Hello Folks, Lk 23:50-51 reads in NA27: Καί ιδού ανήρ ονόματι Ιωσήφ βουλευτής ὑπάρχων [καί] ανήρ αγαθός καί δίκαιος — οὕτος ουκ ῆν συγκατατεθειμένος τῇ βουλῇ καί τῇ πράξει αυτῶν — από ̔Αριμαθαίας πόλεως τῶν Ιουδαίων, ὅς προσεδέχετο τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ KAI IDOY ANHR ONOMATI IWSHF BOYLEYTHS hYPARXWN [KAI] ANHR AGAQOS KAI DIKAIOS — hOYTOS OYK HN SYGKATATEQEIMENOS THi BOYLHi KAI THi PRAKSEI AYTWN — APO hARIMAQAIAS POLEWS TWN IOYDAIWN, hOS PROSEDEXETO THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY The Byz differs at just 3 points, 1) omits bracketed [καί] [KAI], 2) smooth breathing for Αριμαθαίας ARIMAQAIAS and 3) the final clause, which reads: ὅς καί προσεδέχετο καί αυτός τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦhOS KAI PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY I will focus on this clause. I cannot fathom exactly what it means because I cannot construe both KAIs in the same clause. It looks like we have one too many KAIs here. Indeed, it seems that this is a conflate reading compounded of two other variants found in the NA27 apparatus: ὅς καί προσεδέχετο…hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO… and ὅς προσεδέχετο καί αυτός…hOS PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS… And all 3 readings seem to be derived from Mt 27:57 and Mk 15:43. The single KAI is easy to construe in the two readings above and the NA27 reading is perfectly plain. Does that make the Byz reading the lex difficillima? Can a conflate reading really be a lex difficillima? But more importantly, what does the double KAI mean here? Is this good Greek? The last two questions are what I would really like to see addressed here. The text critical questions are merely setup and will disappear if the Byz reading can be construed. Yours in His grace,Richard Ghilardi ____________________________________________________________ Groupon™ Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city’s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4dc03735dca82209d79st06vuc
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Hi Richard,
Oscar Wilde said that monogamy is one marriage too many. I think we have one KAI too many.
It could mean, “and he, as well as other people, was expecting this Kingdom, even this guy.”
Your font looks great, by the way.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
You can almost always bet tonight’s pizza with wine, breadsticks, salad and lemon ice (Tonight is Saturday, isn’t it?) that the Byz Maj text will never be the lectio difficilior. It tends to smooth things out grammatically and to gloss over perceived theological problems.
The biggest difficulty with the καίs KAIs here is the bracketed one in v 50 and even there it doesn’t introduce any particular problem though the attestation for it is slightly deficient. The Byz Maj adds καί KAI both before and after προσεδέχετο PROSEDEXETO which is not in the NA27. These do not appear to introduce any particular difficulty into the reading.
I would suggest that if you wish to keep the bracketed καί KAI in v 50 that the phrase should be understood as “both a good man and righteous.” the additional καίs KAIs in the Byz Maj v 51 seem to be placing a great deal of emphasis on the man Joseph ὃς καὶ προσεδέχετο καὶ αὐτὸς … hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO KAI AUTOS “who also even himself waited for …” george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 2:40:13 PM
Hello Folks,
Lk 23:50-51 reads in NA27:
Καί ιδού ανήρ ονόματι Ιωσήφ βουλευτής ὑπάρχων [καί] ανήρ αγαθός καί δίκαιος — οὗτος ουκ ῆν συγκατατεθειμένος τῇ βουλῇ καί τῇ πράξει αυτῶν — από Ἁριμαθαίας πόλεως τῶν Ιουδαίων, ὅς προσεδέχετο τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ KAI IDOY ANHR ONOMATI IWSHF BOYLEYTHS hYPARXWN [KAI] ANHR AGAQOS KAI DIKAIOS — hOYTOS OYK HN SYGKATATEQEIMENOS THi BOYLHi KAI THi PRAKSEI AYTWN — APO hARIMAQAIAS POLEWS TWN IOYDAIWN, hOS PROSEDEXETO THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY
The Byz differs at just 3 points: 1) omits bracketed [καί] [KAI], 2) smooth breathing for Αριμαθαίας ARIMAQAIAS and 3) the final clause, which reads: ὅς καί προσεδέχετο καί αυτός τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY.
I will focus on this clause. I cannot fathom exactly what it means because I cannot construe both KAIs in the same clause. I suppose it could mean, “and who himself was also awaiting the reign of God.” But then, wouldn’t the first KAI have to be to the left of hOS? This looks like awkward Greek to me with one too many KAIs here. Indeed, it seems that this is a conflate reading compounded of two other variants found in the NA27 apparatus:
ὅς καί προσεδέχετο… hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO… and ὅς προσεδέχετο καί αυτός… hOS PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS…
And all 3 readings are derived from Mk 15:43 and Mt 27:57. The single KAI is easy to construe in the two readings above and the NA27 reading is perfectly plain. Does that make the Byz reading the lex difficillima? Can a conflate reading really be the lex difficillima? But more importantly, what does the double KAI mean here? Is this good Greek? The last two questions are what I would really like to see addressed here. The text critical questions are merely setup and will disappear if the Byz reading can be construed.
