH CARIS PLEONASASA or the mainclause THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOU. Carl appears tohave taken it with the main clause, but all the translations I have checked,have connected it to the preceding participial clause. I think it fits thebroader context better to take it with the participial clause, because Paulis talking about his ministry of preaching to many people about theforgiveness of sins and the grace of God. As more and more people experiencethe grace of God, they also give thanks to God.What about translating it “so that, grace having increased through theincreasing number of people (who have been forgiven), it has multiplied thethanksgiving toward the glory of God.”This analysis keeps the balanced structure:N V PP – hH CARIS PLEONASASA DIA TWN PLEIONWNN V PP – THN EUCARISTIAN PERISSEUSHi EIS THN DOCAN TOU QEOUIt does require an explanation of how grace increases through an increasingnumber of people. It may help to look at other uses of PLEONAZW by Paul.Rom 5:20 NOMOS DE PAREISHLQHN, hINA PLEONASHi TO PARAPTWMABut the law came along with the result that transgression increasedhOU DE EPLEONASEN hH hAMARTIA, hUPEREPERISSEUSEN hH CARISBut when (the) sin increased, (the) grace abounded beyond measureAbounding grace is not realized until people are forgiven. The more peoplewho ask forgiveness, the more grace is experienced, and the morethanksgiving results.Rom 6:1 EPIMENWMEN THi hAMARTIAi, hINA hH CARIS PLEONASHiShould we remain in (the) sin, so that (the) grace can abound?Again, I see the implied event of forgiveness before grace can abound,because sin that is not repented of and forgiven, results in the experienceof judgment, not grace.Finally, a few English translations:NET: so that the grace that is including more and more people may causethanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.RSV: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increasethanksgiving, to the glory of God.REB: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greatermay be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.TEV: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to theglory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.NIV: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may causethanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.Iver Larsen
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Paul Toseland toseland at blueyonder.co.uk
Sun Dec 28 16:09:10 EST 2003
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order [] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order Iver kindly listed the following versions of the hINA clause of 2 Cor 4:15>NET: so that the grace that is including more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to increase to the glory of God.>RSV: so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase>thanksgiving, to the glory of God.>REB: as the abounding grace of God is shared by more and more, the greater>may be the chorus of thanksgiving that rises to the glory of God.>TEV: and as God’s grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to the>glory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.>NIV: so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause>thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.> > All these versions seem to assume that the aorist participle PLEONASASA describes anongoing process, the extension of grace to more and more people. This process isportrayed as co-ordinated with another process, thanksgiving abounding to God’s glroy,which is described by the present subjunctive PERISSEUSHi. This seems very odd to me.Surely the perfective aspect of the aorist requires something like ‘so that grace, havingbecome abundant …’? Or am I missing something?Paul Toseland
[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order[] 2 Cor 4:15 – word order