Yours in His grace, Richard Ghilardi
To me, this text sounds quite fine and logical: the first KAI is putting the fact that IWSHF was waiting for the kingdom of God, in close relationship with the previous things said about him, i.e., council member… good and just… had not consented…: IWSHF… BOULEUTHS UPARXWN… AGAQOS… DIKAIOS… OUK HN… OS «KAI» PROSEDEXETO…; the second KAI must have the significance that his waiting for the kingdom of God was not a singular case: he himself, like others, was waiting for the kingdom of God.
Vasile Stancu
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
I think the Greek is acceptable. The first KAI can be replaced by DE. It sets up the sentence. The second KAI is similiar, it can be replaced by DE, setting up another sentence where ANHR represents ANHR ONOMATI IVSHF BOULEYTHS hYPARXVN from the previous KAI. The third KAI ties AGAQOS and DIKAIOS together.
John Sanders Suzhou, China
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
Hi Richard,
Oscar Wilde said that monogamy is one marriage too many. I think we have one KAI too many.
It could mean, “and he, as well as other people, was expecting this Kingdom, even this guy.”
Your font looks great, by the way.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
You can almost always bet tonight’s pizza with wine, breadsticks, salad and lemon ice (Tonight is Saturday, isn’t it?) that the Byz Maj text will never be the lectio difficilior. It tends to smooth things out grammatically and to gloss over perceived theological problems.
The biggest difficulty with the καίs KAIs here is the bracketed one in v 50 and even there it doesn’t introduce any particular problem though the attestation for it is slightly deficient. The Byz Maj adds καί KAI both before and after προσεδέχετο PROSEDEXETO which is not in the NA27. These do not appear to introduce any particular difficulty into the reading.
I would suggest that if you wish to keep the bracketed καί KAI in v 50 that the phrase should be understood as ”both a good man and righteous.” the additional καίs KAIs in the Byz Maj v 51 seem to be placing a great deal of emphasis on the man Joseph ὃς καὶ προσεδέχετο καὶ αὐτὸς … hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO KAI AUTOS “who also even himself waited for …” george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 2:40:13 PM
Hello Folks,
Lk 23:50-51 reads in NA27:
Καί ιδού ανήρ ονόματι Ιωσήφ βουλευτής ὑπάρχων [καί] ανήρ αγαθός καί δίκαιος – οὗτος ουκ ῆν συγκατατεθειμένος τῇ βουλῇ καί τῇ πράξει αυτῶν – από Ἁριμαθαίας πόλεως τῶν Ιουδαίων, ὅς προσεδέχετο τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ KAI IDOY ANHR ONOMATI IWSHF BOYLEYTHS hYPARXWN [KAI] ANHR AGAQOS KAI DIKAIOS — hOYTOS OYK HN SYGKATATEQEIMENOS THi BOYLHi KAI THi PRAKSEI AYTWN — APO hARIMAQAIAS POLEWS TWN IOYDAIWN, hOS PROSEDEXETO THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY
The Byz differs at just 3 points: 1) omits bracketed [καί] [KAI], 2) smooth breathing for Αριμαθαίας ARIMAQAIAS and 3) the final clause, which reads: ὅς καί προσεδέχετο καί αυτός τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS THN BASILEIAN TOY QEOY.
I will focus on this clause. I cannot fathom exactly what it means because I cannot construe both KAIs in the same clause. I suppose it could mean, “and who himself was also awaiting the reign of God.” But then, wouldn’t the first KAI have to be to the left of hOS? This looks like awkward Greek to me with one too many KAIs here. Indeed, it seems that this is a conflate reading compounded of two other variants found in the NA27 apparatus:
ὅς καί προσεδέχετο… hOS KAI PROSEDEXETO… and ὅς προσεδέχετο καί αυτός… hOS PROSEDEXETO KAI AYTOS…
And all 3 readings are derived from Mk 15:43 and Mt 27:57. The single KAI is easy to construe in the two readings above and the NA27 reading is perfectly plain. Does that make the Byz reading the lex difficillima? Can a conflate reading really be the lex difficillima? But more importantly, what does the double KAI mean here? Is this good Greek? The last two questions are what I would really like to see addressed here. The text critical questions are merely setup and will disappear if the Byz reading can be construed.
Yours in His grace, Richard Ghilardi
To me, this text sounds quite fine and logical: the first KAI is putting the fact that IWSHF was waiting for the kingdom of God, in close relationship with the previous things said about him, i.e., council member… good and just… had not consented…: IWSHF… BOULEUTHS UPARXWN… AGAQOS… DIKAIOS… OUK HN… OS «KAI» PROSEDEXETO…; the second KAI must have the significance that his waiting for the kingdom of God was not a singular case: he himself, like others, was waiting for the kingdom of God.
Vasile Stancu
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
I think the Greek is acceptable. The first KAI can be replaced by DE. It sets up the sentence. The second KAI is similiar, it can be replaced by DE, setting up another sentence where ANHR represents ANHR ONOMATI IVSHF BOULEYTHS hYPARXVN from the previous KAI. The third KAI ties AGAQOS and DIKAIOS together.
John Sanders Suzhou, China
href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org